With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

When it comes to Mecha, Rule of Cool applies. Though with the lore dumps I read, I would still want to see Paul in a Mecha setting. Just to see the frustration at trying to sort out the local Mecha loons.

 

No point, Zoat imports laws of physics so the actual reasoning for everything kind of goes out the window.

 

At some point, most giant fighting robot stories come off like this time me.

Spoiler: Everyone has their Kink

 

Try this thought then.

You're the Tau'ri, and your world is in a bad spot. It's a single world under threat by a civilization of vastly larger scale, higher technology, and deeper logistical depth. And that larger civilization is known to be highly aggressive and to be run by egotistical psychotics.

Now, you've found one member of this larger civilization who is:
A: Clearly aware of your world, including modern idiom and cultural referents.
B: Not aggressive.
C: Willing to peacefully interact with you, even to the extent of inviting you into positions of influence in his domains.
D: Apparently not interested in tattling on you or sharing his knowledge of your world with the rest of his civilization.

And the fucking idiot who you sent to that position of influence within his domain gets caught questioning the fundamental basis for his government structure and insulting his species.

Even from the 'emotional valence' of the Tau'ri, that's a serious reason to be rather pointedly annoyed at the moron they sent to that position. Especially since by doing so, it creates an opportunity for said being to reinforce their position (which you as Tau'ri obviously do want to undermine eventually).

This incident will make the Tau'ri look like prejudicial assholes who abuse hospitality and undermine their allies. And it will make Mammon look like a benevolent and reasonable god who takes heresy and personal insult as an opportunity for gentle and public instruction. Which is directly antithetical to the SGC's long term goal of dismantling the Goa'uld as a society.

Teacher-lady just strengthened Mammon's position and prestige, but did it in a way that sacrificed her own rep and the rep of the group she represents. And she did it for free, not as part of a quid-pro-quo agreed upon ahead of time for some trade off on Mammon's part.

 

I hate to be that guy but I think the discussions on mecha belongs in its own thread or over DM's.

 

You're assigning a lot more care to this then the SGC likely did.

 

I'm kind of hoping Mammon doesn't just point out that trying to undermine his society by preaching against his godhood to toddlers is unethical, and that she should debate him in the open if she wants to discuss that. But that she used an ethnic slur while talking about him behind his back.

Because when you come at it from the idea that snake-head is a slur based on his race which seems reasonable to me it becomes both difficult and hilarious for the SGC to have to defend it.

The military might not care about it but Daniel would be torn between his morals and disgust and Hammond is political enough to see that it potentially changes the narrative from simply different views shared with poor judgement.

 

Sure, the SGC has a sustained pattern of that.

The point was to indicate to the poster I quoted why this isn't just a screwup from a protagonist centric 'they aren't letting the protagonist roleplay being a god' perspective. It's a genuine diplomatic gaff, whether the SGC will in story notice they made it or not.

 

It's not a diplomatic gaff.

The people they sent to "Mammom"s world wouldn't be diplomats, they would be sacrificial spies who they fully expect to get snaked.

 

That would be very out of character for anyone on the earth side. Why would earth send people to die deliberately?

 

They're sending their people to teach on a Goa'uld held world under a reigning Goa'uld.

Normal expectation would be the SGC wouldn't do that because the Goa'uld just snaking them would be too much of a risk.

But that's off the table because Zoat wrote them showing up there. Which means we gotta reason out what type of people the SGC would be willing to send to such a situation. And the only answer to that, is people with no real value who know functionally nothing.

Hell, they wouldn't even have been allowed to know any Earth gate addresses or GDO codes.

 

In my favorite Stargate fics Teal'c reasoning on abandoning Apophis was that Apophis was a false (Oath breaking/unworthy) god and not a false (fake) god, if only because Apophis is still powerful enough and close enough to being immortal that he might as well be a god.

 

Whatever else is going on in Paulmon’s world and however competent he might be in other areas - this is shit PR. Neurotypicals will not take away the message you want to impart from this speech.

