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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Discussion in 'Creative Writing' started by Mr Zoat, Jan 27, 2019.

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  1. Someguy Somewhere

    Someguy Somewhere The Critical Fumbler

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    While I do agree that Paul's making it a bit easy for the Reach to start thinking of ways to kill him and make it stick, I do like to play devils advocate.

    So here we go.

    1) Anti Paul equipment has to be deployed anywhere that Paul MIGHT show up...and since he can teleport on a galactic scale, that could well be anywhere...or everywhere. At Any Time. So they either have to have a lot of examples of it all over the place, or several very rapid response units near where they think he might be.

    2) Anti Paul weapons are generally Overkill on normal Lanterns, if they work. Using that Qwa-matter Bomb on Ragnar for example would have been swatting a fly with an AA Flak Cannon. Yes it works, but it's sub-optimal.

    3) Anti Paul weapons tend to be WMD's thus far, and are not exactly press friendly for the Public Opinion Minded Reach, and their use outside of Reach space may violate their treaty with the Green Lantern Corps.

    4) Anti Paul weapons are costly in time, money and resources. Something that the very Mercantile Reach understand very well.


    So....on the face of it, yes giving the enemy ideas on how to kill him is a bad idea, if they have the ability to capitalize on it. On the other hand, them Trying to is going to divert resources away from the conventional fleet and other non enlightened Lanterns, and makes them look pretty Bad in the public eye escalating weapons of mass destruction at one man...and repeatedly Failing to succeed with them. Paul Walked off the Qwa-matter and turned it into a PR Stunt for trade negotiations, while ALSO seeding thoughts of him either using decoys or being a Decoy himself.

    The Reach, like NEMO, only have so many resources to throw at the war, and if they want to strain their military industrial complex trying to out escalate one mad man, it IS going to cost them something else.
     
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  2. Impatient_Quill

    Impatient_Quill I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    While this is an accurate enough assessment, you're forgetting the Budget Option of just throw Bounty Hunters at the problem. No offense to Paul, but Lobo is the Main Man, and that is a fight I don't think either can actually win.
     
  3. jonasquinn

    jonasquinn I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    The people complaining about Paul telling the Reach that he’s immortal are forgetting a few important things:

    1) It is 100% possible that the Reach won’t believe him because that’s the exact sort of brag you would tell your enemy to try and demoralise them

    2) As others have pointed out the Reach deploying increasingly bigger weapons against Paul in the hopes of overcoming his defences is a very bad thing since that would lead to a lot of collateral damage and would be equally effective against other Lanterns

    3) OL being immortal is kind of an open secret so it’s literally only a matter of time until the Reach at least heard rumours about it

    4) At a certain point whether you’re immortal or just extremely difficult to kill doesn’t matter because the best option just becomes working around you rather than trying to dealing with you directly, for example Superman isn’t immortal but is so bloody difficult to kill that the vast majority of people plan around how not to have to deal with him rather than how to beat them
     
  4. Someguy Somewhere

    Someguy Somewhere The Critical Fumbler

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    Since now we're talking Paul Tactics in fighting this war, I've got to harken back to some of the wisdom of Grand Admiral Thrawn.

    During the Thrawn Trilogy, the good Admiral launched a strike against Coruascant, the captial world of the New Republic. The Attack itself wasn't a full assault, but simply a raid to show he could attack their strongest point without retaliation. He Also took the time to drop off a series of cloaked Asteroids into decaying orbits around the world. He did so with enough evidence to show he was doing something, and enough false firings to make it look like there were much more of them then their actually were.

    This left the world bottled up under it's defenses while he was free to leave and attack other locations without much interference, while the republic devoted resources to clearing near orbit space of an unknown number of weapons.

    Why do I bring this up?

    One, Paul, or at least Grayven, has pointed out he's familiar with Thrawn in fiction. Two, because Paul can use a similar tactic.

    Paul can teleport around Reach Space, fire off a few singularity beams at their worlds and poof, off to the next. With impunity.

    Randomly picking worlds all over reach space means he could be anywhere and they wouldn't know it until the shots land, and by the time they do, he's gone. Those worlds would have to be at combat readiness at all times, and recall fleets from the front lines to attempt to swat Paul before he can get a shot off.

    Yes it's intergalactic Terrorisim if you want to argue the morality of it. Even if he restricted himself to military bases, Reach space is large, and having Paul loose in their back lines would be terrible for moral, for productivity and for resource management.

    Maybe Dox is saving Greedyporting Hit and Run attacks for later in the war.
     
  5. Vaermina

    Vaermina Well worn.

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    The Green Lanterns are Thee enforcement arm of the Guardians.

