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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Discussion in 'Creative Writing' started by Mr Zoat, Jan 27, 2019.

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  1. ForeverShogo

    ForeverShogo Not too sore, are you?

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    As far as I understood it, the Dominators basically had the Earth under siege without the Earth being able to really do anything about. If the JSI had to throw supervillains under the bus to end the siege, who the fuck cares? Like, seriously, should they have just let the Dominators keep attacking without the means to retaliate? Cutting a deal was the sensible move.
     
  2. megrisvernin

    megrisvernin Connoisseur.

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    It's a tough play to make. I think in the situation it's not unreasonable, though he should have made it public and accepted the consequences.
     
  3. 0zymandias

    0zymandias Making the rounds.

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    I imagine she views Obsidian as a write off already, that due to how damaged they are, the practical options are killing them or making use of brand new weapon in their arsenal; and between the two options the latter is far more palatable.
    I can already hear the fascist counter; 'at least the trains ran on time'.
    He can but that can only work when he cares about the person he's working on and it's nowhere near a practical solutions that could be applied on larger scale, I think he's only done so once. Also seems like he did, it seems that Green Laterns are rarely good fathers.

    Interceptor seems to have a simplistic view of the world, I think it might be less that she's found her inner humanitarian rather than she's had her image of Commander Scott tarnished somewhat. He's likely been portrayed as the greatest protector of humanity against the Dominion and now he's found to have actually negotiated and given away humans to the enemy.

    Churchill made his career on how his stubbornness to fight the Nazis, and his legacy was defined by it. Only then it turns out that he was perfectly willing to come to terms had they given a better offer.
    If this mission pushes Paul to take a good hard look at his current philosophy and reconsider where it might take him. It's a good one. Hopefully we see a bigger Justice League but one without fascistic overtones.
     
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  4. Ganurath

    Ganurath Apologizes For Nothing

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    Ah, so Scott invited the Dominators over to remove evidence of the prisons being mismanaged, with the other prisoners being added to the mix to conceal the motive.
     
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  5. Vaermina

    Vaermina Well worn.

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    Eh. I would say you're worse.
     
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  6. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    It's a matter of scale, and the fact that they used it as a rallying cry for fifteen years.
    The SI doesn't know the source.
    Thank you, corrected.
    He doesn't know enough about neurology to only change the bits he needs to change.
    Well...
    Not quite, but still wrong.
    Thank you, corrected.
     
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  7. FreeGod

    FreeGod If you see a God on the road fuck it!

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    Paul has gotten used to being the Devil's advocate among groups of very idealistic heroes. When the heroes he is with aren't it throws him off a bit. He knows how to deal with villains, but right now he was using the wrong set of social assumptions.
     
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  8. BR549

    BR549 This is filth! FILTH!!

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    When this is all said and done this is the moment Paul added +1 to his Supergirl collection, isn't it.

    There's a teeny, tiny, difference between "this supervillian we can't cure was stuck in this machine by evil aliens and he's too dangerous to take out of it, we might as well make use of him" and "the world's greatest hero willingly handed over thousands of prisoners to an alien invasion force as tribute and then claimed they were abducted".
     
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  9. Bramble Thorn

    Bramble Thorn Verified Silhouette

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    Is everyone who ever paid a ransom because someone else had a gun, and was pointing it at peoples heads?

    What about some rural sheriff confronted with a lynch mob who outnumbers and outguns him and his deputies, who is given the options of turning over a prisoner for a hanging, or the whole sheriffs office very likely getting overrun and killed?

    Make no mistake that the blame should be laid first and foremost on the Dominator Invasion Fleet that had their guns trained on Earth when the deal was brokered. And it is to his credit that he did his best to build up Earths defenses so they could only be extorted this way once. And that he acted to get them beck the moment it became practicable to do so. And that he was willing to do it knowing it meant his own son would be one of those taken.

    No comment on the coverup though.
     
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  10. Old Knife

    Old Knife Not too sore, are you?

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    On one hand we don't know why he did these things in the first place.
    On the other hand... Wait a minute. Where is demon supergirl?

    Anyway. Time for genocide 3:Return of the Paul!
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2022
  11. Prince Charon

    Prince Charon Just zis guy, you know?

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    The coverup may be what Interceptor is most upset about. She's (arguably) a fascist, but she's an honest fascist (and now I'm imagining her having a conversation with Overgirl, and having another horrifying revelation).

