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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Discussion in 'Creative Writing' started by Mr Zoat, Jan 27, 2019.

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  1. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    Thank you, corrected
     
  2. Nioz

    Nioz Know what you're doing yet?

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    Muahahaha!!! Myeeeees, OL, seeing you casually upend all of Martian religio-societal paradigms with just a few words is an amazingly delicious treat!

    I believe OL is setting up a situation where the Council’s outrage and need to base their justification on something that will shut OL up will drive them to accept his proposal. Only, you know, Karmang likely isn’t dead.

    EDIT: But OL doesn’t know thag in this worldline.
     
  3. theaceoffire

    theaceoffire Versed in the lewd.

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    I think I remember him trying to bring people back from the dead earlier in the story, and having something on the other side trying to sneak through in the process. I'm not sure necromancy's a valid process to pursue anymore depending on how many things on the other side are waiting to jump on it.
     
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  4. Chaoswind

    Chaoswind Lord of nonsense

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    It's this breaking continuity? When Constantine visited Atlantis with Paul, Aqua girl and the queen said necromancy isn't a widely studied field in Atlantis and that was one of the few magics the surface world had developed much further than them. So a competent Necromancer is one of the few mage types Paul cannot pull out of the Atlantis hat. So this is a continuity break.

    Paul should say he is friends with a few necromancers and after training with his grandfather for so long Cornwall boy should be a very good Shaman and competent necromancer.
     
  5. Osserumb

    Osserumb Getting sticky.

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    And a group of traditionalists will denounce the witness as false.

    "He is not orthodox enough! He goes against our group's traditions !"
     
  6. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    He said that it's not heavily restricted.

    This could mean that there aren't that many laws against it in Atlantis, but they're just not all that interested in it.

    Plus Atlantean sorcerers will most likely have a greater degree of knowledge on magical theory than most surface dwellers.

    And that was several years ago in this story, so some Atlantean deciding to improve his necromancy skills is a possibility.
     
  7. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    It's true that the surface world has more necromancers, but the Queen was mistaken. Surface worlders generally have no understanding of the theory behind what they're doing, and after what happened with the Lazarus Pits the SI rather wants that.
     
  8. CTrees

    CTrees Chasing the ring

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    Fantasy politics are often fun. Look at Babylon 5, or Game of Thrones, or the Dune series, or Vampire the Masquerade LARPing. It's only real world politics that is so generally unpleasant, because it actually affects us despite most people's limited ability to actually influence it, and how it raises the tempers of real world interactions. Thankfully, real world politics is banned here!
     
  9. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    Well politics for the last 20 years are banned.
     
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  10. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    The... Implementation of that means that it actually goes back a lot further. You can't, for example, talk about the gold standard even in a historical context.
     
  11. Chaoswind

    Chaoswind Lord of nonsense

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    So if they don't practice it how is the queen wrong? Demonology is absolutely banned and contacting the dead can often allow demons to piggyback on the necromancy spells, ergo necromancy is only a couple of step removed from being completely and absolutely banned in Atlantis by default. They may have some theoreticals on scrolls, but actual practitioners are unlikely to be more than a handful of Hades worshippers with maybe a couple of experts in absolute total (and I doubt it), however since contacting the Atlantean dead to resolve pertinent issues hasn't ever been done neither in Canon or this fic, Paul is more likely to find Necromancers in Themesira than Atlantis (and that is already extremely unlikely). If Paul wants Necromancer experts then his best bet is on London, not Atlantis.
     
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  12. DrThoth

    DrThoth I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    I believe Zoat means the Queen was wrong when saying necromancy was a more developed field of magic on the surface, since 'more developed' implies a level of theoretical knowledge that doesn't actually exist in surface world magical practice. I feel like Doctor Mist or Doctor Fate are better choices, maybe Angelica too.

    I don't remember how strong Atlantean cultural taboos against necromancy are, if any; Orm came back as a kind of undead water zombie, after all, though I believe he used Lazarus Pits or something. As Chaoswind points out, the fact that no one in either Paragon or Renegade timelines suggest necromancy to help resolve the Venturia issue does indicate the entire practice isn't viable.

    Mr Zoat, why have H'ronmeer be a relatively mundane disciple of Karmang instead of being an actual death god similar to comics canon? It could have been interesting to see Paragon (or Renegade) interact with extraterrestrial divinities and try to set up an interplanetary afterlife system or something fun.

