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Dungeon Delver Quest (Original Fantasy... again)

Discussion in 'Questing' started by yrsillar, Nov 19, 2015.

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  1. Arkeus

    Arkeus Crazy cat guy

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    Mmmh. We have 20 Shards in our inventory. There are 4 of us to divide a minimum of 45 shards, so that makes 11 more shards minimum open for the bidding, though obviously I don't want to use up all our shards. Seems like Sirrocco's vote is solid.

    [x] Propose a bidding system, in shards. Whoever bids the most for an item gets to keep it, and pays that many shards into the pool. If no one bids, it's salebait. If there's only one person interested, or it turns out that the winning bid is less than the stores will offer for it, its value gets changed to whatever the stores will pay for it.
    -[x] bid 20 shards for the chunk.
    -[x] bid 5 shards for the cloak.

    This would take us to a minimum of 6 Shards + selling of (ring/sword)/4, and probably more given they'll bid for the ring.
     
  2. Guile

    Guile Clothes That Kill Virgins

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    We may need to sort by different criteria, best high, most elegant snort... maybe get a panel of unbiased judges...

    This will take some careful consideration and planning.
     
  3. Arkeus

    Arkeus Crazy cat guy

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    Also, interesting thought: wasn't the door opened by someone else? As the Elites don't respawn, this means either the person died or ran the fuck away.
     
  4. Grosstoad

    Grosstoad Whimsical Paranoid Creeper

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    [] Propose a bidding system, in shards. Whoever bids the most for an item gets to keep it, and pays that many shards into the pool. If no one bids, it's salebait. If there's only one person interested, or it turns out that the winning bid is less than the stores will offer for it, its value gets changed to whatever the stores will pay for it.
    -[] bid 5 shards for the cloak.
    -[] bid 15 shards for the chunk.


    [X] For now let you equip the cloak. You're taking the most damage and this should help.
    [X] Similarly let the mages decide who can make the most use of the ring at the moment.
    [X] Regarding permanent distribution, let Linnea hold the chunk for now and decide what we're doing with everything after we're back near town.
    [X] Divide the shards evenly.

    Because, really, most of necrotic and lightning attacks will be magical in nature, and we simply have minimal magic defense. Oh, and people saying that most here not having any magic, the darned Abomination did cast something that is probably a necrotic spell, and there is the lich on that boss fight, right?

    After that, the lightning defense might help elsewhere.

    EDIT: Updated with Dark's intermediary plan.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2016
  5. Seventeen

    Seventeen 7th in primes, last in doing-things-with-my-life

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    yrsillar: You've noted that the cloak's equipment slot is Accessory (Shoulders). How many equipment slots are there and what are they?
     
  6. yrsillar

    yrsillar Dapper Cthulhu

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    You can wear three accessories, but they can't take up the same slot, with the exception of rings.
     
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  7. Darkened

    Darkened Experienced.

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    yrsillar: Does anyone in the party know the approximate going price of a chunk in shards? Can any of them roughly guestimate the market value of any of the other drops? Are we planning to continue today or turn back after this?


    The bidding system is both very cumbersome if taken forward into the future, and very blatantly not that fair given that we're probably the only one who really wants the cloak, meaning we get it on a pittance while the mages have to pay extra for the ring if they want it, which gives them a lot of reason to object or be pretty unhappy even if they don't think to immediately.

    This is particularly true, since it's quite possible that 3/4 of us (What stats does Linnea use anyway?) can use the one drop, and the person proposing the system for this that would drive up its relative cost can't.

    If we are going with a bidding system, at minimum, I'd suggest all bidding happen after we return to town, not before, which is kinda moot if this is the last part of today, and very much not so if we're doing any other exploring.

    In terms of this specific negotiation, the ring is nifty but not super-great and the mages should be able to decide amongst themselves really, with the winner paying some cost to the group. The cloak should probably come to us, with us reimbursing the group. The big issue is the chunk.

    Here, Lona has a vested interest in sticking with us and having us be stronger. Linnea is someone we like for a permanent party member, so we still get benefits if either gets the chunk. Du is likely a worse fit for a permanent party position, given how niche his skills are and, as such, we lose out if he gets the chunk.

