With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Are you quite done with your attempt to red herring what people are talking about?

Because the rest of us are talking about the very real mitigating circumstances.

It was also a civil suit and not an attempt at a criminal conviction.

Which means the standards were completely different.

 

I couldn't possibly care less. I already know how you behave Vaermina. You, of all people, have no leg to stand upon and chide people.

 

As has been pointed out - there are mitigating circumstances for everything after the possession, though she should still feel guilty about it. She was under the influence and not necessarily thinking straight. At worst, that’s something like a drunk driving / hit and run, where you get put in jail for a few years at most, as opposed to a death penalty. If she’s underage or legally dead, technically having possibly been reborn recently, and in the body of a teenager, the punishment is even less.
And she was ordered to fight OL, where she was just a soldier on the wrong side (that of what turned out to be a traitor, though she had no idea.) She isn’t really guilty of anything there.

 

Awesome. Not what I was talking about at any point, but awesome.

My point was that saying she can't be put on trial, that no jury would convict if she was, and every judge in the country would overturn if convicted solely because "muh christianity" is bullshit.

My original statement also was about Vaermina's general attitude of "everything must conform to what I say. I know all." and what it would if Zoat wrote this falling pidgeon being tried and convicted because...as the author...HE CAN.

Just Following Orders is not a justification or a get out of Crime free card.

 

True, but in this case, her species literally has a hard limit on their ability to question orders/disobey those higher in their nation’s hierarchy hardwired into their psychology as a mitigating factor- or so you could argue in court, at least- the big question needing debate/research would be the extent they’re affected- where they DO have the ability to say no..

.... I think I’m stuck in debate mode. Send help, and caffine
*degenerates into mumbling incoherently about Modrons*

 

Also, they sound like reasonable orders to those who don’t know OL. Fight this one guy who doesn’t respect your religion / country, and if he dies you can still resurrect him if needed. It’s a matter of basing your whole perception of good / wrong off of what your religion/ country tells you to do. Especially since, for all you know, OL did something actually bad against your country. It’s not like she killed innocents while going after OL or anything.

 

Has there ever been a case in history where they literally can't find jurors for the trial, because all of them are already biased? Off the top of my head, the closest the U.S. has ever gotten to that was the O.J. Simpson trial, but they still managed to find people there.

But in this situation, you're basically looking for a group of people who isn't Christian or anything remotely related, isn't any other faith inclined to oppose Christianity, has no strong opinions about Orange 'turned the moon around so people could see the other side, and also made a city-sized cake' Lantern...

And something else... oh, right. They also have to not have heard the giant booming voice condemning Orange Lantern, the giant voice that was audible literally everywhere on the planet.

And once you find this group of blind-deaf agnostic recluses, you also have to hope they respond to the summons.


...Yeah, it might actually be legally impossible to try Noriel.

 

Thats another tricky one to answer-technically her unit/ strike force outright disintegrated an entire building/campus full of innocents in a completely disproportionate use of force,for what was essentially just words, regardless of them “fixing” it afterwards...

 

Your memory serves you somewhat incorrectly. The whole story doesn't get told very often because the initial ruling sounds like such a stick-it-to-the-man David-and-Goliath story. It was still pretty darn frivolous, even if it wasn't COMPLETELY silly.

The victim was burned because she put the cup between her legs and knocked it over when she took off the lid. The burns were only as bad as they were because she was wearing cotton sweatpants that held the liquid against her skin.

The damages were reduced twice by the court, and then the parties settled out of court instead of letting it go to an appeal. The coffee wasn't THAT unusually hot (other companies were found to serve it at comparable or higher temperatures) and the claim that any sort of token warning label on the cup means anything to anyone is absurd. No subsequent case concerning similar scenarios has been ruled in the defendant's favor, and even at the time most judges would have thrown the case out before it ever got in front of a jury. It was a fluke that it went the way it did at all.

 

OK, I really dislike DC's take on the 'monotheist' heaven and hell. The problem is that the "sinners to hell" bit is that it is not accurate, not the writers fault they were given bad information from the more radical elements of Christianity. The Lord's justice is perfect, but if a person lived their whole life morally but did not get baptized (because they lived somewhere no missionary dared to go, Detroit ) should they go to hell? Obvious answer is Obvious, No. I could source verse after verse from 4 different Biblical canons disputing the crazies

There are several different thoughts on how this works, but the Church I belong to believes that on the day of Judgement the Lord Judges all people. The righteous will go to the Celestial Kingdom, the rather good people will inherent the Terrestrial Kingdom, and the OK people will get the Telestrial Kingdom (atheists either go to the Terrestrial or the Telestial, both of which are really nice and both are rewards. Not the best reward, but their choice.) There will be an opportunity for all souls to hear and choose whether or not follow and believe. Only the truly evil go to hell, like Hitler (probably 5% of the population of Earth throughout history).

