With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Only if I care enough to do it and this isn't a VS debate. If I didn't take the time to help with the wiki, I certainly wouldn't take the time to hunt for quotes. I am citing what I remember was said and gave time stands/episodes/conversations were it was said, if you can find them and demonstrate I am remembering wrong (it can happen, sometimes) then I will concede and revise my argument. If no one does then I see no issue with being wrong on the internet.

Having more or less empathy has no measurable impact on people being capable of doing a job, it does impact their effectiveness and how they will feel before/during/after, but capabilities are limited by knowledge, skills, training, etc, not personally types.

 

I'm confused, are you disagreeing with me or trying to give a possible reason why it could be?

If Karmang was a burner he could have become a red or a white. One in my head basically has an immunity to the guardian programing (reds) and one has evolved beyond the conditionining.(whites). I basically see reds and whites as the most similar through what amounts to convergent evolution.

Karmang's memories showed him as white yes, but i don't see how this disproves my headcannon? I know my theory doesn't have very much, if any support. But so far i havent seen anything that explicitely disprove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. and thats all i need.

See working on the wiki is easily confirmed. so your interpretation does infact carry a little more weight. and like you said, you are sharing some relevent info in support of your topic.

I'm more talking about the back and forth of "I'm right" "no i"m right". If if devolves to that, prove your facts(i mean the royal you here not you specifically).

We can all discuss our ideas and interpretations of the events. but if 99%(since we have no proof of who we are) of us say its a fact and demand eveyone listen, we have to prove it.

 

I'm trying to say that we technically do have some evidence as to why the various colorations of Martian all came to exist when the Guardians were finished with the Burners, instead of them being born after several years, as you implied when you said that the White Martians were born after that.

Though given that Karmang is kinda insane he may have been lying about some of those things, but I doubt it to be honest.

 

I disagree with some of that, and also think that’s a bit simplified/simplifying a way of looking at those things and what personal ability and aptitude can entail, but, considering that those things are rather more about personal conviction and opinion, I don’t think we can really have a productive discussion about this. So I’m not going to pursue this further.

The rest of my argument, however, that, in this story, having actual personality differences based on what is essentially race could (and, at least in my case, does) make one uncomfortable and feels especially weird considering the so-far pro-integration/equality message in this arc. Which is the main reason why I’m sceptic.

 

Ah okay, thanks for clarifying. Well this nearlly extinguishes my headcannon then. I still think Reds and whites are accidents. Reds resisted the changes made. Whites evolved past them by embarcing all emotions equally. (since white light is all the lantern colors). but this is my headcannon and i'm not trying to convince anyone since i have no proof. I just believe red/white are mistakes.

 

You may be right that the three divisions were accidents, since they do seem weird.

Though I doubt the White Martians have a connection to the White Light anymore than other species do, or that they embraced all emotions.

 

Grandfathered from DC Canon... The different colors do have different dominant personality types in some DC Canon even if the details are clearly very different in this fic, DC Canon isn't the be all end all of this fic (that is Zoat) but we need to remember he isn't creating everything from zero, he is interpreting and putting an original twist on different stuff from DC.

 

As far as I remember comic canon, White and Green are the result of thinking in certain ways, not a part of their biology. At least, when the writer remembers. At other times they are. And of course Red Martians don't exist.

Karmang was 'born' a Burner, and was reformatted into a White. He doesn't care about any personal prejudice he may have suffered, but is frustrated that none of his acolytes ended up doing what he wanted them to do.

 

What did he want them to do exactly?

I'm assuming he wanted them to lead, or at least teach magic to, the Martians, but all Martians no matter what their color is, and to treat them equally.

Is this it?

 

Very different thing. Crest of the Stars the anime space opera is not Sword of the Stars the 4X space strategy video game.

 

No, he wanted them to learn to undo what the Guardians did.

 

If he really wanted the powerup, he should have tried to kill Paul.

 

Paul has helped people that have tried to destroy him and those he cares about, Luthor being an example of one such person he has helped, but who has tried to have him and those he cares about destroyed.

That girl who called him for an interview after Roanoke is another example, though she didn't really do much of anything to him compared to Luthor.

Though I think Paul may have figured out that giving power to power hungry madmen who try to kill him is a bad idea, so he may not give this guy a ring.

Well if he changes his behavior during his service in the war, then he may get one.

 

Picking a fight with even one Lantern seems foolhardy. Because even if you succeed, you still then get only one weapon that a Martian or group of Martians can overcome with some effort and/or skill and/or luck - so not that big a game changer.
And you’ll potentially have to deal with said Lantern’s former colleague’s later when they come to check what’s happened.
No, trying to get in good with the weird glowing alien and get some rings the legal way seems like the more clever way.

