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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Discussion in 'Creative Writing' started by Mr Zoat, Jan 27, 2019.

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  1. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    If you mean animated television series then Justice League Unlimited, though if you mean a movie animation then it could be several.
    Still it could include Raul.
     
  2. WereDragon

    WereDragon Bookwyrm

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    A marvellous chapter.

    If you feel sufficiently levelled then it isn’t worthy of being a boss.

    Interestingly this is less “I’m not who I say I am” and more “I am not nearly as in-control as I like to pretend.”
    Wonder when he last thought of the Ciaphas Cain books.

    Not unexpected. Think Gravyen did a better job than Starlight Glimmer at bringing this issue to light.

    Bah, narrative causality cares not for corny-ness. It cares only for the story and for the theme.

    He has some serious body-image issues if he genuinely thinks that.
     
  3. Idkusername

    Idkusername Versed in the lewd.

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    Thing is, you’re the first person on the Internet I’ve heard use it in that context. Everyone else, well, most everyone else uses it in the context of the Dresden files. Or so I assumed, without further clarification.

    Also, since the whole Grayven shebang started, people were talking about Jim Butcher’s cash cow, not Tod Howard’s, so it’s an entirely reasonable mistake.

    I haven’t read through the whole thread (obviously), but I think you might be the first person here to reference Elder Scrolls in this context.

    P.S. Do I sound like an ass at times? I’m afraid my humour doesn’t always carry over well to text.
     
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  4. Coda

    Coda Versed in the lewd.

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    I'm pretty sure Grayven knew it would work from the beginning but he didn't (and really, still doesn't) have a good way to pursue that idea. Just because he knows the Life Entity is on Earth doesn't really give him a way to forge a White Ring; he'd still need to build up the emotional compatibility with all of the other concepts and figure out how to merge them, and doing that with a fragment of Anti-Life polluting his soul might not be possible. At the very least, there's a real risk that it would have broken containment before he could pull it off. Grayven was wise to look for alternatives.

    I think that may have been an invalid assumption -- the two ideas are close enough together that it's hard to tell the difference outside of the specific points of deviation.

    Not any more than anyone else.
     
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  5. Siskulous

    Siskulous Know what you're doing yet?

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    Completely unrelated, but does anyone else think of this instead of a comic book character whenever Steppenwulf is mentioned?

    *coughfaqcough*

    Be fair. It's not a common thing, but this is very far from the first time Grayven's experienced serious character development. He is capable of learning from his mistakes. Sometimes. Ok, rarely, but still, it happens.

    Eh, Pinkie Pie evens it out. I've not seen a LOT of MLP - mostly I've just been in the room not really paying attention while my kids watch it - but Pinkie Pie seems to me to be able to tap into the Toon Force. That's some serious power, enough to rival Darkseid all on its own. Provided it's funny.

    That's not at all what happened. Fatherbox made a soul for him by copying Graven's soul, which makes him quite a lot like Graven. That's a far different process than pretending to be a god so hard that you actually replace said god.

    The concept people are referring to is mantling from The Elder Scrolls. I've no idea where Zoat got the idea that it was from Dresden Files, given that those mantles bear absolutely no resemblence to anything in this story.
     
  6. rdfox

    rdfox Know what you're doing yet?

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    No. It's not just you. Though for me, it alternates with this...
     
  7. Handlewithcare

    Handlewithcare Versed in the lewd.

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    Re: Mant(e)ling

    Look people. You will just have to accept our headcanon of a fanfic of a fictional multiverse, okay?
     
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  8. PDV

    PDV Revelation That Uncertainty Is Itself An Answer

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    It's been mentioned multiple times just within this thread.
     
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  9. iamnuff

    iamnuff Connoisseur.

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    Like I repeated multiple times. Renegade started picking up memories frm a childhood he never had. Possibly inheriting traits from the person he was pretending to be, and stole the powerset/godly domain of the person he was pretending to be.

    That's not just copying someone. There's bleedover from the real Grayven into him.
    Which is a core part of the mantle-gaining process.

