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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Discussion in 'Creative Writing' started by Mr Zoat, Jan 27, 2019.

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  1. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    Seeing as how things are going maybe she won't becomes a better person. This episode could be just her getting her world view destroyed without becoming a better person.
    Though maybe if she shows up in the future something good could be done with her.
     
  2. jasonh23761

    jasonh23761 Not too sore, are you?

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    Welp, whichever way this goes, I'm really glad we're all on QQ and not still on SV. Otherwise there would be just a constant fire. Great chapter though.
     
  3. Ct613hulu

    Ct613hulu Experienced.

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    So another chapter in which one character supports Nazi ideology while the protagonist flails around and can't manage to muster a serious opposition.

    Why isn't OL bringing up how the standards that the Nazi regime is using to determine genetic fitness are hopelessly biased and that the Nazi system of eugenics is not in any way representative of real genetic science. It should be trivial for him to prove that Jews and other people deemed genetically unfit by Nazi Ideology do not possess genetic characters that make them inferior or dangerous.

    You can say what you want about it making sense for OL to behave like this from an IC perspective, but you are the one setting up the conditions that lead to this situation where the arguments supporting a horrific ideology are presented in a strong manner while the arguments against it are delivered in a lackluster manner. Why have you led the story in this direction? Are you trying to prove some philosophical or political point here?
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2020
  4. FreeGod

    FreeGod If you see a God on the road fuck it!

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    No way. Earth already has far more than it's far share of lanterns.
     
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  5. Slayer Anderson

    Slayer Anderson Orthodox Heretic

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    Yeah, this is one of those rare occasions I'd endorse planet-wide (or at least continent-wide) mind control.

    Paul fusing with the Ophidian again should be able to pull it off.
     
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  6. Chojin Patriarch

    Chojin Patriarch Veteran Lurker

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    Oh, she is not a happy camper. Looks like she's gone from 'Screaming Internally' to 'Screaming Externally'

    You assume they want children? Not everyone is interested in making babies for the State...

    ...Like talking to a brick wall. She is not coming around anytime soon...

    Old-fashioned attitudes... That belong in the past they came from...

    ...Ew. He's basically your father, lady. Even if not biological, just... Ew.

    Phrasing, OL, phrasing. You'd think he'd learn to consider it in situations like this...

    Huh. I didn't know he'd even taken Jade to visit Themyscira.

    Does she not even understand basic physiology? Or is this a 'lost in translation' thing?

    <Sigh> Yeah, OL, this is not working. She's just not interested in dropping the National Socialist thing.

    Oh, that's gonna start some arguments...

    Yeah, Earth 16 don't swing that way. That would raise so many red flags... Gee, I wonder why?:V

    Well, that's that, OL. Time to turn up the 'polite host' stance, wait for Overman to turn up and send her home.

    Because of course there's no homosexual marriage in her world. Something that doesn't exist doesn't need to marry...:mad:

    And cue the offended face...

    ...Or the 'Do Not Want' face. good enough. Which is similar to a 'What is that horrible smell?' face, I bet.

    Winners write history books. They can also delete people from them...

    Guess what, honey... No implying needed!

    How... Impure of you, Angelika...

    In other words, your world's narrative demands bad guys, so you can't have anything that disagrees with that.

    Ah, Hypocrisy incoming. She is human after all.

    Fine. Just try to keep your opinions on the matter to yourself, please.

    Well, there's the explosion we were all waiting for. Thankfully it wasn't nuclear. The sooner she's headed home the better, I think, if only to settle the tempers of all involved...

    Corrections:
    "Come on, I know kryptonians had exo-wombs.
    ...amongst an isolated population...
    ...and a woman or two of either is only significant if they...
    People who would mourn their loss...
     
  7. Ganurath

    Ganurath Apologizes For Nothing

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    Needs more threadmark.
     
  8. Handlewithcare

    Handlewithcare Versed in the lewd.

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    I...don't see any arguments for Nazi ideology? She is merely saying what they did, not why it was justified. Like...she isn't even seeing the human cost.

    She isn't even defending anything, for her it's self evident.

    It's a fairly realistic portrayel of someone raised in a totalitarian belief system, I think.
     
  9. Lothlo

    Lothlo Not too sore, are you?

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    Wait, didn't Paul have a mission where he interacted with a clone of Hitler who was married to a black woman?? He could take Overgirl to meet him just to mess with her on the topic of nature vs nurture
     
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  10. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    In fairness to Angelika i can see why she would like to consider criminals as just criminals, instead of ordinary people. They commited crimes and if she let them go they would commit more crimes.
    One guys monsters is anothers hero.
    It is still a shitty argument coming from the mouth of a nazi, but i am pretty sure that most ordinary people and police officers, that being those who aren't nazis, have a similar mindset when it comes to criminals.
     
