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Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

I believe we were told that before Celestia started learning the Lores herself and started having ponies poke the Eldritch mysteries. Circumstances around the spooky magics have changed.

As for taking forever to teach the Lores, yeah,of we wanted Cadance to be have 4s in all her stuff like Luna, that'd take ages. But she doesn't need that as an Alicorn to slap some horns back together, because unlike Selene Cadance has a treasury with Artifacts ready and willing to sub in for her trash-tier lore levels, and enough money to pay off Velvet for the cost of making some really good reagents.

Although part of me now imagines a scene where Celestia discovers her own copy of the Forge's Redemption and orders Shining "repaired" so that he can better serve the kingdom.
I thought it was because Cadence does not have any Moth and thus can't hide her Lore knowledge from Celestia. As for treasury, it assumes that Celestia allows Cadence access to strange and powerful artifacts.
 
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I thought it was because Cadence does not have any Moth and thus can't hide her Lore knowledge from Celestia. As for treasury, it assumes that Celestia allows Cadence access to strange and powerful artifacts.
Even if she doesn't, it'd be pretty easy to find and acquire the artifacts necessary, considering we're presumably about to befriend the expedition-specialist Name and if we study the Lantern 4 artifact we'd get access to a scryer w/ 3 AP (hint hint). And we can use them later for All In, so it's not like it'd be a waste of time to go looking for a couple of nice Forge and Grail artifacts.

Or, if that's too much effort, we could buy a couple of Level 3s as long as Cadance is willing to fund it. Lower success chance, but lower is still like... 80%? Assuming Cadance rolls a +20 base.
 
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[X] Return home, with Diary, Frangiclave, and something else besides. Or rather, someone. (End the dream, bringing Twilight Sparkle with you, and redistribute your remaining action points.)
 
Even if she doesn't, it'd be pretty easy to find and acquire the artifacts necessary, considering we're presumably about to befriend the expedition-specialist Name and if we study the Lantern 4 artifact we'd get access to a scryer w/ 3 AP (hint hint). And we can use them later for All In, so it's not like it'd be a waste of time to go looking for a couple of nice Forge and Grail artifacts.

Or, if that's too much effort, we could buy a couple of Level 3s as long as Cadance is willing to fund it. Lower success chance, but lower is still like... 80%? Assuming Cadance rolls a +20 base.
Well ritual also involves Cadence hammering on Twilight horn with a hummer, but I guess she can practice on Shining first.
Also if Juicer is the Forge artifact then we won't need to search for the Forge one.
Only to convince Twilight that this giant press here is for totally innocent reasons.

Although I would rather focus on Midday Dew and introduce Forge Redemption through him. Then see if we can recruit Twilight into Eclipse. We are also talking with Midday this turn. Maybe we can ask him to send job invitation to Twilight. Or ask if she is willing to be test subject for newest health recovery methods. Both approaches are kind of long term though and we may not have enough time.
 
Honestly I don't really get why we would even want Mirror Twilight that much?
We made our bed and it is time to lay on it and stop making excuses with unreliable, in this case, morality.
If you think she won't repair Shining's horn asap and then offer to do the same for Twilight, then I don't know what to say.
Her horn isn't the main issue, it is the lesser issue.

The true problem was that her friends didn't listen to her, Cadence didn't listen to her, Shining didn't listen to her, Celestia ignored her, her parents are dead, Spike is dead.

Giving her her horn back just makes her more capable of hurting herself and others, because really, do you think she will not try to expose Velvet when she recovers her horn?

You are coping for the best scenario while ignoring reality and the RNG, a mistake we have made several times before.
The best we can do for her is to stop screwing with her, because the swap is not a cure.
Leaving her alone also isn't a cure, and that's something that we will most likely do due to the action economy hell.
 
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When it comes down to it, Twilight is a problem no matter what we choose.