    Edit: Also, I was rereading the segment where Paragon is held captive by Bane and has to talk his way out, and the Calculator shows up indirectly as a way to put Bane in contact with his father. I don't imagine the Calculator would have a great deal of information that Paragon or Renegade couldn't get via their own resources, but is there any chance he'll show up again in-story? He seems like the kind of person Mr. Near would use as a resource, at least.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2021
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  13. fluffy

    fluffy Not too sore, are you?

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    The more and more this episode goes on the more it feels like the south park episode where Thomas Crapper's ghost showed up and said they were sitting on the toilet wrong.
     
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  14. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    Because of how I'm portraying Martian culture and magic, it made more sense for him to not be a god.
    Probably.
    Yes, if he wants someone who meets the minimum standard to be called a 'necromancer'. If he wants someone who knows what they're doing with magic and can apply that to necromancy, Atlantis is far better.
     
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  15. Chaoswind

    Chaoswind Lord of nonsense

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    That would still be the white college or whatever it's called, not Atlantis by a long shot.

    I don't think it's a good idea to break continuity with the facts established in more than four whole episodes that Atlantis doesn't have the expertise or wide knowledge of a few branches of magic and that the surface world and places like Xerox has much better knowledge on a number of branches of magic (green magic, demonology, necromancy, teleportation, etc), it's even one of the key plot points in the Renegade side and why Grayven is getting magic experts from very different places to work together and help each other... If Atlantis has all the answers then that WHOLE subplot becomes entirely pointless.

    I could accept the answer if you had previously build towards it, like Constantine visit making Queen Mera decide Necromancy and other forms of magic needed to be heavily studied as well, or some other pertinent reason, without such build up this breaks SOD and continuity thus gets my strong disagreement.
     
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  16. Maxx Crowley

    Maxx Crowley I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    I know people feel OL should be more political...but to be perfectly honest, there is nothing stopping him from just yoinking all the Martians who want to come with him. Power ring, FTL, and their all gone before anyone can do jack shit.

    Granted, those Martians probably wouldn't be welcomed back but....given how whites are treated (Oof that was hard to write with a straight face) why would they want to?

    I'm reminded of a story I read....probably 15 plus years ago, where a mega powerful Telekinetic accidently cracked a planet in half while dealing with the occupants stupid, petty bullshit.
     
  17. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    The White College may not exist in this story, and if it existed then OL hasn't had much, if any, contact with it, so him trying to ask them to come to another planet with him when he has never conducted any business with them may not be all that easy of a sell.

    The College may also not know more about the theory behind magic than Atlantis does.

    Yes they may have more people who practice necromancy, but that doesn't mean their knowledge of theory is greater than that of Atlantis.

    Paragon also has not had contact with Xerox and may not know where it is or if it even exists.

    Zoat is not breaking continuity, you're just nitpicking.
     
  18. Someguy Somewhere

    Someguy Somewhere The Critical Fumbler

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    Also he knows another of non atlantian necromancer, she's still doing a world tour for hades last I checked....maybe she'll want to make it a World(s) tour instead
     
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  19. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    Yes, she is a necromancer and has experience with it, but she may not understand the exact process of what she does.
     
  20. Dakkan Sall

    Dakkan Sall Random Encounter

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    Just to check, but is the text size meant to change back to 'normal' here? I presume that such would indicate going to a more conversational volume rather than whispering, but there doesn't seem to be any IC reason to have done so.
     
  21. Stsword

    Stsword Versed in the lewd.

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    I think this story missed an opportunity with regards to Atlantean magic.

    YJ Atlantis is not a magic based civilization but a high tech civilization with a rather technology magical tradition.

    In YJ, Atlantean magic is based on iconographs, those "magic tattoos" like Kaldur has.

    Atlantean magic is based on channeling magic into those iconographs or technomagical objects, like Kaldur's Waterbearers.

    In short, those iconographs are effectively magical circuits.

    in DnD terms, there isn't a single actual spellcaster in Atlantis, rather it's a society that figured out how to make magic items and teaching people the Use Magical Device skill.

    So good at thaumatology, no. If they were good at thaumatology they wouldn't need iconographs.

    But think about it- Atlantean iconographs take in (magical) energy and then achieve specific results. Specific results like say control water, including the making of solid water constructs.

    Now think about it, what rather prominent iconic item in DC does that description remind you of? Hint- The main character of this fic wears a bright orange one on his finger.

    Paul could be encouraging the Atlanteans to increase their iconography until they can replicate the versatility of a power ring.