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  11. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    Thank you, corrected.
     
  12. Ct613hulu

    Ct613hulu Experienced.

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    That seems more like a criticism of the ordinary people and police officers with that mindset than any kind of defense of Overgirl or other enforcers of Nazi ideology. The fact that dehumanizing enemies can be a psychologically tempting and useful means of behavior doesn't mean that it should be considered to be morally acceptable or any less dangerous.

    We should keep in mind that some of the "crimes" deemed worthy of death by Overgirl's would be things like being slavic, supporting servile insurrection, sabotaging concentration camps, and spreading "propaganda'" on the misdeeds of the Nazi Party. Her argument in defense of her lack of sympathy for "criminals" only makes sense if you consider these behaviors to be crimes worthy of death. It actually seems to serve as a good example of why dehumanizing people is an incredibly dangerous type of behavior that can lead otherwise moral individuals to commit horrific actions.
     
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  13. rkyeun

    rkyeun Cabbitus Maximus

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    Ah-hahaha-no.
    Googolplexian is 10googolplex. And even that is peanuts.

    Graham's Number.
    To get to Graham's Number, we first have to explain uparrow notation.

    You know that doing addition multiple times is multiplication.
    3+3+3 = 3×3 = 9
    That's one part of a pattern.

    You know that doing multiplication multiple times is exponentiation. You multiply it by the previous, 9.
    3×3×3 = 33 = 27
    That's the next part of the pattern. It's also where uparrow notation starts. Because this pattern continues, and we need ways to talk about it.
    3↑3 = 3×3×3 = 33 = 27

    If you make a tower of exponents, you've got what's called tetration. You raise it to the power of the previous, 27.
    Tetration is the next step beyond exponents, in the same direction as from addition to multiplication, or multiplication to exponents.
    333 = 327 = 3↑↑3 = 3↑3↑3 = 7625597484987
    You may notice that this number is... significantly larger than the previous steps. This is a trend that not only continues, but gets worse faster in a way you can't comprehend.

    A googolplexian is less than 3↑↑6

    The next step is pentation. You make a stack of power towers as tall as the previous. Which is... 7625597484987
    3↑↑↑3 = 3↑↑3↑↑3 = 3↑↑7625597484987 = a stack of threes 33333... which is 7625597484987 threes tall = Fuck you.
    But we're only getting started. Now that you know what uparrow notation is, we can start talking about Graham's Number.

    So let's start at a relatively small number to give a sense of scale. Let the number g1 mean:
    3↑↑↑↑3
    which is a tower of 3s as high as the "fuck you" answer I noped out on.

    The number g2 would then be:
    3↑↑↑...↑↑↑3
    where the number of ARROWS between those threes is the answer to the tower of 3s as high as the "fuck you" answer.

    The number g3 has THAT MANY arrows between the threes.

    Graham's Number is g64

    There was some question about coloring lines, where they figured out that the answer was somewhere between this bullshit number... ...and 6.
    "Clearly, there is some room here for improvement," states Graham about his solution.

    The number TREE(3) which makes Graham's Number look like it isn't even trying, will not be covered here.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2020
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  14. Massgamer

    Massgamer Not too sore, are you?

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    So basically she refuses to acknowledge anything that counteracts her worldview, she doesn't care for truth only for principles she was brought up in. She would rather bury her head in sand and ignore that is there rather than confront it and idea that what her society says is wrong.

    Sadly that is a very common attitude among people, if if doesn't conform to your personal world view your either ignore it or violently remove it.
     
  15. Queshire

    Queshire Not too sore, are you?

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    I mean, to be fair the chance of converting her was always low, and simply not having nazi!Supergirl wind up in some collateral damage causing super brawl is probably a win.
     
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  16. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    NSDAP isn't quite stupid enough to waste the time of one of their power powerful superheroes on things like that. They also don't really have concentration camps any longer due to a lack of need.
    OFF TOPIC
     
  17. w34v3r

    w34v3r Versed in the lewd.

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    Yeah, corpses are amazingly low maintenance.
     
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  18. Grimnar

    Grimnar Versed in the lewd.

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    You know, it's just occured to me how much of a fucking dick OL is being.

    She gets thrown through into an alternate universe, wakes up, and her keeper is just rushing her about trying to convert her.

    Dude, chill. Get her somewhere to sit down, eat a kabab and throw on the TV or something. She hasn't had a moments peace since she woke up.
     
  19. Cuchulin

    Cuchulin Versed in the lewd.

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    More like TRYING to refuse to acknowledge anything that contradicts her world view, i'd say Paragon and this Earth are getting through to her at least a little or she would not be so agitated or so loudly trying bury her head in the sand.