Pros: If we swap them
1. we get the bonus of a student who will practically be an extension of us, then we'll have another pair of hooves to do work for us.
2. if she is able to aclimate and adapt well enough, we can help with some of the moral of a few of our people.
3. We could likely do the same thing with her, and either recruit her into the Bureau, or maybe even somehow get her into Celestia's Lore research team as a mole for us.

The downsides:
1.it'll take up some action economy to make her worthwhile,

2. Her getting found out in some way. Which I believe we can avoid if we're careful enough, and honestly, I wonder what the Searing Lantern Mirror would show, because she IS Twilight Sparkle, maybe even if it's not quite the same one. Theoretically, it could not show anything as they share such a similar nature/soul.

3. Pony!Twilight on the mirror side, instead finally snaps, I've never seen the EQG movies, but if she were to go the path of Midnight Sparkle, going mad and trying her best to take her Lore knowledge, and attempt to make her way back through to make Velvet's life a hell, Sunset Shimmer's possible aid?

Now if we don't swap.

Pro:
1. If Softy can draw her in to her aid group/Wolf Cult, and Twilight falls the last few steps needed, we can get a new Daughter, a tragedy, but better than her killing herself or becoming an adversary/enemy.

2. If, and I mean IF, we can manage to take the time to get her better mentally, we could somehow get a miracle role to get her back into our orbit willingly, and retake our student back, maybe her main Lore changes like Jade's did, a representation of her being broken and rebuilt.


Con:
1. Taking time, and resources, to heal her horn, and build up her hope and confidence. Likely having to use intermediaries lead or draw her down to be of use to us, even if she doesn't know it.

2. As mentioned, if she gets her horn back, there is a decent possibility that she'll attempt to take us down, or spill some of our secrets to ponies we very much don't want her to.

Kay, this is really all I've got for now, may or may not add more later.
 
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What, precisely and exactly, is the plan for helping Twilight's problems if we leave her in Equestria?
Sometimes the only and best possible answer from Velvet in particular is nothing?

It can be a very hard lesson to learn for those who need to learn it, but there are situations where one person simply cannot approach another without making things worse for whatever reason, but where there remains the space for external intervention or the passage of times to change things on the other person's end.

Since recovery != willingness to interact with Velvet or a desire to have her current status communicated to her, right?

Edit:
Like, I'm not saying that Twilight will get better if we do nothing (she may get worse yes), but I am saying that all we can and should do is hope, because active action that we know of will make things worse short of us suddenly becoming an Hour or the chosen of Harmony?
 
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but I am saying that all we can and should do is hope
Wait and hope is all good, but sayings don't apply the same in every situation, we have no guarantee that doing nothing is the best thing to do.
because active action that we know of will make things worse
If we shouldn't pull the lever because we may make things worse we might as well give up alredy, because as shown before, sometimes we have to choose our poison, and inaction certainly wasn't the better choice those times.

The refusal to commitment is why we are in this situation in the first place, years ago when we choose the middle point between betraying the Cult and being loyal to the Cult.
 
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Yeah, even if Luna can't make her full public return yet, being able to do at least part of her job again should be broadly beneficial to Equestria.
actually I'll ask.

@OurLadyOfWires you said VElvet is not willing to interact directly with Twilight.

Would she be fine giving the task to Selene? As in "sooth her nightmares specifically, give her good dreams, MAYBE even recruit her to help with daybreaker or push her to try and get closer to her friends, explain the Celestia situation and why she left her alone (to protect her from Daybreaker)...?

Selene doesn't even need to mention Velvet in any way, just that she's working on "bringing her sister back to what she was" IF she reveals herself.

Maybe do a combo action: 1 action giving her good dreams about spending time with her (former?) friends, and then we send FLuttershy and Rarity to visit her and try to help, and through them maybe try to include Applejack, Pinkie and Rainbow.

basically, can we try to nudge her through dreams to move on, and then push our confidants (and Cadance) (and through them the other element bearers) to follow up on it?

