With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Oh, yea, they also stole his stuff.

They really should have waited on that till he pulled out a weapon. Because now he can argue that he was going to pull out something like a cane to help him walk or maybe a medical artifact since "do you require assistance and a wheelchair" was what OL asked him about when it occurred.

Which basically means a court ordered return of his property.

And just to head something off, he's been sleeping for 40,000 years, which means the legality of those items is grandfather clause protected.

Keep in mind that they only identified themselves as having any legal authority after he waved his hand at them.

Except that loaded gun is identical to a hand wave and you need to be able to prove that it was a gun and not just a hand wave.

It was already established in story that at a low level life energy draining will only make a person a little tired so arguing that it meaningfully damages a persons health is a rather loosing battle.

But even if it did, it would be easy enough to find volunteers who would do so for small amounts of money or even free out of pity.

 

US courts are very permissive when it comes to letting police officers go wherever they want in the pursuit of an ongoing investigation. They also tend to be very skeptical of self defense claims against police officers. This is particularly the case when the suspect is recorded as saying that he intends to kill and eat the officer in question. Moreover, Connecticut law does not permit self defense claims when resisting an unlawful arrest except in cases of excessive force. Where 'excessive force' is defined as being more force than a reasonable police officer, in that situation, would feel is necessary. At the time, all OL had done was stick anti-magic cuffs on Mr. Gotham. That would be very easy to argue as a reasonable level of force against a known magic user.

E: As for taking his things, the part of the Justice League charter authorizing affiliates to confiscate dangerous magical artifacts is apparently very broadly worded. Strega could apply to have them returned at a later date, but that'd be after he's out of prison, assuming he finds a willing life force donor, gets permission to perform the transfer and thereby survives his inevitable term in prison.

 

One of many. I count at least four purported supernatural causes of Gotham's woes in various continuities. Five, if you count the Court of Owls.

Thanks
Luc "Three Would Usually Be Enough" French

 

No, Doctor is a first name. If he was an actual doctor, his title and name would be Doctor Doctor Gotham.

 

You're forgetting something important, they aren't actual police officers.

And they didn't even identify themselves as having any authority to arrest Doctor Gotham until after he waved his hand at them.

Also don't forget that that's not all Orange Lantern did, he smashed open what would legally be considered a magical cryogenic unit, that he could not scan inside, using a deadly weapon.

It would be very easy to argue reckless endangerment there.

 

Er, one of the first things Doctor Mister Gotham said was "Ah. Well, in that case I'm going to have to kill you and use your life force to restore her. Nothing personal, but I've woken up early and I'm rather hungry." (underline for emphasis). I think that is probably sufficient evidence for "attempted murder" in most states.

Thanks
Luc "Subtly Obvious" French

 

And you’re all forgetting that this is DC, where excessive violence against criminals is the norm. That means there are probably specific laws that allow vigilante action under specific circumstances. Real life laws don’t apply. Don’t argue politics.

 

Honestly, I would think that Dr Gotham could overpower a chain that can suppress a lord of order.

The impression I got is that being a lord of order or chaos, when it comes to magic power, is like water out of a hose. It's not that they can use all the power at once, but rather that the power is effectively infinitely renewable.

Dr Gotham, from what I remember, has like tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of magical artifacts in his timelord trenchcoat, which he taps for magic like a magic the gathering player tapping land.

I would therefore while his magic reserve isn't infinitely renewable, I see no reason why he couldn't tap as many of those artifacts as he needs for the task at hand.

In DnD 3x terms, Lords are like warlocks, they can cast their spells 24/7 without their mojo going dry, but I would think that Dr Gotham would be like a psion- His mojo runs out, but he can "go nova" by spending all of his mojo at once.

 

Batman returns and Gotham will be a place full of sunshine and roses with a permanent rainbow glowing over the skyline.

"You're welc..."

"MY CITY!"

 

Yeah, but they had John overpower his trenchcoat with Lord of Order powers separately. He couldn’t use them without time to prepare, or a chance to enter his pocket space (which he did open).

 

Complain about Paul being underpowered for most of the threats he faces.

 

Like mquz said, they caught him in bed so he wasn't wearing his trenchcoat of power.

 

Hehehe. This chapter was just fun.
So this means the positive changes to Gotham will actually stick?
This guy's influence probably explains guys like that rat controlling dude just showing up.