    I mean, this is atleast partially wrong, because I'm talking about the mantles from The Dresden Files, because that's a settling that uses the phrase 'Mantle' to describe a fae or divine role.

    I have no idea what elder-scrolls stuff you're talking about.
     
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  10. Siskulous

    Siskulous Know what you're doing yet?

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    In Dresden Files "Mantle" is a noun refering to a metaphysical thing you wear (or, more accurately, is usually forced onto you, usually following the death of the previous person to wear it) that gives you a role and the powers to go with it and exerts some influence on your moods and whatnot, but the person wearing the mantle is still themselves. The Winter Lady may be constantly horny now (and possibly being driven slowly insane by her inability to do anything about it), but she is the same person she was before. The Winter Knight may be more prone to anger, but he's not a fundamentally different person than he was before. And, most notably, nowhere in any of the books is it used as a verb.

    In Elder Scrolls "mantling" is a verb. Vastly oversimplified, a mortal pretends to be a god so hard that the universe actually turns them into that god and replaces the original with them. There are two really good examples in the lore, but one in particular gives us a very good example of how not-the-same-person someone who has accomplished this feat becomes. The Hero of Kvatch - the main character from Oblivion - mantles Sheogorath in one of the Oblivion DLCs and then shows up in Skyrim so we get a good before-and-after image of them. Now while being a main character means that the before could have been just about anything, in the process of mantling Sheogorath he has completely become Sheogorath, the Daedric Prince of madness, and there is very little left of whoever he was before. While the comparison is not quite perfect, this much more closely resembles what has happened to Grayven.
     
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  11. LostPath

    LostPath Getting out there.

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    I feel like Pony Metron should come and observe all of this weirdness.
     
  12. DrThoth

    DrThoth I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    I believe there is a storyline where Wonder Woman becomes a War god, she can spiritually/psychically commune with every soldier and stuff (which reminds me that I'm looking forward to seeing Ares appear in the story; I don't think this'll happen but Renegade is already Conquest, so him assembling a team of deities resembling the Four Horsemen could be fun, if New 52 stuff hasn't tainted that idea for Zoat).

    I'm less familiar with Marvel stuff, in terms of actual comicbook source material and not adaptations. The closest referent I have is some of the divine metaphysics in Thor: Ragnarok, though sadly that movie was, in my opinion, basically undone by everything that happens in subsequent Avengers films.
     
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  13. Idkusername

    Idkusername Versed in the lewd.

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    Might well be true, except I was using that as an explanation for my assumption and not anecdotal evidence of who referred to what. I made it clear I hadn’t read the whole of the thread and my knowledge could very well be incomplete.
     
  14. Coda

    Coda Versed in the lewd.

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    If you handwave away the concrete details of the mechanism by which it happened, the overall process matches pretty darn well.
     
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  15. Valint

    Valint I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    Wasn't there a theory at one point that Paul might actually be the real Grayven?

    The idea being that original Grayven from the YJ universe either (a) was doing the xianxia thing where they live a lifetime as an ordinary human as a way of gaining another perspective on life and strengthening their particular philosophical path, and did too good of a job sealing away his original memories, or (b) something happened in the Bleed that caused him to think he was just an ordinary human, but all of the SI's memories were just fictions created by his fractured mind trying to put itself back together and make sense of what he had learned in the Bleed.
     
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  16. Huttj509

    Huttj509 Getting sticky.

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    The problem with terminology from other fiction sources is that it carries with it a lot of implications about what's going on, and what will be the result, that are not relevant to the story at hand.

    Renegade's soul was "patched (in the software sense)" by Father Box with parts of Grayven's soul. This has had, and will have ramifications. Those ramifications may have similarities, or be completely different from what a similar process would do in the Elder Scrolls.

    Thus, using a term from TES without comparative context, when the same term is used in other popular media to mean different things and not used by the author of this Fic to provide a baseline point of reference, is at best ambiguous, and potentially misleading, causing people to draw incorrect conclusions about how things are expected to work in this Fic.
     