    She is Nazi and so is in part bringing it on her self. OL is mostly just politely and truthfully answering her questions.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2020
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  20. Ganurath

    Ganurath Apologizes For Nothing

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    Hope of flipping Overgirl isn't lost, we just need to find someone who can act with empathy better than Paul. Yes, I know about his enlightenment vision, but that doesn't make him better at acting with empathy. Increased stimuli just increases the amount of social information he misses, or the number of social opportunities he misses due to time spent processing information. Just because Paul couldn't swing her literally less than an hour after waking her up doesn't mean that someone can't make meaningful progress.
     
  21. w34v3r

    w34v3r Versed in the lewd.

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    Does empathy work on people whose whole schtick is denying empathy to other people?
     
  22. rkyeun

    rkyeun Cabbitus Maximus

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    Sorry. I went back and hid it behind a spoiler so it wouldn't take up room.
     
  23. Ct613hulu

    Ct613hulu Experienced.

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    Again with the defense of a Nazi regime and the enforcer of that regime. I can understand moral ambiguity and the idea that exploring the humanity of people immersed in a monstrous system can be the seed of an interesting story, but this is really going to far. Does your world-building really need to have an explanation for why all the people mercilessly killed by a enforcer of a Nazi regime were all "evil" and deserving of death?

    Why do you keep on seizing on reasons to explain why a victorious Nazi Regime and an enforcer of that Regime are not really that bad? It seems like you are trying to depict the Nazi World as a place that is not substantially different from the real world in terms of standards of morality and behavior for the government. The problem is that even a basic understanding of the goals of the Nazi Party and the type of world envisioned in Nazi ideology should indicate that this is complete nonsense.

    A "Nazi World" is not going to be anything less than a total hellhole for the vast majority of humanity who do not fit into the artificial standards of "purity" defined by Nazi Ideology. The massive scale of their ongoing suffering is should be a major feature in any description of a "Nazi World" and the fact that this is totally missing is something I find extremely disturbing.

    PS: I think that I am getting a overly bothered by this, so I will make this my last post on the subject.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2020
  24. Ngamer11

    Ngamer11 Experienced.

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    The comment from Paul about church made me realize that all the Nazis are probably "good Christians". However, what they believe is right isn't necessarily what the Silver City thinks is right. This means they might be worshipping a religion that'll send them to Hell when they die. How would Overgirl react to that? Especially since Hitler is there as well? That'll at least make her realize her world is seriously messed up.
     
  25. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    The religion thing could be an angle to work with, but even if she figures it out she may decide to switch to one that allows those type of things. Zoat said that what could get a christian a ticket to hell could get a pat on the back from Odin. If the government on her world found out about it i am pretty sure that most would switch faiths from the Silver City to something else.
    Even she may decide to switch, depending on how strong her faith in christianity is.
    And while they may condemn people who commited those crimes they may allow average civilians that did not take any part in the genocides, whose only crime is believing a shit philosophy but otherwise being decent people that meet the angels criteria for admittance in heaven.
     
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  26. RichardWhereat

    RichardWhereat Aia airëa Fëanáro.

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    Shit, it's like he's trying to show a Nazi's point of view, from a Nazi. Since that's what she is. Zoat isn't the one with the beliefs, it's Overgirl, who is a Nazi, from a Nazi run world.

    How did you think the conversation would go? Instant conversion with no pushback from the person indoctrinated into those beliefs?
     
  27. Sceptic

    Sceptic Critical Irrationalist

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    "Hi, I'm a nazi and I believe all sorts of terrible things. The nazi utopia I come from is a hellhole for everyone else."
    "Hello, didn't you know that nazis are bad and wrong, and that terrible things and hellholes aren't nice?"
    "Oh, I never realised. I guess I'll have to just immediately change my entire worldview."
     
  28. Vlad

    Vlad I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    You can not convince a person by brownbeating them over the head with FACTs.

    I challenge you to do so to any dedicated religious person in a few days and see their response.
     
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  29. Maxx Crowley

    Maxx Crowley I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    And yet so remarkably common.

    Pretty much every teen boy who has ever approached his crush and gotten his face smashed for his trouble gets to hear it. Nah bro, couldn't just let you down easy, because you were just so damn gay that I had to punch you in the face as hard, and as many times as I could before someone (hopefully) stopped me.

    I know right? Just letting this nazi filth live as long as he has. Hopefully it's to allow the Jewish and Romani singers time to get set up so that they can serenade to her as the green K gas does its job for maximum joyus effect.

    Ah yes, an entire chapter almost scientifically designed to piss me the fuck off.
     
  30. Ganurath

    Ganurath Apologizes For Nothing

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    "Even when we hunger for the destruction of our foes we must always strive for their conversion. A living ally is of infinitely greater worth than a dead opponent."
    -General Cirin,
    Crimson Dark

    Also, there's the whole "murder is illegal" thing to consider, as well.
     
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