    If we are going with the bidding system, let's consider the following. Low qualityish gear is bought with shards. Shards can be acquired in a shortish period of time. Chunks are, by contrast, finite and limited. If we're bidding, we should be bidding everything on the chunk besides whatever we put toward the cloak, and we should expect everyone else to do the same. Bids should also be divisible by 3 to avoid dickishness.

    Tentative, in case I don't think of something better before the end.

    This still runs into the issue that chunks are, as finite resources, likely simply unbuyable and, if buyable, are probably incredibly expensive, more than any member of the group could afford to pay the rest under this system.

    [X] Propose a bidding system, in shards. Whoever bids the most for an item gets to keep it, and pays that many shards into the pool. If no one bids, it's salebait. All bidding should happen once we return to ten. If there's only one person interested, or it turns out that the winning bid is less than the stores will offer for it, its value gets changed to whatever the stores will pay for it.
    -[X] bid 6 shards for the cloak.
    -[X] bid every other shard you have on the cloak.


    Editing for later post.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2016
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  8. yrsillar

    yrsillar Dapper Cthulhu

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    Nah, you're gonna keep going. Nobody is out of juice. There aren't enough chunks around yet to determine market value though.
     
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  9. Darkened

    Darkened Experienced.

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    Wonderful!

    Okay, this simplifies things. Any bidding or buying or the like should happen at the end, not in the middle. A: People will have more shards, and B: if we have more chunks, it gets much easier to divide them without fighting each other or worrying about backstabbing. Members of the group may be pretty irate if they can't get the chunk, and it's not like anyone's going to be using it until they're in town anyway.

    [X] For now let you equip the cloak. You're taking the most damage and this should help.
    [X] Similarly let the mages decide who can make the most use of the ring at the moment.
    [X] Regarding permanent distribution, let Linnea hold the chunk for now and decide what we're doing with everything after we're back near town.
    [X] Divide the shards evenly.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2016
  10. Seventeen

    Seventeen 7th in primes, last in doing-things-with-my-life

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    [X] For now let you equip the cloak. You're taking the most damage and this should help.
    [X] Similarly let the mages decide who can make the most use of the ring at the moment.
    [X] Regarding permanent distribution, let Linnea hold the chunk for now and decide what we're doing with everything after we're back near town.
    [X] Divide the shards evenly.
     
  11. Arkeus

    Arkeus Crazy cat guy

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    [X] For now let you equip the cloak. You're taking the most damage and this should help.
    [X] Similarly let the mages decide who can make the most use of the ring at the moment.
    [X] Regarding permanent distribution, let Linnea hold the chunk for now and decide what we're doing with everything after we're back near town.
    [X] Divide the shards evenly.
     
  12. Grosstoad

    Grosstoad Whimsical Paranoid Creeper

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    Good idea, Dark, switching over to that.
     
  13. Arkatekt

    Arkatekt Harbinger of Shitluck

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    [X] For now let you equip the cloak. You're taking the most damage and this should help.
    [X] Similarly let the mages decide who can make the most use of the ring at the moment.
    [X] Regarding permanent distribution, let Linnea hold the chunk for now and decide what we're doing with everything after we're back near town.
    [X] Divide the shards evenly.
     
  14. mrttao

    mrttao Connoisseur.

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    I think some light resistance makes sense, what doesn't make sense is the scale of it.
    Yes, if you outright freeze them they shatter and bits fall off like anything living. But if you merely chill them then they do not suffer frostbite, they do not shiver, they do not go numb. Basically they should get only a slight resistance against it.
    For some reason a lot of game makers take this slight resistance and turn it into full blown immunity.

    I mean, humans are a lot more resistant against fire than a tree is, because we have more water in us. that doesn't make us outright immune to fire. A zombie immune to cold is like a human immune to fire.

    they don't respawn? since when?
     
  15. Grosstoad

    Grosstoad Whimsical Paranoid Creeper

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    Yrs clarified it last update.
     
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  16. Koden

    Koden Versed in the lewd.

