With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

The Guardians left Larfleeze alone because he was generally harmless and effectively insane.

This Paul isn't.

That's completely incorrect.

In fact, there's an entire comic about this particular subject.

And that Paul is wrong because the Soul is still there.

 

I'm pretty sure it's still considered rape as it's forced consent. He forcibly rewrote her desires to gain the consent.

 

This doesn't bother me. Better having someone make people I'll like on purpose (and be right about what it is I'll like) than having evolution (the blind idiot god with no idea of nor concern for what I like) build everyone around me from the ground up for the purpose of annoying me. That part of FiO struck me as a perk, not a horror. Sorting people by who they'll enjoy being with seems like a good idea to me.

 

This Paul may still be insane, but unlike Larfleezes he's not content to stay on one planet and is actively seeking people to enslave. Larfleezes let people come to him.

Would like a link to that comic please.

It would still be possible to have the Blue, or any other color, Rings overwhelm this Paul that he loses his avarice and the rings stop working for him.

Assuming he doesn't have protection against that, which hopefully he doesn't, or the protections aren't powerful enough.

Paragon is immune, or at least extremely resistant, to emotional manipulation like that as shown when Krieger tried to use the Medusa Mask on him and failed because of his enlightenment.

Unfortunetly Zoat said there is nothing of their pre alteration self left, aside from things he copied from them and pasted there.

It may still be possible to view their recorded desires in the Honden, if they exist hopefully, and impose them on the brainwashed, or at least remove their loyalty to him.

 

Olie is a normal human, Diana is a demigod. If Tangseid says he had to literally burn the previous personality to make the new one, then you better believe it.

Also the orange light doesn't do pedestrian mind control, it literally heavily influences and changes the attendant soul construct (as Hinon said), Diana soul was changed to its core, its why there is no spell or mental influence to spunge, the change is permanent.

The only way to return a person back would be to go to a higher record of that that person was, in essence a cloud save equivalent... We could probably find one in each emotional spectrum equivalent of the Honden of Avarice and other similar records like the book of fate, anything else would fail.

 

He probably doesn't view it as a deeper evil. If he already murdered the old version and made a new one fully committed to fulfilling what he desires, does it particularly matter which of his desires the new version is fulfilling?

 

What a horrible thought. Could you imagine if Humanity's purpose was to please a single being. All our highs and lows, our sufferings and achievement, everything that has occurred since existence, all for something else's satisfaction

 

No, because they would incur unjustifiable losses and they had no way to beat him.

I'm very much interested in this mysterious comic of yours.

Changing one significant part still means that a significant part was changed. The system, or whole, or whatever, is not the same.

Moreover, the soul is not a one way street. (Or shouldn't be, anyway. I can't provide sources, but i think it makes sense, assuming continuity of the soul)

Besides,

 

That would be illegal...

Again, the soul is still there, like it or not they can be restored.

 

Some people would probably find it calming that everything humanity did and does actually has a purpose, as opposed to being entirely without intrinsic meaning.

 

This is kinda getting into religious territory, which I’m leery of entering. If our entire existence was for the viewing pleasure of some being, it would follow they created/allowed our existence. So unless you think the human race’s suffering outweighs the positive of it existing at all, this being is still in my good books.

 

Yeah, it matters. His reasoning for doing so was to advance society. Making her his sex toy does not help with that goal. It's the difference between stealing a piece of bread to feed your family and stealing to feed your gluttony.

 

Surely it's more like the difference between stealing bread and setting fire to it?

 

Point. I'll drop it

 

No, he did it to fulfil his desire to advance society, not just for the sake of advancing society in itself. Because it pleased him, not because it did good - as such, other actions that please him is still entirely within the purpose for which he murdered the old versions. Plus, it's two birds with one stone - if you are murdering people and reshaping them however you want, might as well get everything out of doing so.

 

Fair enough. The debate here seems to be about whether it's setting fire to the bread or not. Most people seem to agree the bread is ash.

 

Hence why they would wait till Gantheter makes some Blue Lanterns.

Green Lantern Vol 4 chapter 42 + (Which would be the 2005 run.)

The soul is read only.

And hell, Paul's mistaken ideas aside, it's actually canon from Blackest Night/Brightest Day that orange possession doesn't actually effect the soul.

 

Souls are not immutable, though. At least not in the WTR.

