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"Realistic" superpower martial arts?

Discussion in 'General' started by TanaNari, Sep 27, 2016.

  1. TanaNari

    TanaNari Verified Dick

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    As opposed to unrealistic ones, right?

    Anywho, here's the scenario. Low level powers setting- closer to Modern Supernatural stories than even Marvel in terms of power level. Not some "suddenly, powers!" setting. The human race has had a long time to adapt itself and its cultures to making Imbued a part of their society. Mostly as gods, sometimes as saints, and sometimes as normal people with abnormal skills.

    So, what kind of combat styles would change or evolve in this world, and the how and why? Not so much for normal people, but in Power v Power combat. Normals vs Powers is one of those 'Step one: discharge your firearm. Hope it works. Step two: if step one doesn't work, discharge your bowels and hope they take pity." At the same time, there's an inherent limit in how strong a being can be before combat becomes "fuck physics entirely", so let's put a cap of "spiderman"- any stronger than that, and any applicable logic collapses.


    Logic dictates a few things about certain abilities. And I'm putting them into broad classifications for these purposes. Very specific, rare, powers will not likely have generalized combat styles. And some powers have no potential style at all (like a girl with the power to change her hair color at will... if you can find a way to weaponize that, you're better than me- and, no, she can't select 'glows so bright it burns out the retina' as a color).

    This is going to be about fairly common power archetypes that could conceivably be possessed by enough fighters to develop and maintain styles built around them. Method means less than result in this case- doesn't matter what type of attack you have, just that you have an attack.

    As well as styles intended to beat those combat styles. 'Magically have the power that automatically nulls the opposing power' is not an option as a counter. It works, sure, but it's not a strat that can be counted on all the time.

    The goal is to build a library of combat styles that experienced fighters learned and passed, in the way our world has.

    PS- we're assuming an intent to engage in combat, for the most part nonlethal. Because most supers can probably do more damage with guns than they can with their powers. Any answer of "run away" or "shoot it", while no doubt valid tactics for other purposes, are considered fail conditions for the purpose of martial arts strategies. The challenge is 'what strategy most likely results in a win using this ability'.


    Truthsaying- Not a martial arts thing, but there are a *lot* power powers that can double as lie detection. Imbued and those who deal with them tend to focus on the 'how to lie while still telling the truth' a lot... because people who want to lie generally want to get away with it. Not strictly a martial art, but diplomacy and deception are powerful parts of war in general.

    Levitation/flight- A common enough power that I imagine martial arts built around it. By my logic, it takes the "footwork" out of your combat style- and footwork is pretty much the core of any combat style. I picture a very kick heavy combat style, for those whose flight allows them to "anchor" themselves in the air. And for those who have soft levitation, maneuverability will focus on use of walls rather than the floor for leverage. Or perhaps using hands for the maneuverability and pushing off walls, while using the legs for their reach, strength and lack of important organs.

    Counter-Style would essentially be to attempt flanking maneuvers. Legs have power and reach, but they're not nearly as agile or versatile as arms. If you can keep yourself to the side, rather than in front, of your opponent, you can probably avoid the worst of it. Confined spaces which deny flying out of reach may also be helpful.

    Strength- Super strength combat sounds straightforward, and perhaps it is for some, but powered strength doesn't necessarily come with lessened agility. Strong characters can likely do things like jump several times further without other powers, and absorb impact damage better. Krav Maga philosophy of taking small injuries to disable an opponent so you don't risk work would benefit them greatly. Grappling would likely be both more effective and less deadly than punching.

    Counter- Avoid close quarters. It's bad.

    Agility- Ironically, I think agility powers lend themselves better to the 'punch the crap out of your enemy' strategy. Speed usually means getting more hits in, and getting hit less. If you're not stronger than human, you'll only be able to quickly end a fight by striking fast and perhaps lethally. Joint breaks are likely the best method these guys have.

    Counter- Grapples are okay, tight confined spaces are probably best.

    Regeneration/Durability- Good ol' fashioned tanks. Assuming no other powers, how does one translate pure damage reduction into its own specialized style? You know, past the 'don't bother blocking, just draw attention to yourself and soak hits so your allies don't have to'.

    Counter- Grappling makes a lot of sense. If you can't do enough damage to put them down, then you need a way to pin them down.

    Range Damage- Energy blasts, throwing rocks at super speed... yes, firearms... As a combat style, it's mainly about forcing your enemy to leave cover and get hit, or pinning them behind cover while you spam attacks and get into a better position.

    Counter- Moving through cover, breaking line of sight.