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    [X] For now let you equip the cloak. You're taking the most damage and this should help.
    [X] Similarly let the mages decide who can make the most use of the ring at the moment.
    [X] Regarding permanent distribution, let Linnea hold the chunk for now and decide what we're doing with everything after we're back near town.
    [X] Divide the shards evenly.
     
  17. LeoAbogos

    LeoAbogos Versed in the lewd.

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    [X] Wrassle for it

    But no, deferring judgement probably makes most sense. I like my joke vote too much to not vote it though.
     
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  18. Sirrocco

    Sirrocco Tiny but ambitious squid

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    A few answers for this.
    - Again, if only one person wants something, then they get it at the sell-to-merchants rate. It's true that they get lucky to a degree, but if they hadn't been in the party, it would have been sold to the merchants anyway, so their luck doesn't diminish things for anyone else. If someone thinks they can get a better deal by selling to an individual (Ansom might want the sword, for example) they can bid on it and try their theories.
    - Presumably these things can also be bought, or at least it will eventually become the case that they can be bought. Thus, long-term, people won't bid more than the probable buy price for similar items. Short-term, if two different mages really think that the accessory is worth that much, then whoever walks away with it is't getting cheated.
    - We could do "bidding after return to town" and it might make sense, as we could then compare with shop prices. Only reason I hadn't wanted to do that is the additional vote complexity, which seems like it would quickly get to be a hassle. Also, in the case of something like the chunk, there's the temptation for whoever's carrying it to just use the thing.
    - Chunks are worth a lot, but at this point in the economy (when everyone still has a lot of useful skills that they haven't shard-maxxed) they're not astronomical. I bid 20 for it because I honestly think that's about what it's worth to us right now - the cost of getting a skill from locked to C. If we get it at 20, great. If someone else bids more, that's cool too. 20 is affordable to anyone in the party with just the shards we've picked up today. If you disagree with me on this, we could easily bid up to 30 on it with available shard quantities. (Given that we're bidding into the pool, we get a few of those shards back). If you think it's worth more than 30, then I'm going to have to disagree with you, at least for the moment. I do expect that to change eventually, but shards are still pretty valuable for right now.
     
  19. Arkeus

    Arkeus Crazy cat guy

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    It actually does dimnish things for other people: In the current case, it means that bidding things now will have Yuuka have an inherent advantage toward getting the chunk as the others would have to present a lot of ressources for their other bidding.
    If by 'short term' you mean 'until the evening when they realise an item is worth 5 shards and another 50'.
    No temptation, it can't be used until we get back to town. The 'going back to town' first is mostly because, even if we use a bidding (which might be a bad idea), there will just be one of those for the whole of the day's gains. There will also not be temptations to kill other people in the party to get the chunk.

    Aahahaha. Chunks, right now, are a flatly limited ressource: boss/elites don't respawn. By default they are worth at least 50 shards, and my guess is they might quickly get to 100-200 Shards before shards begin to lose value.
     
  20. Sirrocco

    Sirrocco Tiny but ambitious squid

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    No. It means that you aren't going to see the same person getting both the ring and the chunk, which is fair. We'd do them sequentially one way or the other. It's not like the two who don't get the ring are going to be spending any shards on not getting the ring.

    For "short term", I mean "until prices stabilize a bit, and people start getting close to their soft shardmaxxes" Right now, there's no such thing as an objective value on these. All there is is what people will pay for it. Everything above Q2 is basically a rare item. The stores will buy and sell them, but you can't just walk into a shop and expect to see one even if you do have the shards. At the same time, it's worked into the bidding system as originally described that if it turns out that the shop would have paid more for something, we shuffle shard costs around to make that right.

    Not sure where you came up with the idea that people would be tempted to off one another. I don't think anyone here is that level of crazy. Your point on shard not being usable before we get back to town is reasonable.