 

I suppose the comic has no name, serial number, publisher, writer, illustrator, colourist, date of publication or any other identifying features either.

Oh. Guess I was ninja'ed. Sorry.

Well, that would mean everyone goes to Heaven since none of their sins matter, after all the soul is 'read only'.

And there's a difference between possession and a new identity. Even then, I assume they were restored back to their original state.

Also, I'm sorry if I was unnecessarily antagonistic. I'm going through a depressive episode since the last four days, and putting up with my emotionally abusive family and not shouting my head off at them is very taxing, so that might have made me even more irritable. That apology is for everyone, by the way.

 

So quick question Mr. Zoat is Wonder Woman the only female heroine he's manipulated into sleeping with him or she just his main squeeze with plenty of girls on the side?

I think we all agree that what he's done is fucked up on multiple levels but can it get any worse? For example is he grooming younger heroines to be future bed mates, is he breeding the very few kryptonians to expand their number or is he creating hybrids with other alien races, has he instilled himself as some sort of Pope King and wears a cape and big hat as a symbol of his status?

 

I disagree. I can understand why it fits with this Paul's character, I just don't agree with that last part. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should, and it doesn't mean that if you do that it isn't any worse than if you hadn't.

 

That would arguably be no less evil than what Mindrapaul did in the first place. Because even the Illustress can't recreate what is gone, only extrapolate abd create new desires based on parallel versions of these people whose divergence he doesn't exactly know. Maybe he could use powerful mind reading allies to help him create values that align with their pre-mindrape memories. But in the end it would still be killing existing innocent people and replacing them with new ones.

If my understanding of the Illustress' methods os correct, then he would likely either kill or brand Mindrapaul and then edit all his victims to a very limited extent of severing their direct emotional ties to Mindrapaul, making them forget they had them in the first place, and giving them some basic protection against the ensuing mental trauma. Then he would take care to fix all the power vacuums and non-functional systems that Mindrapaul's sudden disappearance causes out of a feeling of personal responsibility. And then he would feel awful about the whole thing, take all orange rings and lanterns from that galaxy, and never visit again. Until years later someone from there comes to his parallel and convinces him to fix stuff he broke that didn't even know about the first time around.

I assume the amount he influenced to be loyal to him or his longer term goals are far fewer.

 

In my opinion, if you started reshaping people to the degree of the murder of their old self, the exact shape of them afterwards and what you do with them doesn't matter, you already frontloaded all your badness. But I can see why it's an arguable position.

 

You could just tell us the comic series, issue, and page, and leave any potentially illegal activities to others.

 

Diana was a somewhat special case.

It can always get worse.

The school is intended to teach his preferred form of superheroing and indoctrinate them in his methodology. He only opts for mind control when there's a 'good' operational reason. That said, the form of mind alteration he performs generally leaves them at least somewhat open to the idea.

No, as that would be wantonly inefficient.

Not at present.

No. While he's known as a superhero on Earth, there are plenty of people who have never heard of him. He isn't considered all that significant by the general public.

Sort of. It's more that they now agree with his ideas rather than slavish loyalty to whatever he's saying at the moment.

 

The humane and probably only solution to the mind altered heroes is to kill them and set up new heroes to help the world. As this Paul essentially set up his own Justice Lord's and are most likely have a similar reputation to the unaltered public, If not I'd the fact everyone was mind altered would destroy any good reputation these heroes have. Another entity that could deal with this Lantern is Heaven, having a Soul now could be his downfall. Heaven were the only people to have killed Paul, they have a good track record with dealing with Pauls

 

They do! That's the whole point of the Great Secret of Hell, you can leave at any time.

No, their original selves actually showed up proving the other things were just orange light created copies.

 

I'd say that it would be less evil since he wouldn't be making them into sex slaves.

I agree with your stated solution to this problem.

 

They may not have even noticed what he's doing and they may not see it as necessary to intervene. We know angels can have odd priorities in the DC comics universes.

Also even if this Paul dies he could still go to a pagan afterlife where his actions may not be considered so bad, or he could have had Circe set up some kind of ressurection system for him.

And while what Vaermina said about about leaving Hell and going to Heaven may be possible, I'm pretty sure you have to repent to do that.

Being tortured every single moment makes it difficult for people to repent.

If this version somehow ends up in Hell then I don't see him repenting as he may not believe he did anything wrong.

 

It's not like he left the Right Eye of Zoltec behind.