    Point Blank Damage- A lot of powers are touch range. Electric eel, claws, venomous fangs, the list goes on forever.

    Counter- I imagine this and other power types invite a certain hesitation to get into touch range fights without some kind of protection. Gloves and boots aren't just decoration for supers- they're a way to avoid acidic death.

    Nondetection- I mean, beyond the obvious "Sneak Attack!", what methodology would an invisible combatant use?

    Counter- AoE attacks, mostly. If everything explodes, your enemy is part of 'everything'.

    AoE attacks- Make sure your target is in the general area. Catch them in the effect. Or, perhaps, use the AoE to force them out from cover and make them available for a hit.

    Counter- Not usually the kind of attack that can be avoided. So plan your approach to include taking a hit and removing your attacker before you can be hit a second time.

    Combat Precognition, Probability Manipulation- You do what your power tells you to do, I think. That's kinda what these powers do, hand the user a cheat sheet.

    Counter- Overwhelm the power. If you can throw enough obstacles in a short enough time, their power might falter and let you get a decisive hit in.


    So, what do you guys think as far as ways to improve this list or add specific details to it?
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2016
  2. Sol Lazarus

    Sol Lazarus Lynx of ill repute

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    While I have not much to say, and this post can safely be disregarded if you thought of this in the same or more detail, I think a important distiction is the average strength of each user.
    Sure there's probaly someone who can call down meteors but I doubt most of that style of power get beyond flamelance or some derivative, fireball if that kind of power is uncommen enough that there is less high end users.
    The biggest issue I can think of is teaching anyone, even prodigies, in a single lifetime to the height of their power if the school only has experince with people who take years to light a candle, to continue the analogue.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2016
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  3. MerelysSoul

    MerelysSoul Warning: Tends to irreverent in most situations.

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    I would say look at the Bene Gesserit and how their powers work. Also Enlightenment Superpower would be another sources to look at.
     
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  4. seeing_octarine

    seeing_octarine Unverified Colour

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    Challenge Accepted.

    If it works via changing pigmentation, then there's all sorts of potential chemistry and poison producing applications. Possibly implying she has a few required secondary powers (immune to whatever pigment her hair is currently using) that are of more interest. If it works via bullshit appearance magic, then growing her hair as long as possible and becoming a camouflage master sounds potentially viable.
     
  5. Prince Charon

    Prince Charon Just zis guy, you know?

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    Simpler idea, that does not involve adding to the power beyond the given description: She rapidly alters the colour and pattern of her hair as a distraction.
     
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  6. 2 Hot Crown Subdues the Sinful

    2 Hot Crown Subdues the Sinful Aris

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    First: Civilization wouldn't exist in a world with superpowers, go read a wuxia novel, TanaNari.

    Ignoring that, however:
    Can detect feints and might even as a way to predict moves depending on how it detects lies. So maybe a technical style?
    Strong core focus and a lot of spins for extra oomph, as well as adding flight acceleration in the directions of the blow. Killiest style, fast and strong.

    High mobility, awareness of surroundings, and good at disengaging and increasing distance. Might rely on aikido or other throwing MA to put people who closing down long enough to get away, or "punish them" for thinking rushing into close-range would help.
    Heavy blows if they are very non-detectable, along with standard finesse weapons, and blows to the spine. A Hammer to the throat would be a good killy weapon.
    Similar to ranged.
     
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  7. 2 Hot Crown Subdues the Sinful

    2 Hot Crown Subdues the Sinful Aris

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    Aggressive style, don't let your opponent come up with clever shit. You have the better reflexes, force your opponent to act on instinct. Keep pressing and don't let up.
     
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  8. seeing_octarine

    seeing_octarine Unverified Colour

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    Now I'm no expert on this. You might even say I have no idea what I'm talking about. But from everything that everyone credible has ever told me: thou shalt not show your back to an enemy in close combat. It's apparently just asking to be killed or something. The only ones who would get away with it are the agility/superspeed guys.
     
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  9. 2 Hot Crown Subdues the Sinful

    2 Hot Crown Subdues the Sinful Aris

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    Rock Lee spinning, where you're going really fast and are at least a good 5 meters away from your opponent when your back is to them. Also, vertical spinning for flying drop-kicks. The spins would be flight-powered, and like all other hits would have the flight's acceleration added to the direction of the blow. Unless your flying doesn't have that much fine control and you fly more like a helicopter or a bird or a plane.
     
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  10. Prince Charon

    Prince Charon Just zis guy, you know?

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    That depends very much on the level of power available, how common it is, and other factors that I am too tired to think of.
     