    I think they were going in without her first to make sure that the locals were OK with her going back, or something like that, so she's still on Earth-16p.
     
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  12. FeepingCreature

    FeepingCreature Not too sore, are you?

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    Yeah I think the coverup is almost the main moral problem here. There's one thing of doing a bad thing in a situation where all your choices are bad ones, and there's a whole other thing "leaning in" and using it to your personal advantage.

    Sometimes the universe is terrible and only gives you terrible choices. That doesn't change whether you're part of it becoming better, or part of it becoming worse. Scott made himself part of it becoming worse here.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2022
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  13. RichardWhereat

    RichardWhereat Aia airëa Fëanáro.

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    Having more options lets you choose the most humane method, and refine the others.
     
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  14. goricnac

    goricnac I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    So I think one of the issues Interceptor has here is that apparently a lot of the prisoners they handed over were there for minor offences. This isn't handing over everyone in blackgate, this is handing over every prisoner the JSI had in any facility they controlled.

    Remember they were being investigated for getting people with minor offences killed by experimenting with power suppressors, they handed over not just murderers, but also shop lifters, people with DUIs, minor drug offenders, hell wouldn't be surprised if there were people there who's only crime was not being able to afford bail. Every JSI run facility was handed over, this isn't handing over the joker, this is sentencing Captain Cold to a race of Mengeles to cover up your crimes.
     
  15. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    Themyscira, Reformation Island. They wanted to check the destination before they took her back.
    I wouldn't call her a fascist. The JSI doesn't control the economy, and there's no 'enemy within'.
     
  16. Tyrantviewer

    Tyrantviewer lord of all I survey

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    Okay has anyone here seen the second Kingsman Movie because spoilers ahead.

    In that movie the villian contaminates basically every illlegal drug in the world with a virus that will cause in order, blue discolorations, uncontrolable dancing, paralysis and then death- with her having the only cure. She offers to give the cure away for free, if all of those drugs are made legal, and she is pardoned of everything (I think, she is nuts enough that maybe she didn't include that) planning to become even more rediculously wealthy by then being able to sell all of it above board. She chooses to negotiate with the U.S. president as the representative of the free world, because she considers the United Nations Toothless. The president decides to do nothing, just stall for time until every drug user dies, winning the war on drugs by eliminating demand, crippling the villian's opperations because they have no more customers and fixing everything- at the cost of millions to billions of people dying of horrific, preventable disease. He is arrested after the heroes save the day- either because they revealed what he said (they are spys) or because one of the victims was his aid, who took uppers as part of mannaging the rediculous workload he gave her.

    What we have in our story here is similar- alt Scott was waging a war on crime, that apparently already had shady stuff going on, anyone who looks up Marvel's civil war comics can see how that can happen, and decides to sell out the super criminals to get the dominators to leave. This is leavened by the fact that he jumped at the chance to go and rescue everyone, but the facts that he and interceptor are fine with leaving his son as a power source for a power nullifier, and that he kept his deal with the dominator's secret.

    This also reminds me of how several fanfic interpretations of green laterns and the guardians are implied to have issues because of TOO MUCH willpower, too stubborn to listen to other points of view or reconsider their own choices, so the guy made mostly of green light falling into the same trap isn't surprising.

    In any case the issue isn't just that he sold out a chunk of humanity to aliens without telling anyone, its that he apparently covered up some crimes of his own doing so, using an alien invasion to bolster his own agenda, clearly contrary to law and order, undermining a lot of the values Interceptor shows to be a part of his regime- anti alien sentiment, harsh but fair dealings with criminals etc. This one reveal throws everything into question because when else was he willing to compromise his apparent ideals for expediency and what what else is he covering up
     
  17. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    Well fuck.

    Not too surprising since he nearly died.

    I think they'll be eager to embrace whatever you give them.

    Yes.

    Oh no, they let him out of sight.

    Crap.

    "reaches"
     
  18. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    Thank you, corrected.
     
  19. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    It probably has something to do with the fact that he willingly gave those people to the Dominators; a group a lot of people from Earth despise and which has caused a lot of damage to them.

    John likes to do these types of things from time to time, and he really despises hypocritical authority figures.

    He could, but he probably wants something that can be mass-produced.

    It may not be their area, or their crazy and you don't want them anywhere near it.

    And that was never even true.

    Heck, with Scott giving Obsidian away, he probably would have doomed Earth far more than it previously was.

