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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Discussion in 'Creative Writing' started by Mr Zoat, Jan 27, 2019.

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  1. Prince Charon

    Prince Charon Just zis guy, you know?

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    Yes, but he has super-speed, so he can catch them.
     
  2. david

    david Getting sticky.

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    I wouldn't call Red Son "unaltered" seeing as how
    he is (a highly evolved) human rather than kryptonian.
     
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  3. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    True, but i was thinking more along the lines of him, Red Son, not receiving any additional powers or a boost to his already existing powers like DC 1.000.000 Superman did and only having the powers that were granted to him by evolution.
     
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  4. Stsword

    Stsword Versed in the lewd.

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    There is no evidence that Superman 1 mill got anything beyond what he got naturally from his millenia of sundipping.

    The idea that he breached the Source Wall was based on nothing but a metaphor about the expression on his face looking like he had gone past the gates of Heaven and still hadn't found what he was looking for.

    Funny tidbit in the Grounded storyline, they made Superman Vandal Savage's origin. So in that story, Vandal is 50 thousand years old off of kryptonian longevity and healing factor bestowed on him by time lost Sunstone.

    As for kryptonian longevity, Superman 1 mill has nothing on Superman Null. He outlived his universe. Which he kept from dying until his only companion, a god, died.
     
  5. nick012000

    nick012000 Gone for Good

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    Don't forget the Southern Poverty Law Center.

    Of course, she probably can take the heat, because a good chunk of people would just file it away under "Left-wing group says that something's racist again"... and I think that things might be starting to stray into modern politics (even if all the groups involved are well over 20 years old), so I'll just stop there.
     
  6. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    I thought that Superman 1 mil was the one from All Star Superman that got a massive dose of sunlight when he saved those astronauts.
     
  7. Stsword

    Stsword Versed in the lewd.

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    Why assume there is only one timeline that can result in Superman 1 million in the DC multiverse?

    Electric Warriors tied in Kamandi Last Boy on Earth, DC 1 Million, and the post-rebirth Legion of Superheroes.
     
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  8. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    Zoat is Circe the daughter of Helios in your story like in the myths, or was that something she made up or someone else made up and was simply recorded?
     
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  9. icsm

    icsm Your first time is always over so quickly, isn't it?

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    Think of it as Natural Selection applied to religion. A cult that believes suicide to be the worst thing you can do is much more likely to stick around and spread itself than a cult that believes suicide to be benefitial.
     
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  10. Mquz

    Mquz Versed in the lewd.

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    Seems like she might have been a priestess or something? Though her powers don’t come from him, so probably not.
     
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  11. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    I was thinking that Hecate gave her her powers because of her heritage, or maybe she saw some potential in Circe.
     
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  12. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    I haven't thought about it.
     
  13. TheMidnightRook

    TheMidnightRook Well worn.

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    He has super-speed when the writers bother to remember to give it too him. And really, he should be able to snatch the gun away before they can even pull the trigger, like The Flash sometimes does, there aren't any riccochets if the gun never fires.
     
  14. Imperator Pax

    Imperator Pax Talon Master

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    Technically thats a misconception, on pretty much all levels.

    Suicide in Catholic Theology primarily puts the mortal sin bits of why suicide is bad is doing it out of despair because you can't repent if you're dead. For example if you kill yourself trying to do something i.e. you're aware that this has a good chance of killing me / probably will kill me but you're doing it because X i.e. fire fighters, or soldiers in war the catholic church's opinion is its not a sin. If you take a fistful of pills and vodka because of a bad break up its a sin. (This was a big deal back in World War II for plane and ship crews as well as soldiers in general, but also again later in Vietnam)

    Valhal's entry requirements further just requires you to be dead by weapons or the result of an enemy. We see this recorded in the saga were a norse men leaps upon a bed of spears, after telling his captors to tell his step mother to tell her sons he died well. He doesn't die in what we would conventionally consider battle, but is still accorded the status of valiant dead. Similarly men sacrified (by hanging) to Odin are generally thought to end up in Valhal. Secondly while we have less conclusive proof in later surviving material its probable the at there were other Norse afterlives besides the two options of going to Odin or Hel. ANd quite frankly Hel's Nifleheim is more like the Greek Erebus than it is the Christian tradition of Hell.
     
  15. TheEyes

    TheEyes Well worn.

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    Does he believe he is in charge of the League then? Because the League is in charge of the Team and its membership, last I was aware of. Did OL launch a coup?