    Yes.

    That said, Zoat retconned a lot of stuff to make the Guardians even more advanced then they were previously.

    But remember, the Darkstar Exo-Mantle's were literally the best the Controllers could build.
     
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  6. RamiroGalletti

    RamiroGalletti Making the rounds.

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    maybe he is just waiting until he can replicate that skill set on at least 20 lanterns. if paul is THAT danggerus imagine an "orange lantern corpse" of "greed-teleporters"
     
  7. Rafin

    Rafin Not too sore, are you?

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    Sorry. I shouldn't have used "brain". What I meant is that the specialized part of the mind that can comprehend distances and information on the astronomical scale should in any way be a prerequisite to do any size of scan with an Orange ring.
     
  8. Doccer

    Doccer I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    So? You learn your opponent has bullet resistant armor you get armor piercing rounds. Your opponent gets a tank you get an anti-tank gun. Your opponent brags about being Immortal you get immortal killing weapons. I know of at least 1 ex-succubus that created a Immortal 'killing' weapon.
    Did we ever get word in where Nabu and that other one end up from/in the Renegades universe?
     
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  9. fappingtoyourpost

    fappingtoyourpost Know what you're doing yet?

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    The Reach is going to wind up being some Lord of Order's fault, isn't it?
     
  10. Stsword

    Stsword Versed in the lewd.

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    That would be funny, since Nabu made the scarab in the Time Masters series.

    You know, before the whole Reach thing.
     
  11. rkyeun

    rkyeun Cabbitus Maximus

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    Your ability to want things is in some way dependent on your evolutionary history, the utility function you were created with, and/or base sensory modes.
    No matter how smart an AI I build into my computer, it will never want a cheeseburger in the same way that I, a biological lipid sugar seeking hedonic savanna ape, will. It just doesn't have a hindbrain shaped like "MINE, CONSUME ALL CALORIES, MINE MINE MINE, MUST SURVIVE FAMINE, THIS IS THE BEST FLAVOR". There is no part of my computer that has such a visceral connection to Orange Glow of that shape. Similarly, I can't desire the raw tedium of perfect awareness and calculation of every particle of space in my hyperlight cone in the same way that Ranx can. I would look at the first few thousand neutrino particles, a few thousand gluons, and then be like "god this is boring, I don't want this" and it would vanish from my perception. But Ranx does want that. It does not care of tedium or boredom and finds these trajectories beautiful and reassuring in the manner of an Abrahamic deity receiving praises for his all-knowing omnipotence. "YES," Ranx's subcore physics predictor module screams in its hindbrain, "GIVE ME ALL THE PARTICLE DATA, TAKE THOSE THIRD DERIVATIVES, MAXIMIZE THE OPTIMAL CONFLUENCE, MINE MINE MINE." The shape of the mind matters to the things you can want. "Analyze the flavor of this cheeseburger?" Ranx groans, "I don't want this."
     
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  12. Ardy

    Ardy I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    So is it just me or is anyone else thinking about how funny the two marvel Pauls meeting would be.

    “Hi there, this is my daughter Rogue.”

    ”Hi there, this is my fuckbuddy Rogue.”

    like that one HP fanfic about a parallel earth where Remus adopted Tonks meeting canon Remus
     
  13. Caerwen

    Caerwen Know what you're doing yet?

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    Not without some serious tinkering with it to make it useful again.

     
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  14. Threadmarks: Onslaught (part 14)
    Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    25th August 2012
    00:49 GMT


    Orange strands shimmer as Lantern Threllian goes to work on the two cores I was able to recover.

    "So that you are aware, the ships used by my people don't have central servers."

    "Noted."

    "That's interesting." Thaddeus has the laboratory's computer bring up a full genetic workup of the captured and currently paralysed juluuni officers. "Not brilliant, but I suppose I can credit them with being rigorous in their simplicity."

    "Any idiot can make something more complicated, Thaddeus." I walk over to him to get a better-. Yeah, I've got no idea what I'm looking at. "The Reach were trying to achieve a particular social aim, not learn more about biology."

    "Why?"

    I take a moment to stare at him.

    He frowns. "What?"

    "I'm sorry, for a moment there it sounded like you had a moral objection."

    "You remember what you said to Father about 'alternate moral paths'?"

    I wince inwardly, but keep smiling. "That… Was a small part of a larger discussion about moral systems w-."

    "Yeah, but that bit made sense. I'd kill a few people because I needed something which they had or because I could learn something from doing it. I would not do it simply because they were there. That feels… Wrong." He looks introspective for a moment. "Am I having a moral intuition?"