Show Cadance the results of the Forge's Redemption now that she is with us more than she is with Celestia, and let her use it as she sees fit. Y'know, that thing that is about to be revealed to her this turn. Miracle healing raises a lot less questions when an Alicorn does it. If you think she won't repair Shining's horn asap and then offer to do the same for Twilight, then I don't know what to say.
asap indeed, BUT depending on the risk to Velvet she MIGHT be willing to wait some time. Keep in mind we can't exactly teach her the lores when Celestia can SEE if someone has lore affinities... unless she can justify learning them somehow, ideally WITHOUT pointing to Velvet.

She presumably has high magic bonus from "Alicornae", but on its own it's not enough. I suppose we could give her reagents and she could pretend she bought them from alchemists...

I find this to be a really hollow argument when "we've" already had Velvet make a decision for what is basically personal gain:
not the same. That's arguably a wrong decision, but it was taken to make CADANCE happy.

Sure, it benefited Velvet too, but I think her reasoning is that it helped CADANCE first and foremost, and that she mattered more than Shining basically. Plus a bit of "Shining near certainly would be happier too".

While a violation, one that we CAN rationalize as "it all ended up for the best".

This will NOT end up for the best for Twilight, and it's a worse violation. There we arguably pushed Shining to propose, but he already loved Cadance. Still wrong, of course, but not as wrong as kidnapping and banishing pony-twilight to another dimension with fake copies of family and friends and acquaintances that are NOT the real ones, and will involuntarily try to gaslight her into everything Equestria-related being a delusion.

It's not the same choice though.
Velvet has shown that she's willing to ignore another pony's free will for what she thinks is best for them, i.e. Shining Armour proposing to Cadence.
This choice is about ignoring another pony's free will for what she thinks is best for someone else. EQG:Twilight and Velvet will profit, not pony!Twilight.
exactly!

First time she COULD justify it to herself as "I'm doing it for them", "it won't hurt anyone".

This time it's definitely hurting someone, and worse someone she CLAIMS she cares for AND she feels guilty for.

So it can be seen as either "I want her out of the way to no longer have this reminder of my guilt in front of me", or "I NEED to fix it, even at the risk of breaking it more!"

There's been a whole lot of people getting on their high horse about the morality and how terrible and selfish it would be to do the Twilight swap, but I haven't seen anyone actually answer the questions I posed a while back. What, precisely and exactly, is the plan for helping Twilight's problems if we leave her in Equestria? How many resources will we devote, and will we see it through in the face of chaotic events and demands on our limited time? Until these are answered, I continue to view leaving her in Equestria as simply a way to ignore the problem and kick the can down the road until it's too late, all the while pretending our hands are cleaner this way.

The fact is, here she'd be in a society where psychotherapy has become an actual scientific discipline, as well as being surrounded by people who genuinely love her, even if they don't believe what she may say about ponies and magic. People who would actually be there for her, not just "maybe Cadence will drop by when her duties bring her into the same town." And giving her a clean separation from magic might well be healthier for her than leaving her there struggling to open a door with a splintered horn stump. Putting Twilight here honestly seems like the more ethical choice than keeping her in Ponyville staring at the wall, alone, while we hope a deus ex machina someday somehow fixes it.

I frankly couldn't care less if people want to accuse Velvet of being selfish by doing this. If the ethical choice and the selfish choice are the same thing, Velvet can be as selfish as she wants and more power to her.
My main hope is Selene's dream-soothing, and if allowed maybe having HER recruit Twilight for her efforts to "fix" Celestia.

In any case, the psychotherapy argument doesn't convince me because they won't be trying to heal her depression, but to heal her of her DELUSIONS of having been a unicorn in the magical realm of Equestria.

It's like trying to cure Cancer by treating it as a viral disease, or heal a cut like you would a poisoning case. They'll apply the WRONG treatments to her problems.
 