 

OL's a league affiliate, which counts as police for the purposes of investigations and arrests. You only need to identify yourself as a police officer if you're going to use your police authority to do something (like arrest someone), and OL was only asking Gotham for his name prior to being attacked, not arresting him. Legally, cryogenic vaults are an expensive form of coffin and cryogenic patients are legally corpses. The magic sarcophagus is more like this guy's bed, and in the US if the police can absolutely get away with destroying your furniture during a search.

 

That's not how his trenchcoat works.

He opens a portal to go all Gilgamesh, all he has to do to tap his artifacts like lands in MtG is have the trenchcoat.

Then how exactly did he use magic to open his personal portal while having his magic suppressed by magic suppression chains that can suppress a Lord's magic?

 

You know, it's moments like this that remind you of how powerful Paul really is. With all the times he faces enemies that can no sell his abilities it makes it really easy to forget how powerful he actually is.

 

Maybe it suppressed his powers, but the trenchcoat was considered separate, and only required his intent to be used? Then it was suppressed by Fate.

Now that Fate has really been helping OL a lot, I hope he is legit and isn't secretly evil.

 

Wasn't there human trafficking going on in his home, I kinda feel like that's illegal? not to mention the evidence of human sacrifice around him.

 

Well, to be fair, he had just had his home broken into by a glowing orange christmas tree and his glowing yellow ankh of a christmas tree topper, and when he asked about his caregiver, was told she was busy 'trying not to bleed out.' Which sounds like she is the one in danger of dying and the night glo duo were bragging/ taking credit for it. Even the damning quote was about wanting to use their life force to save their victim.

If the ancient sorcerer can find the local equivalent of Wolfram & Hart he really should get off scot free, perhaps even rightly so. Blame nefarious happening in the basement everything on Strygia, he having spend most of the last several millenium trapped and unable to be an active participant in anything bad that happened.

Or New Zealand. The most recent mod to post was from there.

 

Wait a second. What sort of self respecting Brit prefers coffee over tea?

 

... no? his poorly-conceived attempt at parasitic immortality is whats killing him-the implication is that he’ll be dead from age within a decade if he’s prevented from killing someone else to maintain his current state- it isnt OL's fault that the idiot chose a means of life-prolongation that required him to magically kill people to stave death off a few more years at a time >.<
literally all the chains do is make him unable to use his "talents" (originally had "offensively" here, removed it after discussion)- that argument would not stand up in court, as you are LITERALLY saying "stopping this man from murdering people and eating their souls to stay alive is morally wrong!"

.....maybe you should just be patient and wait for the next time he does something genuinely morally-dubious like the the psychological torture+genocide combo he used to exterminate the citidelians? >.<

 

Superman comics have a similar problem. Always so powerful that the encounter is trival or made powerless.

 

It’s been somewhat hinted at that he’s the version of John from the live action series. Definitely in appearance, and he might be considered the most orderly non-evil version.

 

Interesting resolution to this episode...

And is Vaermina using RL to debate things that have been fleshed out in the fic?

In this universe, vigilantes and people that preform civilian arrest have a lot more leway than the real world equivalent, unless wanton violence is used or several laws are broken, vigilante arrest are taken in good faith by the police so long the vigilante in question cooperates with the authorities when they show up (in short depends entirely on the results).

Hostile magic users are now under the purview of laws that were enacted in response to the Roanoke global incident, the degree of harshness changes on a country to country basis (and paragon and renegade have different levels of laws at least in the US), but he is unlikely to be treated as an "old man with a gun", he is a ppwerful malefic arum and he and his minions are unlikely to get much clemency once the extent of their crimes are known.

Finally OL has remarked that the Justice League and their affiliates are granted full authority to confiscate dangerous technologies AND magical artifacts on pretty much all UN signatory countries, the governments of these countries can demand or keep the artifacts confiscated, but only if they have the facilities to secure them.


So as far as the IN universe laws go there are NO problems with the arrest of Mister Gotham and his minions, real life US law is mostly irrelevant as we have already been told most of the mechanics in place that make the entire operation lawful and the violence against these magic users and their collaborators justified.

 

No idea. I think that you can assume that the SI making ferret poo coffee as a joke probably doesn't indicate a preference.

 

del

 

I think he means strict as in "Arkham is not a nice place"

 

All I could think of was this moment (spoilered for length):

Spoiler: Batman orders coffee

That said, the violent response/defense defense (heh) would only work for a mostly-instinctive/act of passion response that comes in the heat of the moment, before ascertaining that the person doing it indeed had the authority to do so. Doc Goth's rather clear and lucid statement of intent beforehand indicated that he not only was fully conscious (and thus not operating on instinct), but also aware of the situation and had full control over his actions, so it wasn't an act of uncontrollable passion.