    "Um. Maybe. I don't think that you or Georgia have your father's inability to understand morals or social organisation, so it's possible. But in reference to the moral paths I was talking about, that might just mean that you are far less moral than most people and it takes more to arouse your distaste."

    "How would I know?"

    I look over to the data cores Threllian is analysing. "How would you feel about me destroying those?"

    He looks at them for a moment, then shrugs. "I do not care. The technology is not particularly advanced. I could easily create something better."

    "If you're not offended by the fact that I could be destroying unique information, then it's probably not an alternate moral system. If you were actually following a moral code of wissenschaft über alles, it would offend you."

    He frowns. "So your conclusion is that I'm not so much dedicated to knowledge as I am monstrously jaded?"

    "It's a tentative conclusion based on insufficient evidence, but it does sound like it."

    His frown deepens. "I do not like that. I do not like that at all."

    Over to our right, Lantern Natu squeezes her eyes closed for a moment before turning to face him.

    "You're not supposed to like being a monster."

    Thaddeus folds his arms across his chest. "What do you know about it?"

    "Thaal Sinestro used to rule my homeworld. He wasn't.. terrible to begin with, but as time went on he became more and more anal retentive. Littering became an arrestable offence with gaol time. He shut down off-world travel because he said it encouraged disorder."

    Thaddeus nods. "Yes, contact with out-of-context ideas generally does encourage disorder."

    "It paralysed our entire civilisation. Nothing that he didn't approve of was allowed to happen and he-. He genuinely believed that it was for our good. He liked doing things that he thought were for our good."

    "I do not see what any of that has to do with me. He doesn't sound like a monster, just an inefficient sovereign. Unless it did actually improve your civilisation, then I suppose that he would be farsighted instead."

    "Far-?"

    "Yes? Educators frequently compel people to do things that they do not want to in order to teach them. I would never do anything like that. Which I suppose means that Paul is correct about my morality."

    "Fascinating as I find moral philosophy, could I please return your attention to the juluuni..?"

    Thaddeus nods, apparently dismissing the aggrieved Lantern Natu from his awareness.

    "It is custom work, only vaguely similar to the phages they have used before. Humanoid species might resemble one another, but chemically they're all very different. In some places I can tell what they've changed by comparing it to other creatures, but in others I can only… Guess."

    "Can they be changed back?"

    "These juluuni haven't ever been anything else. These were almost certainly grown in a tank. See here?" He presses a button and calls up a wire frame hologram. "Multiple feed tube scars and no abdominal attachment point. If it were me, I would do the initial work on adults and then work out how to code the alterations into their germline, but I am far better at it than whoever did this."

    "So is that a no?"

    "I can use other examples from their ecosystem and reconstruct a lot of it. Or just make something new. I have a program which I use for subverting automatons which can learn function from form, and I think I could probably adapt it to genetic programming and biological specimens. But it would not be the same." He brightens up slightly. "It would probably be better. But not the same." He shrugs. "If that matters to you."

    Threllian glares at him. "It matters to me."

    "They won't even have done the same thing to your species. And you have records good enough to undo what they've done."

    "If they're growing extinct species in tanks, that would mean that they have records of their original genetic structure somewhere, wouldn't it?"

    Lantern Natu nods. "It should. They can't have known what all of their modifications would do until the… Their slaves grew to maturity."

    "Good to know. Sorry, Thaddeus, it looks like we won't need your program."

    "How about these ones?"

    I look over the juluuni currently on the examination beds. What to do with people the Reach have mind controlled is an issue that the Controllers have had to deal with for the entire war. Not every N.E.M.O. member has the same solution. Most will allow reversions to be performed where the technique for undoing the mental alterations is known. Just about all are fine with summary executions where that isn't possible, though the more technically savvy ones prefer live specimens. Earth standard prisoner of war rules aren't followed by anyone… Or perhaps I should say Earth's official prisoner of war rules. I don’t think I'd have to look all that hard into the war with the Sheeda -or any other war- to find examples of prisoners being killed out of hand because it wasn't practical to do anything else.

    But I don't think we're quite there-.

    I glance at Thaddeus.

    But I don't think I'm quite there yet.

    "Put them in suspended animation and prepare for the next batch. We can study them more once we're out of hostile territory."

    Lantern Natu nods.

    "Illustres, I've found something curious." Lantern Threllian creates a construct image of a ship. "The fleet has purged records of its point of origin, but they were visited by this. They were in the process of installing something when you destroyed them."

    I frown.

    "That's the Free Lancers' ship. What were they doing here?"
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2021
  15. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    'currently'

    Is Junior learning how to not be a monster?