Would she be fine giving the task to Selene? As in "sooth her nightmares specifically, give her good dreams, MAYBE even recruit her to help with daybreaker or push her to try and get closer to her friends, explain the Celestia situation and why she left her alone (to protect her from Daybreaker)...?
I don't know if we should really be recruiting Twilight to the Daybreaker situation. Having Luna sooth her dreams is really the furthest we should ask her to meddle if we can ask at all, and anything further should be up to Selene's discretion.
 
We made our bed and it is time to lay on it and stop making excuses with unreliable, in this case, morality.
I don't think that's a very good reason, as this was an optional side quest where we lose literally nothing by not accepting it. On a more practical level, Mirror Twilight won't actually be that useful, as Jade is already a powerful Lantern ally, it would take us 3-4 turns at the minimum to make her comparable (when we're already on a tight schedule), and comes with the extra hassle of making sure the ponies who know her don't realize something is off.

Her horn isn't the main issue, it is the lesser issue.

The true problem was that her friends didn't listen to her, Cadence didn't listen to her, Shining didn't listen to her, Celestia ignored her, her parents are dead, Spike is dead.

Giving her her horn back just makes her more capable of hurting herself and others, because really, do you think she will not try to expose Velvet when she recovers her horn?

You are coping for the best scenario while ignoring reality and the RNG, a mistake we have made several times before.
In the initial Grail roll that got us stuck in this situation, there was a possibility of using the Forge's Redemption to salvage our relationship. While that may not specifically apply anymore, having her horn back will probably help at least a little with her mental state (as her Cutie Mark revolves around magic, and the show tends to imply that a pony not being able to do their talent can cause/exacerbate mental issues).

Also, we don't actually know the specifics of Twilight's mental state besides "she's depressed and lonely", so what specifically she does if/when she gets her horn back cannot reasonably be predicted.

Leaving her alone also isn't a cure, and that's something that we will most likely do due to the action economy hell.
I would say it's less of an Action Economy issue and more that Velvet had been asked point-blank not to interact with her, and she is seemingly too guilty to talk about it to anyone else.
 
My main hope is Selene's dream-soothing, and if allowed maybe having HER recruit Twilight for her efforts to "fix" Celestia.
You are trying to reach too high imo, i don't really think that soothing her dreams or somewhat revealing, because Twilight isn't dumb, that Velvet knew about Luna are going to be good for Twilight or Velvet, because what will Luna tell Twilight about her dissapearance? And Twilight will ask.

While hoping for the best people ignore preparing for the worst.
 
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You are trying to reach too high imo, i don't really think that soothing her dreams or somewhat revealing, because Twilight isn't dumb, that Velvet knew about Luna are going to be good for Twilight or Velvet, because what will Luna tell Twilight about her dissapearance?
Wdym "what will Luna tell Twilight about her disappearance"? She could... just tell her most of the truth? That she re-experienced her memories of what turned her into Nightmare Moon, it re-traumatized her, and she spent the past year or so basically sleepwalking as a child to preserve her sanity.

I think "how did Velvet know about Luna" would be more incriminating than "why did Luna disappear"?
 
I don't know if we should really be recruiting Twilight to the Daybreaker situation. Having Luna sooth her dreams is really the furthest we should ask her to meddle if we can ask at all, and anything further should be up to Selene's discretion.
It's mostly Selene's decision anyway. Daybreaker is HER problem, for the most part. I'm just brainstorming possibilities.

You are trying to reach too high imo, i don't really think that soothing her dreams or somewhat revealing, because Twilight isn't dumb, that Velvet knew about Luna are going to be good for Twilight or Velvet, because what will Luna tell Twilight about her dissapearance? And Twilight will ask.

While hoping for the best people ignore preparing for the worst.
Luna hid because she had to recover after an evil "mental" attack, and only recently recovered enough to come back, and found out her sister is unstable.