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  11. 2 Hot Crown Subdues the Sinful

    2 Hot Crown Subdues the Sinful Aris

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    It was a reference to a comment made in high-noon.
     
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  12. Vashon

    Vashon Earnest Voice Gone for Good

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    Telekinesis of even the lowly level seen in say Looper or Push could be highly destabilizing.


    Something on the scale of Chronicle? Its only a matter of time before one of them has a problem with society, and realizes that throwing a car is in the ballpark of the same force it takes to pop a mans head from a mile away.


    Congratulations, politicians of all sides now have extremely shortened life spans. The superhere genre of "Fightin Crimes" is bullshit. Anyone with Batmans cause and resources isnt going to punch thugs in the face, its a waste of time. GPD and organized crime have more than enough resources to fix that kind of problem themselves. Batman would be an assassin, and the rich and powerful would be his targets. And he wouldnt even do all of the killing, just the hard target stuff of blasting right though security teams, and leaving demands after every hit.


    But since it might well be impossible to depict Bruce Wayan turning into Patrick Bateman/The Lannisters, it wont happen.

    But thats the truth of it.
     
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  13. TanaNari

    TanaNari Verified Dick

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    Spoken like someone who has no damn clue how civilization works.

    Superhumans would cause problems, but also solve them. For every city wiped out by a superhuman war, there's another created by a weather manipulator. There's the person immune to the powers of others who defeats the enemy champion with an army at his back to defend him from the enemy's soldiers. There's the mystic who crafts Excalibur and puts it in the hands of the future king.

    List goes on and on, but powers doesn't mean lone wolf sociopaths roaming the wastelands. It means civilizations building themselves to worship the gods who summon water or purge disease or take up arms against enemy gods.

    To say nothing of the mind controllers, super-ninjas, teleporters and oracles who *really* add to the need for advanced organization. What you get is, essentially, the ancient myths as reality instead of fiction.

    Long as you don't have Superman grade powerhouses out there, you're golden.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2016
  14. Vashon

    Vashon Earnest Voice Gone for Good

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    You mean you? Quickly, how would you stop say, Superman, from killing all of your politicians? Without superheroes yourselves.


    Your comment reminds me of a thread somewhere once about what if humanity became saiyans. Answer is the thuggish and the habitually violent rule the world. So the next king shit of mt.Earth would likely be found in a supermax prison.


    Now Batman? He is literally one guy. Just beating up random thugs by his lonesome wouldnt do shit. Not in a city the size of Gotham. He cant possibly have enough impact. Now start knocking off mobsters at the top, corrupt police chiefs, sgt's, the occasional deputy, and local politician s? Well first they turtle up and declare the man an outlaw. Maybe even call in assistance because how dare this man upset the natural order and truly hold someone accountable.


    But they keep dying, and eventually all the little guys start realizing a very easy way to live. Dont be an asshole. So the IA dpt starts prosecuting cops and the higher up, stripping them of assets and putting them in prison for hefty terms. And nobody fights it, because going to prison keeps you alive. And you eventually have some patsy like Gordon at the top, not to take a hit but as a signal. Most small time cops just get small fines or what not, but anyone with authority over other cops who participated in this shit? Out of the force or demoted.


    And the mobsters? They cut the worst of the violence out, send a few of their own to jail as a token of peace, while working with the police to solve certain murders and snitch on thieves. Well some of them do. The rest keep dying and getting assassinated until their underlings outright abandon them. Thats what happens when a super hero decides to be stealthy and effective.
     
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  15. Vashon

    Vashon Earnest Voice Gone for Good

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    All of that absolutely means modern civilization gets flattened fairly quickly. Even Garth Ennis' The Boyz level supes would be insanely disruptive. Crappy as they were.


    These arent Lone Wolf sociopaths, these are Lone Wolf Political Activist. And they can organize too.
     
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  16. TanaNari

    TanaNari Verified Dick

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    You don't know how to read, either.


    Seriously, though... politicians get assassinated all the time... it kinda came with the job up until very recently in human history- sorta makes me long for ye olden days in that regard. Civilizations survive on wealth, inertia, and community. Superhumans will have parents, siblings, lovers, children who aren't superhumans, and governments have the resources to make their elites happy. They'll have plenty of reasons to stand loyally with their countrymen (some, again, not powered) against enemies.

    They also may be treated as living gods, and thus get their asses kissed for being awesome in battle. It worked for Rome for quite a while. A proper world power could potentially afford hundreds of people with powers serving them... which makes powers just another factor in organized military conflicts after a certain point of development. And before that point, they're the source of all those stories with gods clashing with one another whilst the mortals cower in their mud-fields and then prostrate themselves before the victor.