And don't get me started on the blasted politics of the Evangelical Church and the Holy Roman Catholic. If Father Mathis had gone on TV with OL, it would have damaged OLs credibility further because they think the Pope is a demon at the best of times (Anti-Christ at the worst). Seriously, some crazy people thought Pope John-Paul II was the Anti-Christ because he survived the assassination attempt back in the 1980s. Some even went to President John F. Kennedy's viewing and Funeral because they thought he might rise from the dead and try to take over as the Anti-Christ also, because he was Catholic and they think that the prophecy that Anti-Christ will come from "Rome" means the Catholic Church. They haaaaaate the Catholics and if the DC story was accurate would be accusing them of aiding in the Demonic invasion of Faucett City (I am not joking)

/rant whoo, I do feel better. Keep up the good work, I do enjoy learning more about ancient Greek religion. Every time you post a link, I fall into another rabbit hole of learning.

 

... huh. For some reason I suddenly can’t stop wondering about the potential knock-on effects of the divorce in the Greek pantheon now-we know Eris is interacting with mortals/out and about more then in centuries- one wonders why Zeus has been so.... relatively quiet...

 

I think in some parts of the US it is but I'm not sure.

Couldn't gods/jumped up elementals or their servants claim precedence in the investigation? given the silver city claims jurisdiction over the earth/humanity as the 'one true god' the angel could say the police were 'illegally' interfering with their 'investigation' or more likely them 'carrying out divine judgment' although all that would do is get the GLC involved.

I think they'd do it in spite of evidence to the contrary to spite an unjust God.
If church money can get a good lawyer any such people would be throw out of the jury for bias against the suspect.
(unless that idea is inaccurate my US law isn't that good)
and that's ignoring cultural defences and the 'demonic' mental influence on the angel's mind.
I'm not sure how strong it is in the US but in my country, a man was found innocent of stealing an artefact worth thousands of dollars over cultural defences, in spite of a confession to the theft and evidence to the contrary (the judge used his discretion and dismissed the case).

I'd be down for that.

 

Ok, you really should have not asked this question, because in the time I posted and your response, Zoat responded with this.

Any response I would give would be irrelevant to the events unfolding in the story itself, and rather moot.

That said, that is a rather dick answer to someone asking me to defend/explain a post I made prior. So my rationale for why I think that statement I made was true is spoilered below. Feel free to use it to help decide whether I was informed or not im my opinion, but please let the matter drop either way, because this is edging into rule eight and we are about 2 years and 3 months of this being 20 years ago.

Spoiler: Spoiler

Ok. My rationale was based on what seems to be a prevailing political/ideological stance in America, going back all the way to the Sept 11, 2001 attack on the world trade center buildings and pentagon. They were not given the considerations of a belligerent in a military conflict, even though the titular leader of their organisation was previously hailed as a freedom fighter by the US for fighting against communism in afghanistan. They were not even treated like any other suspected criminal, even though that would have been entirely sufficient to both contain them and successfully prosecute them. Instead, special new laws and and categories were implemented, the term 'illegal combatant' was coined, and things like extraordinary rendition, waterboarding, and gitmo entered the public consciousness.

This is in addition to the US's stance on spies, who are also accorded no special treatment for being in the employ of a foreign government, outside of the possibility of a prisoner exchange. Or how to my knowledge, no survivalist, separatist, or religious group or compound with grievances against the united states has ever been granted POW protections, even if they wore uniforms to distinguish them from civilians, an had a clear command structure they were accountable to.

This is because the US holds itself as under no obligation to extend that treatment to others unless it decided to. Anyone can declare themselves the government/state of X, but the US has obligation to recognise that, and probably won't if they can get away with it, unless there in something in it for them.

The US is rather a bully to others whenever it can be, and does not like granting any legitimacy to those opposing it, at all.

*Raises Hand*
A point of order here.

That doesn't actually count for anything, because the Kingdom of Heaven isn't actually a recognised sovereignty by the US, nor a signatory of any relevant treaty, or even an associate member of the UN. Them declaring their intentions or declaring Paul a criminal doesn't s count for as much as you think.

Imagine as a thought exercise instead of the lighting the skies on fire and the voice of Heaven's Archangel of War echoing through the air, it was all the television sets on Earth suddenly turning to static before the image clears into the face of someone with a face made out of liquid metal. Who says he is Destro, and his liege the illustrious Cobra Commander has declared that Orange Lantern has committed viles crimes against the Cobra, and is under sentence of death. And then fast forward, and Cobra Bio-Cyborg #7284 is on trial for attempted murder. Does it get a pass because Cobra declared their intent first?

 

unless the Vatican counts as an extension of the kingdom of heaven, or something.