 

"Uplift" isn't necessarily the word most would use.

And becoming dependent on them to live.

But it has been influenced by several other religions from the area.

Which also drew on other traditions.

Probably because the Goa'uld don't want humans to get more advanced because then their next rebellion will be even more bloody.

Honestly the mention of the benefits of genetic memory made me think of an ATLA/SG crossover where a Goa'uld scientist says that the genetic memory wasn't a natural thing for them, and that it apparently actually damaged their development since being born knowing practically everything about the world around you means your curiosity wouldn't really develop, so the Goa'uld are stagnating.

 

I honestly love this Stargate-insert more than I do the Young Justice story!

This latest post is particularly interesting. I'm binge-watching the show now, and I notice that the Goa'uld make a lot of dumb moves. I really like how Paul-mon is engaging SGC in a political battle rather than the classic Goa'uld "wage war and crush them." Your take on Stargate is fascinating and I look forward to reading more.

 

Agreed. Finding this more interesting than recent Young Justice parts. Might be because I'm a Stargate fan and not a Young Justice fan though.

 

i wonder how much of a debate this would have started back in ye day had this been an actual SG episode

 

I have never seen an episode of Stargate before and have also been enjoying these.

If I had to analyse, it's probably anti-life. The main story has been anti-life this, anti-life that and while it is a big event that will inevitably have big consequences felt for a long time, it's getting very stale.
These episodes are a breath of fresh air.

 

I did not know I needed more star gate in my life but now I am re watching the series just because of this. Please keep this going.

 

Not inaccurate, since the 'uplift' was not entirely willing on the human's part. But Paulmon's painting it as a noble, higher power choosing a worthy people and guiding them into greathood. How many religions have things like that as a central tenet, again?

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

And talking up the worthiness of his soldiers, of course. Though admitting that the goa'uld symbiote is an 'infant god' might be a little controversial. Then again, that's what the Jaffa are told, is it not?

"...From a certain point of view." Shush, Obi-Wan.

Which is parsecs more permissive than many of his colleagues would allow.

To quote someone upthread...

Hard to argue he isn't a god with performance like that.

Ooh, courageous, to beard the serpent in his lair. (The second verb meaning, to confront and/or oppose)

Heh. Nice legalistic trick. Get her to define the term as she means it, and show how you meet all the criteria.

...Ah. And there we see one of the issues, then.

And for any regular Goa'uld host, that would be accurate.

He can be both. Had to do something until the divinity woke up, after all.

In Paulmon's defence he is technically an atheist himself, and his knowledge of bible canon is probably a bit fuzzy, yes.

Bet that got a few gasps from the rubes. Though Bastet will be interested to know how he managed it. Probably be explained as 'An illusion. My symbiote I never actually left its my rightful place.'

Few religions spring fully formed from the mind of a single creator. Those that do... Usually said creator is very charismatic and persuasive.

Entirely true. The classical Bible is even an adapted version of the Hebrew holy books with some editing and some new bits. Though discussion of it might be beyond the bounds of this thread, so let's leave it at that?

Ah, and now he refutes her argument, hmm?

Well, at least they know that much.

Time and the resources. It's not like a Goa'uld can build a warp drive out of rocks directly.

Clarke's Third Law. Or to put it another way: One man's magic is another's advanced science.

And not just in the 'move mouse, press buttons, see results' angle, either. Modern technology is rather arcane to those not learned in its principles...

"If someone asks if you're a God, Ray... You say 'YES'!" Turns out the Goa'uld follow that logic well.

Joy of being able to apply a bit of intimidation to prevent 'qualifying' arguments... "Yes, but..." "It's not that simple..." "Well, actually..." So annoying when people try that stuff to avoid giving an inch.

If they're happy to call him a god, whatever the reason, then he's a god. It's that easy. The problem is largely that earlier Goa'uld didn't give people the option of debating the point.

Probably confused by all the grown-up talk. Most kids probably tune out when adults start talking about things the kid doesn't understand much.