 

I think that he was just making a joke that Paul sometimes empowers people that have tried to kill him.

 

Paul's about rehabilitation, if possible, and fits in with his desires. Today's enemy is tomorrow's friend (or lover or ally or just less homocidal or less likely to break the world).

 

Yes that was indeed the joke, that going about it the friendly way would be a good idea for most people but for Paul it seems like attacking him is the best way to get what you want.

 

My bad then. I might have felt a bit combative. Hope you didn’t have to roll your eyes too hard.

 

Karmang does appreciate some of the aspects of being a non-Burner so I assume he wanted a partial or controlled dissolution of the programming (I'll have to reread the Renegade episode he showed up in to be sure, though I do hope he wasn't killed off-screen). Did Jevek Jos Jar/another Controller use the Burning Martian specimen to create Effigy, or am I misremembering? That could be valuable data to share at some point too, especially since Maltusian oversight will likely be useful in preventing any serious accidents (as long as they aren't as weirdly naive as the Guardians from the crashed ship).

Did the Reds not fulfil his wishes out of genuine inability or did the incentives of a new hierarchy of power win out? We saw some cool magic feats from 'regular' Red Martians in the Renegade episode but hardly anything that compares to Earth's caliber (if it's fair to make comparisons with your local neighboring death-world). I imagine it was kind of a mix, especially since Reds do inspire a bit of majesty and are probably still more authoritative and prone to dominance, if not as violently so as their forebears. I forget how Hyperclan and other Martians got deprogrammed on Mars (I believe there were a fair number who didn't do so through Circe or Renegade).

Thinking of forebears, were Burning Martians also sexually dimorphic, or was that introduced through Guardian manipulation? They reproduced asexually in the comics but I don't recall what the case was here. I don't really see the reason why a species of shapeshifters needs to have that reproductive setup anyway, either originally or from the reformatting; a Left Hand of Darkness situation or something makes more sense to me.

How easy would a Martian magic user find transitioning to a wholly new arcane system like Earth? The Venturians don't seem to have had notable issues working on other planets, but I don't think we've spent enough time with the latter to know for sure. I'd like to see M'gann possibly learning magic, either the native Martian tradition as a fuck-you to the existing hegemony, or possibly developing her own style mixing her Martian abilities and Earth traditions. I know the G-Oni experiment was a disaster (and I forget if there are still some loose) but the Genomorphs should be interesting case studies to learn from, given the broad similarities of physical/genetic mutability and psychic capability.

Actually, regarding the Genomorphs, I know Doctor Mist appointed himself as supervisor for any magic they do, but they should also get Jason Blood on board, the better to screen for the most malevolent mystic influences (and it'll give him another reason to show up in the story, given his connections to Hell aren't that important in light of President Mammon's relationship with Paragon). Though Blood could also be a useful character to facilitate Paragon meeting Morgaine le Fey, if she ever shows up in that timeline. I forget how Paragon-Britain is doing in the aftermath of the Silver City invasion, but I believe a lot of the conspiracy/cult's infrastructure was destroyed, even if they weren't killed/were resurrected after?

My post jumps from topic to topic a lot, but I suppose shifting from Burning Martians to Hell has a kind of logical flow.

 

Jevekl used that Burning Martian to make Effigy.

And as for the Britain fiasco, the ones who dealt with demons were killed and the club was destroyed, though the others survived.

 

After Emma, I’m no longer surprised by female self-righteous Red heads.

 

maybe add a comma 'to speak, the Greens'

Ohh, I know Karmang is dangerous, but I can't wait for him to make an appearance and shatter her worldview.

If the episode continues like this then he just may.

'was talking'

Can we get a description of what this is?

'which fits' or 'that fits'

Missing a ' at the end there.

 

And if not, I fully expect that Paul will be able to make one himself, with sex workers, and gambling facilities.

 

Ah, an interesting solution. If the local Red Martian government wouldn't grant White Martians equality, just move all the willing White Martians to a new planet so that they can make their own government. I wonder what the Hyperclan would think of that.

 

Considering they're one of the most violent groups they may not all be onboard with the idea.

They may honestly want to take down the Reds first instead of going to someplace else.

 

Resurrecting Karmang, a legendary leader figure and blowing up Martian society just to get useful telepaths...is absolutely something Paul would do, yup.

 

Moving the whites to another planet looks good on paper, but the catch is that the ones who didn't leave due to having non-white friends or family would become even more of a minority than before and suffer backlash.

 

Or the green friends and family would come too.

 

He's probably not going to find very many willing given the standard Martian psychology.