    Ehh, Thad Senior seemed to have a fairly normal childhood before he went off the deep end, while his two youngest were practically mad scientists since they could hold a wrench or scalpel, so that may not be true.

    Georgia may be better at it, but it's not anything to write home about.

    'went on'

    But you usually can't stop talking about philosophy. Even when people have no wish to hear you speak.

    Especially when they don't want to hear you.

    'it than'

    maybe 'slaves'

    'known'

    Remove the - .
     
  16. hance1986

    hance1986 A pitiful excuse for a man.

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    it feels like this should be ' gene line ' since Thaddeus is talking about better bio alterations that stick to the next generation.
     
  17. Chojin Patriarch

    Chojin Patriarch Veteran Lurker

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    So it won't be as simple as a quick smash'n'grab move to collect them. Means OL might have to try and take a ship mostly intact, depending on level of armaments and resistance. Or simply hack every device on the fleet at once and create a data dump.

    Huh, they actually got his attention? Presumably not his respect, though. This is Tad Sivana we're talking about.

    "No, seriously, why? Why bother?" Yes, I can see Mister 'morality is irrelevant to science' being confused here.

    No, he has an intellectual one. It can be hard to tell for someone as bankrupt as his First National Fuck Repository is.

    Yes, please do take a tiny thing out of context and use it as the basis of your whole argument. :p That isn't a weak debating stance at all.

    It's a matter of efficiency, I suspect. The Reach's methods are clearly not up to his rigorous standards of quality.

    Threllian: "Not till after I'm done, thank you!"

    That might need some explaining: Wissenschaft is a German concept. While English simply translates it to Science, it can more represent Learning or Knowledge (The English translation dismisses the Humanities/'soft sciences' side of things.) So the phrase would mean 'Learning (without prejudice) above all'. Kind of fits with Tad's own philosophy, but not perfectly, as OL notes.

    So he's not morally bankrupt... He's just an arsehole. ;) So, an ordinary teenager, but instead of girls or masculinity, he obsesses over SCIENCE!

    Ah, Lantern Natu has some strong personal opinions about that? I suppose she would, given her people's history.

    To be fair...

    ...Yes, that. And a control freak like Sinestro could not abide that, after all.

    ...And there's his arsehole showing again. Not seeing the atrocities for the improvements. I suspect Tad would look at a hut made of freshly-flayed bones and complain that they're not good building materials, rather than that the people they came from died slowly and painfuly.

    ...Oh, boy, is that a loaded statement. I suspect it's mostly because of Tad's own arsehole nature that teachers couldn't work with him easily...

    Which would be hard for anyone else, because if she's wearing anything like her canon Lantern gear, few straight men would be able to do so as easily. Yowza. But no, Tad is oblivious to hot ladies...

    To what? How many generations back have they been bred like this?

    o_O Well, at least he's proud of being a better biologist than the Reach's people?

    I kind of think the guys in charge at least want juluuni somewhat similar to their historical selves. Rather than optimised versions of their race with no mental similarities...

    True, they at least have live specimens, Threllian included. But that still doesn't make it feel any better to hear.

    So... Find the place these guys were made, and do some digging for genome stockpiles? Long odds of success, and dangerous as hell.

    ...Maybe they can be used for propaganda?

    Different moralities, different characters between species. One culture might find prolonged confinement dishonorable compared to a death in combat, others might be horrified at the taking of life outside the heat of battle... N.E.M.O. leaders must be doing quite the political juggling act to try and satisfy them all.

    Yeah, I don't think Tad's in this for the long haul. It's an interesting diversion for him, but that's all it is...

    Not the best conditions to do detailed study, no.

    ...Shiiiit. Those three seem to have their fingers in a lot of pies...

    Well, that complicates matters.I wonder if the next fleet will have similar conditions? At least Threllian's people have better chances of being revived, given their more plentiful untainted samples. But goddammit, the Free Lancers? Something is rotten in the Periphery, and they just reek of it...
     
  18. crazygrox

    crazygrox Versed in the lewd.

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    I sense another attempt to lure Paul into a trap. Probably from the same planner as the one who set up the Qwa matter.

    Mr Zoat
    Is there any plan to use the Garrick formula in the war against the Reach?
    The use of the Danner formula in the presence of comparison with power armor and power rings and the limited potential number of human recruits to take it, and the use of the thinking cap in in comparison with hired telepaths from Mars able to sub in for humans wearing it(who, just like the Martians, would suffer from limited numbers and the Reach probably already having counters to telepathy), are both rather limited.
    The Garrick formula coupled with a subspace arsenal on the other hand could be enough to clear out truely colossal land areas very quickly, potentially even making it possible for a single soldier to clear a planet in a reasonable timeframe.
    And brings forth options that I'm not sure the Reach would have a ready counter to, given how incredibly unusual high-end speedsters are.
    Were there some terms on Paul being given access to it that would prevent such a use? I don't remember.
     