    Doesn't mean civilizations won't collapse. But, statistically, far more civilizations have collapsed throughout history than have survived. Others take their places pretty quickly, and always have.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2016
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  17. Sol Lazarus

    Sol Lazarus Lynx of ill repute

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    Another way to go about it is a defensive style based on crowd cotrol (example: directing someone punching you to hit someone else) or using the environment or traps set ahead of time based on what you percieve someone is going to do.
     
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  18. 2 Hot Crown Subdues the Sinful

    2 Hot Crown Subdues the Sinful Aris

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    Also, people in general died much more easily. It's one of the reasons why the whole "shelter", "basic sanitation", "rare death by childbirth thank to more advanced medicine" and "easier to grow and distribute food" things tend precede population explosions. People not dying also means people surviving to have more children.

    People died like animals back in the day. Supers aren't gonna change that, and might even improve on it by using their powers to build better infrastructure.
     
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  19. TanaNari

    TanaNari Verified Dick

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    That, too.

    There's a reason why healers are the gods which other gods worship.
     
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  20. 2 Hot Crown Subdues the Sinful

    2 Hot Crown Subdues the Sinful Aris

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    I thought other gods worshiped the god with the boss-est beard?
     
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  21. TanaNari

    TanaNari Verified Dick

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    Well, that too, but then the healer is usually his mom. Or daughter. Or sister. Or wife. Or possibly all four, gods are weird like that.

    In my setting, I assume most of them are only related by adoption, which makes the rest of it make sense.
     
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  22. DoggySoup

    DoggySoup I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    Ignoring the fuck out of every post but the OP, Martial arts are really, really complex. They are Religious, Practical, Self expressive, So many things. Thy are limited by weaknesses and strengths of the body, built to cooperate with the laws and morals of the time.

    I'd say at the least there would be several variants on popular arts with later creations being created top down to deal with some of the more alien matchups, like Flying Laser-Eyes Man VS Timmy Tentacles of Goop.

    Take influence from existing martial arts, like Striking Arts, Grappling Arts, hell even features of firefighting (like Pie the Hole and Suppressive fire).
     
  23. TanaNari

    TanaNari Verified Dick

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    Well, that's the idea, but I only have so much ability to Know All The Things, and there are dozens if not hundreds of combat styles out there, and I doubt I know the names of even half of them.

    Now, a conversation on kickboxing or aikido, I can do that... those are arts I have practice with, and I know the history of Jeet Kun Do and a few of the more popular MMA styles, like Krav Maga.

    But, the variation of this over on SB, someone brought up the combat styles built around fencing, and how they might translate to touch based powers- I never would have thought to look in that direction.


    PS- right, I forgot the stronger pre and postcogs, who can pull information out of their psychic asses, have caused a lot of organizations to become clandestine to the point where a lot of military or militant organizations refuse to name themselves, to make it more difficult for the psychics to get a "lock" on them.

    Names Are Dangerous.
     
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  24. DoggySoup

    DoggySoup I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    Making this a seperate because OP already liked my last post and posted;

    This is about Price, right? Okay, Some examples.

    Let's say you're in a tussle with somebody like Chloe. Or well, Chloe's flight. It could be Gary Gravity-changer, or Wanda Walk-on-Walls, or even Samuel Stands-stuff. The End result is that you're fighting at a height and angle difference, probably 90/180 degrees unless the walls and ceilings are angled or they've done so themselves.

    The most obvious change is that kicks and leg grabs have no value, due to reach issues.

    However, Armpits, arm and neck grabs still have value. You'd have potentially more leverage with arms to use holds or break/dislocate them.

    And from the side, directional kicks and haymakers become uppercuts/overhands.

    A second example is Loup-Garou. He and his pack are never going to join punching/kicking arts because the potential is just lost. Grappling, Open palm styles would be their forte, but they'd need to watch because a long snout means that their chin now becomes even more of a liability if grabbed.
     
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  25. TanaNari

    TanaNari Verified Dick

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    Well, I intend to use it for Price, but it can exist as a multipurpose tool. Mine is hardly the only setting in the universe with flying bricks and werewolves.
     
  26. Conu

    Conu Dazed and confused?

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    There are a few variables that would really alter the paradigm.