Hah. Well, it'll make sense when you're older and wiser...

See, now that command, she can get behind.

And it had better be passed on, or he might get irritated.

Not exactly the greatest debate in the history of the System Lords, but neither participant was especially talented in that respect, Paulmon's showmanship aside. Still, he got some measure of agreement out of the lady, and set a precedent about certain derogatory terms visitors might use for Goa'uld. Now, how will Bastet react to hearing of this discussion...

 

Completely agree. This whole thing is so wrong and yet I'm captivated. The Goa'uld are slanted towards greed so Mammon is just speccing that way and helping them be better gods.

I kind of want a cutaway to the SGC briefing room and Hammond and SG-1 listening to a recording of Mammon's quietly insane speech and their reactions. Because this is actually more dangerous than if Mammon was just another snakehead trying to kill them. Because this speech indicates Mammon will not roll like a cartoon villain.

With what has been said about Goa'uld and their racial memory and affinity with advanced technology which was mentioned here, Paul accepting buffing Bastet and her side because he identifies with them enough to do his own Sim Civilization thing is what I see. This conversation with the teacher has reinforced his position, not weakened it. A long elegant explanation of things his humans and Jaffa only understand parts of has washed over them and seemingly binds them closer to him.

 

Either she's pandering to Mammon out of fear, or she's an idiot.

Because there are so many ways someone even half way intelligent could have picked that little speech apart. That there's really not other options.

 

Sort of a weird, recursive argument showing that the goa’uld memory download effected him quite badly.

“Of course when I spent my entire life telling those mud farmers I was a magician, I meant I was very practiced at slight of hand. It’s very narrow minded of you to insist that I don’t really know magic, you couldn't build the retracting blade guillotine from scratch the way I did. No, it isn’t important that everyone from my culture is a genocidal, maniacal serial rapist because we killed everyone who wasn’t.”

 

Having done some religious debates in my time, I have to say that Paul's argument is pretty shallow. Semantics is just... semantics, and you're not addressing the real issue, which is whether he is a being worth worship and respect. And equalizing the terms "god" and "snakehead" seems like a remarkably bad idea; people might start using them interchangeably, which will greatly offend the other Goa'uld.

This conversation would be best kept as suppressed as possible, since it really just undermines Goa'Paul's dignity without meaningfully convincing Duxley of anything.

 

’than your’

 

Honestly the Stellar Reich fanfic timeline ?I think it was Zoat? mentioned in the thread is making me want to rewatch stargate so I can write a fanfiction of that continuing it.
Into my pile of fanfics I'll write a couple dozen pages for then never finish I guess.

There are some very interesting directions to take things, as comparing where that left off to the timeline puts it ending shortly before contact with the Orbanians, contact is re-established with the Tollan having captured Skarra, first contact would have been made with the Aschen in a timeline where they didn't use time travel to prevent that, and an infested Asgard ship nearly brings Replicators to earth.
And in the absence of an overriding threat, and having just gotten access to their own space fleets, a decent blueprint for how to go about building an orbital defense infrastructure, and being liable to get a non-goa'uld seat on the council of system lords where negotiations will likely pit them against the other system lords, the earth nations in that would be quite likely to start pushing around the edges and trying to indirectly conflict with the Space Nazis.

I'm saying it ended right before some interesting, though open-ended stuff is all.

 

She's not a debater and Paul spring this on her.

 

I don't think the show would have been willing to go there in this manner, since it would probably hit the censors and the argument would get canned. Having a snake (especially one with a name like Mammon) win a debate like that just wouldn't have been acceptable, IIRC.

Duxley wasn't anywhere near a skilled enough debater to make that issue clearly the point, and anyone who would be, would also probably understand enough about the political implications to not get into this situation in the first place.

 

WHAW, you've been... Toughing this out like a champ.

Thank you, corrected.

Was Odin? Loki? Do you have any idea how many people God murders in the Bible? Do the Aztek pantheon stop being gods because they eat hearts?