    Even if he were in charge, this was a very presumptuous decision to force on both the Team and the League. Creating buy in by keeping lines of communication open and discussing decisions before making them is a basic part of teamwork; you'd think that after the most recent episode in Vega that Paul wouldn't forget that so quickly.
     
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  16. Mquz

    Mquz Versed in the lewd.

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    Yeah, but going into a dangerous situation isn’t suicide - you never intend to die. You just prioritize a cause over survival. I’d still say suicide bombing/ kamikaze is different.
     
  17. Imperator Pax

    Imperator Pax Talon Master

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    And I'd agree, but I think thats probably a generational shift in values, versus how people looked at it in 1930 versus 70 years later
     
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  18. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    I am convinced that Zoat may one day write a scenario where Pauls thoughtless actions lead to something bad happening and he will have to rethink how he goes about doing things. Such as telling the people who he technically works fro that he is bringing a nazi into one of their bases where their students, several of which fall under the category of people her philosophy encourages her to kill, live, without removing her powers.
    Yeah after the whole Vega incident and the lack of communication you would think that OL would try to increase how much he cooperates and communicates with people.
    Though when i read that episode and what followed i was reminded of OL and the Nabu incident. He could have potentially worked out a way to get Giovanni back without killing Nabu, such as asking Aquaman to recommend several mages that could serve as hosts. He wanted to go less bloodshed and genocide on Vega after his first genocide and may have let the Psions go if they released their prisoners, which would have been bad as i can't help but imagine them going to the Reach and making weapons to fight the OLC, such as potentially figuring out a way to make their soldiers power ring proof, like that golden skinned pirate lady that attacked that peace conference in Vega was and OL gave her to the Psions, though i guess she died with most of everyone on the Psion homeworld.
    I am also pretty sure that OL similarly thought that now he knows how the League felt when he didn't communicate with them about getting rid of Nabu.
     
  19. Imperator Pax

    Imperator Pax Talon Master

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    To expound on this, in NOrse mythology, Odin cheats to get the best warriors to his side, and the other gods repeatedly call him out on this.

    ANd his excuse is 'yeah but Ragnarok, and Loki's bastard wolf child.' So basically the idea is Odin will probably make you lose at some point. This is also a point why in later Norse society why Beserkers (associated with Odin) are generally the bad guy because they're blessed/ cursed to be immune to steel and fire (though that depends on myth and tradition)
     
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  20. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    That's not actually a hard and fast rule. Remember how Richard, Wallace and Kaldur tried recruiting Speedy in canon? And how Batman's opening introduction didn't mention recruitment authority, just training and mission assignment? The League can certainly drop people off, but... At this point the team has enough experience to basically handle things themselves.
    Not talking to the League is why Zatara isn't still a Nabu hatstand. Vega was more about taking his eye off the ball, which he isn't doing on Earth.
     
  21. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    Zatara could still have stopped being a Nabu hatstand if OL had talked to Orin and asked him to recommend some mages who could serve as hosts to Nabu.
     
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  22. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    Want to guess how many top-tier Atlantean mages would be remotely interested in that sort of pact?
     
  23. Galler

    Galler Not too sore, are you?

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    You have it the wrong way round, Zatara couldn't do anything. Its Nabu who could have stopped possessing Zatara. By the point that OL and every one involved in Team Nabu were ready to discuss there plans with the League they were all too angry. Enough so that they were seeing everything to do with Nabu in its worst light.
     
  24. Stsword

    Stsword Versed in the lewd.

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    Actually Circe claimed her father was Hyperion in the comics, so it seems the ancient Greeks confused their solar deities there.

    So she's related by marriage to Lilith Clay, who is the daughter of Hyperion's wife.
     
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  25. TheEyes

    TheEyes Well worn.

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    I can't imagine that the actual governance structure of the Team is that informal. After all, Wayne is one of the founders; if nothing else, he'd want to have an official structure so he could keep some of the looser cannons, like Robin and OL, in line.
    Both of these are disingenuous arguments. OL didn't talk to the League about Nabu because he had reason to believe that the mind controlling alien artifact had compromised the League. Is he now thinking that the Jewish Defamation League has mind controlled the Justice League?

    As for Vega, is that what OL took away from the incident? That anyone can do anything they want, and it's the people who might object whose responsibility it is to keep him in line? That's basically Vandal Savage morality, and a big departure from the guy who generally wanted to be helpful and non-threatening.
     
  26. Cuchulin

    Cuchulin Versed in the lewd.