Basically, it might not hold up in court as attempted murder, but it'd sure as hell qualify as sufficient for an initial arrest, even if he ends up not being arraigned on that particular charge.

Again, it might not hold up enough for an attempted murder charge... but that statement of intent would legally constitute assault in any US state. (Short version: Assault is doing something that makes them think you're going to try to hurt them; battery is actually attempting to hurt them physically.)

Better would be to say "while subduing you if you resist arrest." For them to get away with destroying your furniture during a search, they need a search warrant (or exigent circumstances such as reasonable cause to believe that a kidnap victim is trapped inside your mattress); otherwise, they're legally on the hook for any damage they cause (not to mention having any evidence they find that wasn't in plain view thrown out as an illegal search). Even with a warrant, they have to be able to demonstrate that it was strictly necessary to the search and seizure of evidence. For example, a search warrant would allow the police to cut a bloodstained portion out of your mattress to seize as evidence; a search warrant for evidence of drug smuggling would allow them to cut open your mattress to search inside it for a hidden stash, but a search warrant for evidence of auto theft wouldn't, as there's no real reasonable way that one could hide a stolen car inside a mattress, and thus cutting the mattress open would be seen as purely vengeful vandalism.

Trivia note: in most jurisdictions, police departments are legally required to financially compensate property owners for any and all damage done during the execution of a warrant or an arrest. So every time a SWAT team breaks down a door and throws tear gas grenades into the room before entering on a high-risk warrant service, the cops will have to reimburse the homeowner for replacement of the door, lock, and frame, and for decontaminating/extracting tear gas residue from everything inside the room. (This is one of many reasons that SWAT teams only make entry as a last resort, preferring to have a hostage negotiator "bore them to death" over the phone so that the suspect comes out voluntarily and peacefully.)

Jet lag is a right bitch. Probably even more so when you're teleporting instantly from one side of the world to another instead of having to actually physically move from one place to another...

 

The prophecies that we've seen from Apollo in-story have been about present circumstances, which is certainly a meaningful sort of divination, but it's not future sight. And even if his oracles can predict the future, the question I asked is if they can do it reliably and intentionally. Catching glimpses of destiny when events align just right isn't reliable (you can't count on events always aligning) or intentional (you didn't ask a question, you responded to information given to you unbidden).

Keep in mind that Gotham City is in Connecticut. The crime there isn't called "criminal menacing" (that's actually only on the books in a small number of places), it would be called brandishing a weapon. Which in and of itself is only a misdemeanor, but as a finding of fact such a crime can be used as an evidentiary or aggravating factor in the evaluation of another crime. The most obvious higher crime that comes with brandishing a weapon is assault with a deadly weapon -- and an assault charge (at least in Connecticut) doesn't require actual harm, only intent to commit harm. And if baleful magic isn't legally construed as a deadly weapon, Connecticut also recognizes "dangerous instruments" which can be anything capable of inflicting deadly injury even if it's not designed for it. (The classic example is trying to run someone over with your car -- the car is a dangerous instrument here.)

Connecticut also recognizes an aggravating factor for assault: if you know someone is a witness to a crime, and you assault them, then the minimum penalty is ten years.

The self-defense claim is invalidated by the circumstances of the event. Mister Gotham here was not in immediate mortal fear for his life or safety. The situation was under control. He might have been able to mount a legal defense based on an invasion of his home, but he screwed that up with his statement of intent -- he wasn't trying to stop a crime; he explicitly stated that he was intending to profit from the killing.

To be fair, it would be an interesting legal case. It's not obviously cut-and-dried and there are a number of ways a defense lawyer could approach this. It might even be possible to establish a reasonable doubt about some of the charges, such as the attempted murder charge. (Even if found not guilty, though, the threat of lethal force DOES give OL standing to use force to subdue him.) I don't see a good way of getting around the conspiracy charges, though.

Now this, on the other hand, is actually a solid argument. It doesn't give him grounds to demand that the chains be immediately removed, but it does weigh into the required accommodations of his incarceration. Prisoners are required to be given reasonable health care. The prison would be obligated to find a reasonable means to protect him and his health. Of course, the prison is also obligated to keep him incarcerated, so it would probably involve removing the magic suppression while keeping him otherwise secured (perhaps by armed guards) for just long enough for him to draw some life force from livestock or something.

 

Oof, this was a brutal curbstomp.

Having said that, I do hope OL doesnt get too cocky living in Gotham for so long. All he has to do is blink, and the enemies are falling apart.