    Are these powers hereditary? If so then martial arts are going to be developed by clans and families. They will be designed to specifically counter the nearest/most common opponents. Hereditary super powers are also going to disrupt what we know as modern civilisation. Kings and nobles would actually have better blood than the common folk, concepts like egalitarianism would never evolve because they are intrinsically flawed. On the other hand eugenics would actually be a valid field of study.

    If they aren't inheritable (or particularly inheritable) then I would assume there would be a lot of different learning/training paradigms. Martial arts schools, warrior castes (like samurai), militaries both national (Sparta, Rome) and private (house soldiers serving a noble, mercenary companies), religious groups training up their warriors, cults doing all sorts of shit, tribes inventing arts for their hunters. The list is endless, each would tailor their training to meet their needs. The rise and fall of nations would disseminate techniques and methods. People would innovate to overcome a new enemy or maybe delve into history and recreate older training regimes. But the techniques developed by Sparta (nobility, armed and armoured, cohesive standing army, raiding and set battles) would be completely different to those created by a Buddhist Monastery (poor, unarmed, small groups, defense and law enforcement).

    Do these powers manifest in a sudden fashion, like X-men mutants? Or are they the product of study and practice like Ranma 1/2 martial arts? Can a person choose (through study/training etc) what sort of power they get?

    The training versus sudden empowerment would provide a large selection bias on candidates. I don't know how many people have met Olympic competitors but the sheer amount of work they do is phenomenal. Most normal people just do not have the drive to train that hard and that consistently. Most don't have the time or resources either. If power scales with training and effort then that changes the playing field. Access to resources and pure determination would define power level far more than inherent skill.

    Just a few thoughts, hope they help :)
     
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  27. TanaNari

    TanaNari Verified Dick

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    Well, can't speak for other settings, but in mine we're dealing with x-men spontaneous manifestation without the hereditary features. Really, it's like selling your soul to the devil, complete with Monkey's Paw type backlashes for toying with powers not meant for mortal beings. Powers are for the desperate and the stupid.

    No means to really control what abilities you get- they're reflections of the recipient's inner nature. "You don't get what you want, you get who you are" logic.

    I think this means that serious martial arts techniques for superhumans in my setting would be rather recent developments. In the modern world, there's enough people to have a critical mass of students with similar enough powersets to supply elite schools and military training programs. Plus the advantages of modern communications and travel technologies.

    Other settings could certainly have much longer running traditions... but, if nothing else, Bruce Lee showed 'tradition' and 'effective' don't always line up all that well... and a great many modern martial arts have proven that.

    So I'd figure any setting with similar power levels and a modern setting would come to similar conclusions about superhuman combat techniques.
     
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  28. Nerx

    Nerx HOORNGH!

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    I would add endless stamina and stamina/sustenance drain for those opting for attrition or preserverance methods.

    Considering most bouts tend to go about 25-36 (45) minutes in pro fights so the one with the lesser gas tank would not be able to do the crazy moves, or basic ones.

    Death from exhaustion is a very real thing, on the balance side they can still get knocked the fuck out or out zoned.

    Being caught off guard works too, but if they get the prep they can make others too tired to walk or pick up weapons.
     
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  29. Nerx

    Nerx HOORNGH!

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    Tbh in fight mechanics its also easier to knock someone out when they are exhausted, seen in boxing, kickboxing/muay thai and MMA
     
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  30. The-Lewd-Dude

    The-Lewd-Dude Experienced.

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    I've been putting a lot of thought into how superpowers would affect combat, mostly cause I'm a shonen nut and I have a dual love for wacky over-the-top fights and brutal blood-soaked less fight and more prolonged murder fests, so this topic is certainly interesting to me. bare in mind I have like to next to no knowledge of actual combat beyond what I pick up from said shonen nuttiness, so take everything I say with a grain of salt
    other people have mentioned distractions, I figure you could also do something like induce a seizure by rapidly flashing colors. another one would be to try to grow out and camouflage your hair, put some knives in the ends and start doing some rope dart-type stuff but with an invisible rope.
    well there's the classic sherlock scan style of fighting, read their body langue and use that for counters. you could also do something similar to spiderman and fuck with their heads, intentionally pissing them off to make them more predictable or even defuse the conflict and remove the need to fight in the first place.
    DIVEKICK! but more seriously, grapples would get a lot of mileage. kind of hard to counter gravity and all that. hell, you want some lore? a flyer saw a bird pick up a turtle and toss it onto the ground to break its shell and was inspired.
    alternatively, go all-in on close quarters, don't let him get a full swing out, and stay right in his face and super-strength doesn't necessarily mean invulnerable. get them to punch something they shouldn't like live wires or support beams.

    I got more but I need to go.