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    He also knew that the Justice League had a very different view of Nabu than him due to the legacy Kent Nelson and them being mostly unaware of there being much of difference between Doctor Fate with Nabu more or less in charge and with out. So even if none of the League members were compromised there was a good chance they would compromise his effort to free Zatara by talking about it to the wrong person.
     
  27. Steelplaza

    Steelplaza Custom Title

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    I have to disagree, it seems very in line with the League's own vague governance.

    The Team collectively, and Kaldur as their leader invested with authority by the members, have a lot of independence from the League. They certainly have the authority to invite someone to work with them on a temporary basis. OL sold Kaldur on his "try to reform the Nazi" plan and so they're going forward with it.

    If the situation were reversed and someone on the League, say Captain Marvel, wanted to have Overgirl work with the League in an attempt to reform her then it would be appropriate and necessary for Marvel to consult the other League members about what he wanted to do and get their concurrence. But would Captain Marvel be expected to get Kaldur's permission? Of course not.

    So why is it different with the Team? No, let me go ahead and answer that. It's different because the Team is made up of children who are under the authority of adults and need to get adult permission before they try something like this, right? Except the Team doesn't really act like that when it comes to other major decisions and risks.
     
  28. Maxx Crowley

    Maxx Crowley I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    Been said, but yes.

    As someone who has a load of Superman comics, he avoids a lot more attacks then pop culture or the cartoons would suggest to you. Just like Rouge or Wolverine back in the old 90's cartoon. Superman gets hit in the shows more often than anyone because he's the one character who can take all the beating, and the audience wont question it when he gets up unharmed.

    So, I have a, issue where there is a little side story where some teenage punk gets Strength and Durability powers. So of course, he knocks over a bank. Hurts a load of guards and police trying to get out.

    Superman shows up and, after talking him down fails, gets a sucker punch followed by a combination beat down and a car smashed on him.

    But wait? How could Clark NOT dodge that punch as the kid has already been shown to lack speed powers?

    Well, Superman gets up without a scratch, kinda rubbing his jaw. The kid gloats, throws another punch, only for Clark to catch it. A little crackling crunch and Clark says something like "...About a 4." The kid throws another punch that Clark braces for, and almost breaks his other hand. Then Clark levels him.

    Clark literally let him hit him the first time just to see where he fell in the Strength range. Then he knew, and controlled his own strength to overpower, but not just kill, the kid.

    Furthermore, when Superman just stands there and lets someone unload on him, particularly when he was just getting established, he did it to literally say "Look, you can't hurt me. Please just quit now."

    And then for the public that stood there and saw a guy put his hands on his hips while someone unloaded a M-60 into his chest, before walking through a barrage of anti-tank rifle fire. His actions were to say "Look, they can't hurt me. Everything is going to be alright. Have hope, everything be fine."

    Which is why one of his newest expies literally has the catchphrase "I am here." With the understanding being "Everything will be fine."

    He's not an idiot. He's proving a point. Or he is putting himself in between someone squishier.

    I have another book where Clark bobs and weaves under Darkside's punches like Mike Tyson (Look it up) before ripping into his body with perfect hooks, and sending him flying with a (really well drawn) uppercut.



    OL does what OL wants to do. He has since page one.

    For a while, he worked within confines, but lets face it yeah? OL is a rules lawyer. Yes, but no, because this, and then that.

    See all the legal shields he made sure where in place before hitting Nabu.

    OL does what OL wants. One way, or another. Probably has something to do with all that Orange balance, Ophidian's heart soul stuff.

    It is interesting that he'll extend a hand to the Nazi, because she "never had a choice" while Nabu got a mild olive branch and then brain-deaded. I think it's probably safe to say that Nabu did perform more of a net good then Overgirl ever has, but OL had already made up his mind.

    I guess literal goose stepping Nazi is above what he calls a body snatching Lich.

    I suppose it comes down to choice. She was born a Nazi, he chose to become a body wearing Helmut.
     
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  29. Ardy

    Ardy I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    Well that and she's assaulted fewer innocent people than Nabu did in her time on Earth-16. Nabu essentially kidnapped/enslaved Zatanna and Mr. Zatara, Overgirl hasn't hit a single person in anger.
     
  30. Threadmarks: Jungle Gym (part 3)
    Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    17th March
    18:11 GMT -6

    Harleen regards me dispassionately for a moment, then turns back to the barkeep.

    "Next one's a double."

    "So-."

    "Bh!"

    Keeping her attention on the barkeep as he pours her drink, she raises her left hand towards me.