    Imagine them using Obsidian to block all power on Earth.
     
  20. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    Some may want their condition to end no matter the cost.

    Sucker's bet.

    That may be difficult.

    He already had some anti-Lantern tricks before Quinn.

    When he was in Atlantis, he was able to blow some smoke out of a protective shield Paul had him in.

    She has some fascist tendencies, so of course she's like that.

    Plus, she may feel that while it's okay for them to do horrible things to people, it's not okay for others to do it.

    I'm guessing a fight is going to break out and then John undoes it.

    Or just an argument that shows Scott trying to defend his actions, only for John to tell him to piss off and then undo it and watch in glee as Scott little fascist world falls apart.
     
  21. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    'glares at'
     
  22. inglorius

    inglorius Getting sticky.

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    This should be oranged.
    That aside, stuff like trading out undesirables kinda is a green thing. Just look at all shit guardians pulled.
     
  23. Chaoswind

    Chaoswind Lord of nonsense

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    The JSI is under investigation for egregious human rights violations and the dominators JUST HAPPENED to attack the earth to take a bunch of super villains and people off the planet and leave without actually casually fucking it over with orbital bombardment and sending them back to pre industrial level as any sensible "evil" space Nazis would have done?

    Constantine is implying a lot more than men taking hard choices while hard under a bad situation, he is implying the JSI caused the bad situation.

    This would be more in line with Paul getting egg in his face for just helping them witout verifying their claims.
     
  24. Bud-E

    Bud-E Stand up so I can push you down!

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    Did Commander Scott offer the prisoners so the Dominators would stop attacking earth as a sort of trade agreement? Cause if so what about the non-criminal Metas were they captured before or after the deal was made?
     
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  25. Chaoswind

    Chaoswind Lord of nonsense

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    I actually wonder why the Dominators came to earth, took a bunch of super villains and "random people off the planet" and then left without sending earth back to pre industrial levels, and how the JSI just became the world government as a result of the power vaccum.


    The fact the green lanterns didn't do shit smells terrible for commander Scott because we know one of the ways to bypass Green lantern law enforcement is to show them you were invited to the planet by the local authorities, so putting all the evidence together results in the JSI inviting the dominators to take a bunch of their prisoners off their hands and causing enough damage to allow the JSI to consolidate power and take over the planet.

    In short in this parallel the JSI is the light and their plan worked to a T. They even managed to dupe an idiot over powered orange lantern into cleaning their tracks by getting rid of the evidence that remained. I wonder if Paul will come to that conclusion on his own or if Constantine will have to walk him through his idiocy.
     
  26. Coda

    Coda Versed in the lewd.

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    The SI has been using the ring for long enough that he doesn't have to intentionally exert avarice to trigger ring functions anymore. For the last... year or so? When the text is orange it's because he's putting special effort into it or because it's necessary to communicate to the reader that he's using a ring function when it wouldn't otherwise be obvious.
     
  27. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    Thank you, corrected.
     
  28. Stsword

    Stsword Versed in the lewd.

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    That's not general policy, that's the terms of the specific treaty the GLC has with the Reach.

    I've never seen a version of the Dominators powerful enough that the GLC would feel a need to make such a treaty.

    And since Zoat had them use Khundian mercenaries in this invasion (not mentioned in Trinity, but certainly possible) they don't seem like an exception here.

    I suspect the lack of GLC interference has more to do with Earth not wanting GLC help. For example if the Dominators attacked the Cooperative from which Icon is from, the GLC wouldn't interfere, because the Cooperative asked the GLC to respect their sovereignty.

    The universe is a big place, if a civilization tells the GLC "We will take care of ourselves, you focus on the planets that need your help" the GLC will likely respect that declaration.

    So I imagine when the invasion happened Sur was helping people who actually wanted his help.
     
  29. Windona

    Windona Beetle Queen of Crackshipping

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    Gotta love Constantine here. And the fact that Paul is getting a taste of what he sounds like.

    Now I'm really wondering what E16 Green Arrow is doing.
    I'm leaning towards the 'JSI caused the situation and are the baddies' but will listen to the motive rant. But yeah, the fact they went to how to use Todd instead of help was a major warning sign.
     
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  30. Pinklestia

    Pinklestia Well worn.

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    Problem is, the Dominators wouldn't leave forever.

    Is the sacrifice humans lives to a dragon thing.
     
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