  17. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    No it wasn't. It was built in the likeness of Grayven's soul. Grayven still has all his own soul. Grayven didn't even know that the Renegade existed until the last Citadelians informed him.
     
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  18. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    If some Citadelians escaped the renegades genocide on their race then did some Citadelians also escape on the paragon side and join Grayven, aside from those Citadelians the paragon "recruited" for Amalac, after shooting 800 of them and leaving, like what, eleven?
    Does paragon Grayven know about Paul?
     
  19. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    ...

    I think that sentence needs a little work.

    The Renegade thinks he got all of the Citadelians. There weren't all that many of them and this Corps and the Imperials were looking pretty darn hard.
    Yes.
     
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  20. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    Are Paul and paragon Grayven going to meet anytime in your story?

    What happened to Savitar when Kid Flash went on that mission?

    Did they recover that speedster woman that was kidnapped?
    I only remember reading that Wally talked her down from giving her powers to those cultists.
     
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  21. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    Yes.
    He wasn't there, and was occupied.
    Yes.
     
  22. Sceptic

    Sceptic Critical Irrationalist

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    Wait, so... hypothetically speaking, if I just beat a guy to death with a piece of fireplace, you're saying I haven't just trivially stolen his identity‽

    Anyone got any advice for hypothetical body disposal?
     
  23. Mquz

    Mquz Versed in the lewd.

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    It’s mentioned almost every time mantling is in this thread. The elder scrolls version is borrowed from Dresden files to explain how the PC can be the Nerevarine, and several other similar “reincarnations” in the lore.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
  24. TheMidnightRook

    TheMidnightRook Well worn.

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    Except that that would require actually getting his hands on one. I'm not an expert on the various Lantern Corps, but I don't think white power rings even existed until Brightest Day, which is still some time in the future.

    IIRC, it was explained in a prior Renegade segment that Darkseid split the domain of war between his sons. Orion got the Glory of War, Grayven got Conquest, Kalibak got... something, I forget what it was.
     
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  25. Ideomancer

    Ideomancer Getting out there.

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    The Brutality of War, I believe. Kalibak embodies pretty much everything about warfare that gives people PTSD.
     
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  26. Mquz

    Mquz Versed in the lewd.

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    Cats?
     
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  27. DrThoth

    DrThoth I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    I believe it was called the Horror of War (in Renegade's first onscreen interactions with the Amazons), but the meaning is pretty much what you said.

    Renegade has explicitly referred to his plans, or at least the beginning of plans, for white light manipulation; it came up in his internal narration in one of Ghi'ata's first appearances as a reason for involving himself with her (moreso than just obligation to Aga'po would entail). He has Red (Inspector Talbot), Orange (his original ring and his Corps), Yellow (Sinestro-ring) and is on roughly good terms with some Green Lanterns, and now Ghi'ata. The Indigo Corps should be out there in his timeline, staying under the radar, so while it probably won't be easy, it's still a possibility to get an ally from them. All that leaves is Blue.

    I don't remember if it came up again, but @MrZoat what did Diana/the League end up doing with the power battery lantern that Renegade recovered from Apokalips? (I may have asked this already, so I apologize if so- I'm assuming they just returned it to the Guardians but that might be me remembering your answer).
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
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  28. dogbertcarroll

    dogbertcarroll Random lurker

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    If the two gods of Conquest go to war, Darkseid will be proud of whichever son wins.
     
  29. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    It's serving as the Watchtower's primary power source.
     
  30. LazySloth13

    LazySloth13 Versed in the lewd.

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    I can't wait for Paragon Paul to return, not that Grayven's pony adventure isn't entertaining, I just find the discussions about 'Mantling' repetitive and Paul's productive insanity messing with the Status Quo so much other people want him to stop or slow down.

    Hell I'd go for more awkward moments/interaction between Overgirl and Canis with the rest of the Team, probably not with Rocket unless it's funny, and more buddy cop antics with Guy.
     
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