    Alright then.

    I wait patiently as the barkeep finishes pouring and puts the glass down in front of Harleen. She picks it up with her right hand and raises it to her lips. And drinks.

    "Aren't y-?"

    "Bh!"

    And down the whiskey goes. She then puts the glass back down on the bar, but… Her hand hasn't gone down yet. So I keep waiting.

    Harleen closes her eyes, breathes in and then holds it. One, two, three and out slowly.

    Then she lowers her left hand and turns towards me.

    "Okay."

    "Okay."

    "So on Earth 10, the Nahzis rule the woruld."

    "Various far right groups rule the world, with the German National Socialists being paramount amongst them. Directly ruling a world using a relatively small population base is actually quite difficult."

    Not that has stopped all sorts of people from trying. Hah, thought the person from Britain.

    "So everyone's a Nahzi, they're just ain't all Joiman."

    "There's a range of political opinion, but ethnocentrism is a fairly common thread."

    "Okay. Okay. So… Do I need t'go in hidin'?"

    "I.. wouldn't think so?"

    "You do know I'm Jewish, don't yah?"

    I frown. "Should you be drinking on a Friday evening?"

    "Ah, yeyah? Why-?" She shakes her head. "I ain't practisin', but I don' think Nazis care 'bowd that."

    "You know those ridiculously racist Second World War era caricatures of Jews? With the hook nose and-." She nods. "That's what she thinks Jews literally look like. So you wouldn't need to hide even if she wasn't being overseen by a Justice League member or affiliate twenty-four seven."

    "Rilly? Did the Nazis kill awll the smawt people too?"

    "No, but they needed to maintain faith in their ideals, so they didn't ease up on the propaganda after their extermination campaign ended. 'This is what our enemies looked like, accept it, don't question it'. Which is why I came to-."

    "To me, because you think I know how to convince her nat to be a Nahzi."

    "She's not doing badly. Considering. She's managed civil conversations with homosexuals and black people. She's upset but not irrational about the realisation that her mother-figure is probably homosexual as well, and doesn't plan on informing her country's authorities. But she's-."

    "She's makin' exceptions and feelin' weird abowd it, not reassessin' her fundamental worldview."

    I nod.

    "Which is obviously a problem, because she might be able to get away with the-. N-word, she-."

    "Which n-word'?"

    "The.. five letter one?" She nods. "Because she's foreign and it hasn't acquired the derogatory association in some countries that it has in America, but she also calls some people 'sub-human'."

    "Yeyeah."

    "So any advice you've got on how to handle her would be much appreciated."

    "It ain't rilly my field. She ain't crazy. She ain't even a criminal." A tiny frown and a tiny shudder. "She thinks she ain't a criminal. I know you know bowd how maladjusted mosta the people in Belle Reve are."

    "Yes."

    "An' she ain't."

    "I know." I look away for a moment. "'Individuals aren’t naturally paid-up members of the human race, except biologically. They need to be bounced around by the Brownian motion of society, which is a mechanism by which human beings constantly remind one another that they are... Well... Human beings.'"

    "That a quote?"

    "Terry Pratchett. As far as I can tell he was never born here."

    "Clevah." She picks up her glass and taps the edge of the base against the surface of the bar a couple of times. "She's used tah fittin' in with awal the other Nahzis. If she ain't deliberately tryin' to keep to herself, she'll pro'bly come around gradually without rilly meanin' to."

    I nod slowly. "Because she doesn't see herself as part of a criminal minority, so she hasn't developed the psychic defences they need to maintain their egos when they resist the herd."

    "'Herd', huh?"

    "Animals form herds for sound evolutionary reasons. They learn how to behave from all of the other animals around them. I didn't mean it as an insult. And in this case it should be helpful."

    "Unless she internalises bein' an outsidah."

    "So I've got to persuade a group of superheroes to be nice to a self-identifying National Socialist. I mean I… Think they understand what I'm trying to do, but if she acts out in front of a camera it's going to massively undermine Justice League credibility."

    "And you ain't got no one you can share Overgirl-babysittin' duty with."

    "No, Kid Flash has a sort of horrified fascination with her. In the short term… On the practical side, I'm more worried about her acting on differences in rules of engagement. Policing works more or less the same on her Earth, but 'threats to the state' are met by lethal force by default."

    "And if a threat comes from someone she thinks is 'subhuman', she ain't gunna hold back none."

    "Not… Reliably."

    "Okay, well, there's a few things you could do…"
     
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