No mention of Velvet necessary in the short to medium term
 
@OurLadyOfWires you said VElvet is not willing to interact directly with Twilight.

Would she be fine giving the task to Selene?
My guys, I love player agency as much as the next person. But I need you to understand the Twilight boat sailed away a long, long time ago.

The current vote is the result of an impossibility made manifest by the particularities of your situation. I basically looked at what I wanted to do with the Snekrament, and realized that "yes, you CAN put two and two together and offer them this". But even that was locked behind a side quest and hidden behind two consecutive actions that were competing for attention with several other paths.

So, I need you to understand that if you guys signal to me that you won't be taking this Twilight, my life will go on as if none of this ever happened. Of course I have plans for the current pony Twilight, because I am not about to completely ignore the literal main character of half the setting of this quest. But Velvet already had her chance and lost it. And if you guys decide to pick the "an exception has occurred" option, we will go from there.

Still, besides the practical "mechanical" changes, both options have their own moral implications and you should not ignore them. Because that also tells me what Velvet is and isn't willing to do.

But regardless, while I certainly care for this vote, and this isn't just a flight of fancy I threw at you for the sake of throwing at you, I am legitimately just observing you guys because now is the time for me to observe. And if Velvet decides not to take Twilight, there is no reason for the current status quo to change. Velvet will be far too busy dealing with DoA, and the rest of the already-planned turn, to worry about any of that.

In short, "no". I have no desire to let pony!Velvet readdress pony!Twilight back in Equestria, if you decide not to do the switch. And we are too close to a possible ending of the quest for me to be interested in a derail like trying to reconnect with her. Because for all that you guys are rightfully worried about the very real vote that is right in front of you, I still have Celestia's Lantern level written on my notes.



Good morning everyone. I hope we all have a pleasant day.
 
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My guys, I love player agency as much as the next person. But I need you to understand the Twilight boat sailed away a long, long time ago.

😭 😭
... We need to study the Moth 5 book yesterday.

Well, can't help Twilight, might just not ruin things further then and leave that to whoever can do something about it.

nah, it's not THAT urgent.

even in the very worst case she can't get more than 1 level of Lantern per turn, so we're safe for another couple turns. We have plenty of time to study the moth 5 book (or find a different one) and to prepare the minion to "sacrifice".
 
How did you even come to that conclusion?
Look at the situation objectively. Velvet won't do anything with pony Twilight ever again. And we know that the Wolf cult wants Twilight, and they are the only remaining faction, that cares enough to work on Twilight.

This means the Twilight will be bought into the Wolf cult by being the last option left for Twilight. And their is no better place for a final confrontation with Wolf Twilight then the gauntlet of final mission, the final reward for screwing up every single interaction with Twilight.

The pattern with Twilight has always been try to be nice and its the wrong option, every single time.
 
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If you believe that is the only question she will ask you are very, very wrong.

And with the QM talking i'll say it, helping Pony Twilight is a sunk cost fallacy.
No I dont. Which is why I was confused why you singled out the question of Luna's disappearance as the thing that would cause issues, and not... pretty much everything else?
 
Look at the situation objectively. Velvet won't do anything with pony Twilight ever again. And we know that the Wolf cult wants Twilight, and they are the only remaining faction, that cares enough to work on Twilight.

This means the Twilight will be bought into the Wolf cult by being the last option left for Twilight. And their is no better place for a final confrontation with Wolf Twilight then the gauntlet of final mission, the final reward for screwing up every single interaction with Twilight.

The pattern with Twilight has always been try to be nice and its the wrong option, every single time.
Okay, there are 2 things wrong with this theory:

1- The Wolf Cult acts as witnesses to the Wolf's plan/victory, not as fighters or champions so there is a very low chance of "Wolf Twilight" going full murder towards Velvet.

2. All-In is basically top-secret expedition that no one knows about so how would Twilight even know how to get there or that Velvet is there?