    It's not like magic has a built in limit towards versatility, because the Zatara logomancy would prove that a lie, and heck for that matter magic can be used to control the emotional electromagnetic spectrum itself- in the comics that is how the red lanterns came about, and in this story Druid used magic to control the Black.

    Paul's soul tattoos and Alan's transformation in fact suggest one could get a set of soul tattoos to absorb will/avarice/etc energy specifically to turn someone into a will/avarice/whatever elemental by constantly channeling that energy into someone's soul.
     
  22. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    Yes, she's translating at full volume and whispering everything else.
     
  23. Jack of Olives

    Jack of Olives Knows just enough to be dangerous.

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    [​IMG]

    ... Come to think of it; that would make for an interesting alternate reality. Fairly plausible, too; considering their comic book appearances, and the number of pictures of him with various lantern rings.

    ... Huh, now I want to see Paul interact with him.
     
  24. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    Ah, there are spell casters in Atlantis.

    We have been show Atlanteans casting spells, and some Atlanteans that do that don't even seem to have the tattoos.

    The tattoos help them, but they're still spellcasters even without them.

    Just because they use something to help them with their magic, that doesn't mean they're somehow not spellcasters or incapable of magic like you're suggesting.

    It also doesn't mean that they don't have an understanding of how magic works and the theory behind it, which is what Paul is searching for.
     
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  25. Sockmonkey

    Sockmonkey I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    One could argue that surface-worlders are more advanced in a handful of specific aspects of necromancy because they've learned the sorts of things you only find out by trying the kind of stupid crazy shit no reputable mage would think of.
     
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  26. Threadmarks: Back Seat (supplementary, Renegade Option)
    Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    6th July 2012
    04:21 GMT +3


    I watch through the one way glass as one of the latest batch of EDF applicants is interviewed. They're going over his employment history at the moment, the interviewee looking fairly cheerful as he explains his design portfolio to the nodding interviewer.

    Lex is sitting next to me, scrolling through the files on the rest. I turn my head his way, raising my eyebrows.

    "Has this been a big problem?"

    "That depends on your definition of 'big'. The fact is that people are often rather attached to the country of their birth. Even someone with no history with their nation's intelligence service is a risk. And, naturally, I can't tell you what percentage of security risks are getting though our screening, because..."

    "Yes."

    That's another reason why we're focusing our development efforts on Africa, of course. If your country was a corrupt shit hole before my allies 'arranged things', you're not going to feel all that emotionally attached to the institutions of state. If your country is only held together by external pressure, are you going to spare it a second thought when you get a better offer?

    As the developed world's immigration statistics tell you, the answer's a resounding no. Which makes the place perfect for us. Company towns as far as the eye can see. Incorruptible genomorph-supported policing. Good roads. Reliable water supplies. Schools, admittedly focused on supplying the EDF's need but the EDF needs everything. There's a government around somewhere, but we're making a MegaCorp here. I doubt… Ah, what's this place-? Ogaden, that's it. I doubt Ogaden as a notion attracts a great deal of loyalty.

    So in twenty years we'll have a huge number of well educated, well trained 'post-nationalist' employees, but for now we're mostly looking for people who don't care all that much about their home country but either care about our mission or are prepared to learn to care about the EDF.

    And don't work for their home country's intelligence agency like this git.

    "Want me to have a word with the Chinese?"

    "No, I think it's best if you don't mention it. Obviously they know that I'm working with you, but I doubt they'll comment on it unless you force the issue. It's better to keep the good will." His eyes flick my way as he smiles. "It's not as if anything you say will make them stop."

    I nod, and return my eyes to the interview being conducted with their latest effort. Lex has happily been accepting offers of seconded military personnel from everyone who offers them, but their political masters have swiftly realised that we're not giving them access to design schematics, let alone the more sensitive parts of the EDF's technology catalogue. So they're getting thorough demonstrations on how to use Dr. Metcalf's equipment but without any real idea how to replicate it.

    So many things we're not able to patent for fear that someone will do something stupid with the knowledge. Or worse, clever.

    "It's starting to get a little difficult to recruit people who aren't from Africa."

    I frown, turning to face him.

    "Surely there are enough idealists for what you need?"

    "There's a very narrow Venn Diagram overlap between people idealistic enough to rise above their patriotism, strong willed enough to resist pressure from their home nations and skilled enough to actually be useful. And we have to make sure that they stay that way."

    "Do you want to accelerate the colonisation schedule?"