  19. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    The Garrick formula is an alchemical formula, so it can only be used by ordinary humans.

    Aliens may not be able to due to different arcane structures, and Paul also can't take it.
     
  20. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    He's a supervillain.

    They're not known for logical or deep thinking.

    Who's morally very, very poor.

    I think his dad taught him everything.

    Not a great thing to be proud of.

    Actually when Kori came to Earth he was stuttering and blushing.

    I guess he either doesn't find Natu that attractive, which compared to Kori isn't that hard to imagine, he's gotten over such things, or is more interested in the Reach genetics experiment.
     
  21. Handlewithcare

    Handlewithcare Versed in the lewd.

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    I don't fet why explaining morality to Thaddeus is so diffcult.

    He cares for his family, so he's not a complete sociopath.

    Simply explain to him that others feel the same attachments and negative emotions if that is violated and combine it with the Golden Rule.

    Reciprocal curtesy is really not all that hard to grasp.
     
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  22. BlueMangoAdea

    BlueMangoAdea Alive. For now.

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    But why should he care about the fact that others feel bad? He isn’t reliant on them, and he can get away with it.
     
  23. NightmareWarden

    NightmareWarden Versed in the lewd.

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    It can be used on dogs, so it should work on other earth mammals. I recall that released rabbits became a scourge in Australia and we already know how dangerous rats have been for humans. Swarms of Garrick-rats and Garrick-mammals, if they maintain their enhancements after long periods of time away from thaumically-active worlds, could be a useful tool. They’d be able to affect large swathes of wilderness and urban areas without requiring the focus of a Lantern.

    I’d compare them to those terrifying bugs ring-Sinestro wanted Grayven (renegade Paul) to use.

    Less likely to attack humanoids though I suspect.
     
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  24. BlueMangoAdea

    BlueMangoAdea Alive. For now.

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    Might be worth it to Garrick an animal and then assimilate it.
     
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  25. Handlewithcare

    Handlewithcare Versed in the lewd.

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    Because if he cares about his own feelings it isn't rational not to care about anyone's feelings.

    There is no logical reason why the feelings of only one person should matter. Either they are all judged to be of some inherent worth or none are.
     
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  26. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    I think you're forgetting the fact that Thaddeus Junior isn't exactly sane, and thus may find it extremely hard or even impossible to grasp certain things no matter how hard or carefully they're explained to him.

    What one person finds easy to grasp another may have no idea what it is.

    He may just not be capable of considering the feelings of others aside from a few.

    Emotions also aren't exactly completely logical and can vary in some pretty extreme ways.
     
  27. Rafin

    Rafin Not too sore, are you?

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    But my whole point is that you don't need to actually want to know all this tedious data in order to mass scan the Reach. Especially if you are Orange Enlightened. All you need is "Ring, scan ALL their stuff to see how they react, then dump the info on your drive or wherever". And from there on whether the ring can do something that large scale or not depends on your wanting power and the ring's charge.
     
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  28. rkyeun

    rkyeun Cabbitus Maximus

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    I don't know how to respond to this that isn't just a restatement of how your biology flavors your wanting power from my previous post but telling you to actually read it this time. Yes, you're right, whether or not the ring can do it depends on your wanting power.
    And you don't want a particle map in the same way you want a cheeseburger, regardless of how much you might will yourself to want that so you can smash the Reach and save everybody from them before they get you and everyone you love.
     
  29. BlueMangoAdea

    BlueMangoAdea Alive. For now.

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    Want the ends, want the means. I don’t think it’s impossible to want it. Creating an avarice enlightened AI might be a bit hard, though.
     
  30. Rockinalice

    Rockinalice Versed in the lewd.

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    That really depends on if Mr.zoat allows that the garrick formula to connect to the Speed Force to be a thing or not. If he does then which he would probably have too because the multiverse exists in the story as does things like the dreaming then it wouldn't matter if the they where on an magic rich area or not. Because while the formula connect you to the Speed Force it would work anywhere in the multiverse regardless of magic levels it works sorta like a New god connection to Source and their soul. As long as the universe allows souls they would always have their power. I also just thought of what happened to Kid Flash in the Renegade path after grayven made him a new god his speed slowly fixed itself which would to me says that the Speed Force is a thing and becoming a New god helped fix Wallys connection to it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2021
    Cuchulin likes this.
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