It would make more sense if you said Twilight would try to kill Velvet before All-In, making her the final boss feels very cheap when we have Daybreaker.
 
nah, it's not THAT urgent.

even in the very worst case she can't get more than 1 level of Lantern per turn, so we're safe for another couple turns. We have plenty of time to study the moth 5 book (or find a different one) and to prepare the minion to "sacrifice".
Leaving things for the last minute is never a good idea, so I would argue it is that urgent actually. I still want to scry the highest possible level Moth artifact we can find that would hide our Lores for that exact reason.

Luna with the Lantern 4 artifact and a Lantern 3 reagent would be rolling a +100 to RotT's Lantern roll, just saying.
 
No I dont. Which is why I was confused why you singled out the question of Luna's disappearance as the thing that would cause issues, and not... pretty much everything else?
Well, i suppose that i could have phrased it better.
The pattern with Twilight has always been try to be nice and its the wrong option, every single time.
I wouldn't say that, it's just that we chose wrong wording or just were plain unlucky, more of the latter i would say.
 
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I get Velvet can't really do anything for Pony Twilight. I also get there are some moral problems with telling human Twilight and just leaving. Honestly I think bringing human Twilight could be interesting to read though I think people are underestimating the potential time sink with everything going on. We've got so much going on the next few turns.

I keep coming back to how scummy the situation feels. It's like you hit your dog with a car, it's badly injured, but still alive. So you break into an animal shelter and trade it out for one that looks just like it. Maybe the shelter can help it, maybe not, either way you've got a new dog. I know that's not completely analogous, but it's what it feels like to me.
 
It does seem pretty analogous to me.

Basically, somepony else might eventually help pony Twilight or they might nor but Velvet will have no involvement either way. There is no way that Pony Twilight can be of any benefit to Velvet and she is a loose piece that somepony else can use. The trade means that we remove a piece others can use and gain one ourselves, at the cost of making a pony miserable and a morally wrong choice. Not making the trade nets us nothing and leaves Twilight to potentially be picked by another player, but we are close enough to endgame that it might only matter in the epilogue and the cost is leaving human Twilight miserable and making a morally correct choice. Because we might hope that pony Twilight might get help in the human world but Velvet has no evidence that she would and reasons to believe that Pony Twilight might take issue with it (namely, the fact that we are kidnapping her again).
 
I would prefer to investigate the dream internet, but if that's not going to win, can the people that voted no exchange to vote for exchange?

We might not be able to help Twilight, but we can help Twilight.
and making a morally correct choice.
And also making a morally wrong choice by abandoning a Twilight again.
 
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I think people are severely underestimating the opponents the final mission will have.

The Glory and full godhood are on the line. You do not, you cannot let anyone claim the full Glory and the power that entails, if you are not fully aligned with the person claiming the Glory. The risk of the full Glory being turned against you even by accident is worse then simple death.

All the Names that are not with Velvet, must oppose Velvet. the remaining Hours, of which we have Confirmed both the Wolf and the Colonel must oppose Velvet.

That is why Biedde cannot be made a friend, he loyal to the Colonel, who by his nature must oppose Velvet claiming the Glory. Same as Twilight will be used by the Wolf to oppose Velvet.
 
I feel like if the idea was that the swamp was unacceptable on moral reasons the twilight options should never have been picked in the first place. As others have said leaving it half cocked like this is certaintly one of the worst options in both action economy and morality. Not to say that the swap isn't more fucked up, but it's just a tinge more I think then waving this carrot then disappearing given that this will most certainly give her an obsession with magic in a world where there is none.

I suppose we could just make it our mission to go into every history we can and ruin that Twilight's life but that seems a bit absurd if comical.

[X] Return home, with Diary, Frangiclave, and something else besides. Or rather, someone. (End the dream, bringing Twilight Sparkle with you, and redistribute your remaining action points.)
 

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