 

There are Christians, as mentioned above, that debate that the Catholics are in any way holy. Moreover, Americans are not originally traditionally Catholic, but various forms of Protestant. Catholicism came in a little more recently when America got Spanish and Irish immigrants in the 1800s. To them, the Vatican is at best a place of vast historical importance, created by men. It’s even questionable whether the Vatican considers itself to be an extension of Heaven on Earth. Only 23% of Americans identify as Catholic, vs 75% who identify as Christian according to the first numbers to pop up in Google search.

 

The funny thing about christianity is far too many countries have laws paying lip service to it, and there is a very strong argument that can be made that when the Heavens declared Paul a heretic they would by default be using the powers of the Vatican when it comes to international law. Thus Heaven declaring their intent to punish Paul is far more lawful than you believe... and then Paul went into Hell and aligned himself with the enemies of Heaven...

Again, If the US declared Snowden a traitor and then Snowden decided to go to north Korea, then the US has all the justifications they would need to kill him under international law... and the US is a democracy with proper separations of power, and institutions.

Again, Heaven killing Paul is far more lawful than you think, if Paul had seeked Asylum in the US the legal result would be very different, but since he didn't this is pretty much a slam dunk.

 

Problem is, they tried to kill him before reasoning with him, and before he fled to hell. This is more close to if the US attempted to openly assassinate Snowden in Cuba, with a SWAT team with the FBI label, waving the American Flag, and playing the National anthem, and caused him to flee to North Korea for fear of his life, hoping he would be safe in an enemy country.
Actually, that’s preety believable, considering they did it to Castro.

 

Well the problem here is that in order to bring him to heaven (arrest him) they kinda need to kill him. (or at least that's the easiest way to do it) since waiting until he dies for judgment isn't really an option

 

He was in international waters, Heaven wasn't in violation of any jurisdiction when they attacked his fortress... Maybe Themesira, depending on their laws, but again I wouldn't hold my breath.

Anyways this circlejerk has been for the most part pointless, if Noriel can be separated from Linda then Linda goes to jail and Noriel remains in custody for a few days and its then released later.

Noriel hasn't done anything comparable to what the orange lantern recruit did, nor even comparable to what the Cadmus researchers did, by all in universe metrics she isn't going to jail regardless of how pissed Paul is.

The only way Noriel goes to jail is if she cannot be separated from Linda.

 

Notice how when the battlefield moved to Heaven the Justice League didn't need to die in order to show up to help.
Attempting to preemptively kill him (instead of just opening a portal and physically escorting him there a la Enoch) to get him to Heaven was just bullshit to get him into the lotus eater machine, especially since it still wouldn't have worked without Karrien interfering with the transmigration of OL's soul in a way that apparently violated some pre-existing afterlife agreement going by Hades reaction upon being informed of the events.

 

I thought doctor mist opened a portal there? Why would 'high and mighty heaven' do that for a 'mere mortal' also hence why angels where sent to get him and karrien was hunting him to the ends of the earth to kill him.

Perhaps Karrien (or one of the other angels) had to kill him in order to interfere with his previous agreement?

 

The seas are the jurisdiction of Atlantis, except where otherwise agreed. (Not actually sure of this, but it sounds reasonable, though there are no fines to surface ships, etc... so it might be wrong) Therefore, Heaven violated the jurisdiction of Atlantis, which is recognized by the United States since they now have a trade deal.

 

I have no real stake in the argument going on right now, but "we killed him because we wanted to" when they had other options does not at all make their situation any better.

 

We’re arguing because we like to argue, and it presents an interesting legal dilemma. Surprisingly, no one seems to be in it for religion.

 

No one wants the Religous hate boners to come after them.

I'm not aware enough of the precise nature of earth's connection to heaven in this story to continue this either.

 

Even if you were right and I am 100% sure you aren't (pretty sure only the immediate areas around the city states in the Atlantic ocean are considered territory of Atlantis), its VERY doubtful the FLYING fortress would be part of that arrangement, as that would give Atlantis jurisdiction over planes flying over the Atlantic and that is laughable to say the least.

 

He did, proving that death was unnecessary to get there.

Remember, this argument started with someone saying they were trying to kill him before he even had an opportunity to defend himself.

To which you replied

And were totally and completely wrong. There was absolutely no legitimate need to kill him to bring him in for judgement.

So saying things like

Really isn't helping your case of defending the angels actions at all. Why are cops supposed to arrest those they think committed a crime instead of just shooting them on site? Why do we normally have the trial before the conviction and punishment? Why is life precious? Why is the commandment of that which the angels believe they serve 20:13 THOU SHALT NOT KILL?

 

Atlantis is everywhere that Aquaman controls, so if he controls all beings of the sea, he has colonized all of the sea and has to defend that territory. Possibly including aquariums. Otherwise he would have no jurisdiction or right to stop, for example, poachers. Your point still stands however on not controlling anything above the sea, so you’re probably right there about the Flying Fortress.

 

YJ Aquaman can only control sea mammals.

 

Point still mostly stands - he controls all places with sea mammals, which is most of the sea (except deep underwater).