    That would be… Difficult. Life-bearing worlds tend to bear life. Most of the immediately-habitable planets in this Sector already have people on them. Quite a few of the marginal ones as well. We have the technology to build habitats, but what's the point? There isn't much they can do that can't be done far more easily on a planet. The worlds we've tentatively identified as possible expansion targets aren't all that appealing places to live and won't be at any point in the near future. There are a few nicer worlds in the region that no one's using yet, but they're far further away which… Causes its own problems.

    "I don't see that we can. Unless one of our colleagues has a way to rapidly terraform an entire planet."

    "I don't know of anyone with that capacity. If I could get hold of Swamp Thing and… Somehow talked him into it, he could accelerate the growth of local plant life forms. But terraforming requires that the entire ecosystem develop together."

    "I don't suppose he has an equivalent for microbes and insects, does he?"

    "Not one I've met. Distant colonisation is far more feasible. We'd have to make a bigger effort to make friends with the neighbours. Probably a good idea to come up with a casus amicus in advance. Want me to take a look?"

    "No. I'll take a flotilla and make a good will tour."

    "That's.. not really a thing, on other planets. Turning up with warships doesn't exactly shout 'friends'."

    "Then I'll have to establish another tradition. Mister Mere, do you have enough?"

    The g-goblin nods slowly. I've noticed that the LexCorp g-goblin isn't anything like as expressive as the others. Even the older ones. Not sure why that is; Lex has been making an effort to be more genuinely personable lately, particularly when compared to the way 'old' Lex used to treat aliens. To say nothing of telepaths. Old Lex would have rather given himself root canal chirurgery without anaesthetic than rely on a telepath like this.

    "Mercy, tell Mister Keates that he can conclude the interview at his leisure."

    A nod and a touch of a computer pad.

    "How was… Pony Land?"

    I bow my head slightly, smiling as I do so.

    "Equestria."

    "Gesundheit."

    "Thank you. It's a wonderful place. Almost like a children's animated series brought to life. A… Well written one, with the occasional competent adversary-."

    "I'm familiar with the type. My media companies produce several."

    "Interested in doing a documentary on the other side of the mirror? The videos of Luna are generating a farcical amount of attention, given what else is going on around here."

    He pauses, then pushes his datapad aside and gives me his full attention.

    "Has your paramour agreed to that?"

    "Not yet. Though honestly, I think she'll find the whole process fascinating." Hm. "I may have to remind her that she doesn't need to project her voice so much with modern microphones. She was born in an earlier age and has a very healthy set of 'addressing the troops' lungs."

    "That is an interesting idea. And meeting a friendly alien species will serve to encourage people to consider the less militant aspect of interstellar expeditions."

    "Could do a series, then. Mars has more or less stabilised, and Tamaran's populated by orange swimsuit models."

    He nods. "Mars, yes. But while our ships are perfectly capable of reaching Tamaran, it would be a stretch on our supply lines."

    I… Think for a moment.

    "How quickly can we put together a long ranged exploration vessel?"

    "A dedicated one?" I nod. "I'm sure that Doctor Metcalf has a design. We can't really afford to refit an existing battlecruiser, but we could probably assemble one inside a year. Why?"

    "There aren't any heavily fortified obstacles between here and Tamaran. The only outstanding problems are raiders. And no one will expect a dedicated explorer to fight actual warships. So there's no loss of pride if I arrange for the ship to be met at the other end by a friendly fleet."

    "And it will serve as a further encouragement to anyone interested in peaceful space travel." He nods. "I agree. I'll draft a request for Doctor Metcalf."

    I smile broadly. "I do so like living in the future. Don't you?"

    Behind me, Mr. Keates smiles as he shakes hands with the failed Chinese spy and sends him on his way.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2021
  27. Pez

    Pez Spaceman

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    I sense there's something here, but I'm too stupid to parse it out fully.

    Thanks for the chapter!
     
  28. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    'second thought'

    maybe 'nation'

    maybe 'seasoned'

    'strong, willing' or 'strong and willing'

    Probably not a good idea to leave Luthor alone on a warship and then send him into space.

    The chances of him going going all "Ahh, ME GOD-EMPEROR OF MANKIND, LOOK AT MY SHINY GOLD" are kinda high.

    Especially if the one running that ship is Luthor.
     
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  29. Agent Orange

    Agent Orange Experienced.

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    That sounds like... Hey! You want Enterprise!
     
  30. thepsyborg

    thepsyborg Not too sore, are you?

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    I'm not entirely sure, but I suspect this is intended to be G-gnome-supported policing.
     
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