    You are incorrect. Consider - spending shards today gets a significant boost in power, today. That in turn makes you more capable of pushing further int he dungeon and defeating stronger monsters tomorrow - possibly putting you in a position to earn more chunks. Yes, the chunk has better long-term value, and if we were in anything resembling a mature economy, the higher-level characters would crank shards up to at least the 100-200 level as you describe, but if that were the case, the obvious thing to do with a chunk for someone at our level would be to cash it in for the shards, crank your skills, and be able to grind more efficiently the next day. Taking one skill from C to B is *not* worth as much as cranking 5 skills from locked to C.
     
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  21. Minion #Q

    Minion #Q Well worn.

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    I realise this wasn't an actual vote but it is now cause I"m stealing it,

    [X] Greatsword: I can't use it, or get any skill for it, and I don't think anyone else can either. Just sell for shards later?
    [X] Ring: Ya'll fight it out.
    [X] Cloak: It might be useful for the death knight fight, and other minor stuff. I wouldn't mind it, but it's not a huge deal if someone else wants it.
    [X] Chunk: Arm-wrestle ya for it. :)Ah, but seriously, I'm willing to pay in shards for it. Go to whoever's willing to pay the most shards? (Up to 20)

    our character really doesn't seem to be for a complex bidding system if we do that someone else should probably bring it up.

    edit-added later changes
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2016
  22. Kinematics

    Kinematics Well worn.

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    It was half-joke, but... yeah. Gonna vote for what Yuuka would do, rather than a guild accountant. Making some extra tweaks to the last line, though.

    [X] Greatsword: I can't use it, or get any skill for it, and I don't think anyone else can either. Just sell for shards later?
    [X] Ring: Ya'll fight it out.
    [X] Cloak: It might be useful for the death knight fight, and other minor stuff. I wouldn't mind it, but it's not a huge deal if someone else wants it.
    [X] Chunk: Arm-wrestle ya for it. :) Ah, but seriously, I'm willing to pay in shards for it. Go to whoever's willing to pay the most shards? (Up to 21)
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2016
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  23. Nanimani

    Nanimani Listening to music

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    [X] Greatsword: I can't use it, or get any skill for it, and I don't think anyone else can either. Just sell for shards later?
    [X] Ring: Ya'll fight it out.
    [X] Cloak: It might be useful for the death knight fight, and other minor stuff. I wouldn't mind it, but it's not a huge deal if someone else wants it.
    [X] Chunk: Arm-wrestle ya for it. :) Ah, but seriously, I'm willing to pay in shards for it. Go to whoever's willing to pay the most shards? (Up to 20)
     
  24. Arkeus

    Arkeus Crazy cat guy

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    You are incorrect- Chunks are finite in the first floor, and are dependant on finding Boss/Elites, and of having a team capable of taking one down.

    This means that, when looking for a chunk, right now, a group of 3 (probably the minimum when it comes to reliably killing bosses) would need a minimum of 3 days for each having one, and that's if they are very lucky as it will get harder and harder to find them. On the other hand, the same group will get 200 or so shards each during the same period of time while trying to get the chunk.

    This is why, right now, when Chunks are at the lowest price possible because of high numbers of weak bosses available as well as rarity of B skills needed, they should at least be worth 50 shards. Also consider this: if we just wanted to farm shards (something a lot of people can do) we can easily get as much as 100 shards in a day. We don't need the strength bonus from more shards just to farm shards. However, the bonus from finding chucks is actually needed if we want to go farther on the tower, as the next 'roadblock', skill wise, is getting the whole team's Job to B, unlocking Legendary (as no one can get to B normally) skills.

    You are not going to get a real, significant difference in power between someone with 100 and 150 shards for the current things we are doing right now. However, we can't actually go much farther safely until our whole group has their Job to B.
     
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  25. Pipeman

    Pipeman Well worn.

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    [X] Greatsword: I can't use it, or get any skill for it, and I don't think anyone else can either. Just sell for shards later?
    [X] Ring: Ya'll fight it out.
    [X] Cloak: It might be useful for the death knight fight, and other minor stuff. I wouldn't mind it, but it's not a huge deal if someone else wants it.
    [X] Chunk: Arm-wrestle ya for it. :) Ah, but seriously, I'm willing to pay in shards for it. Go to whoever's willing to pay the most shards? (Up to 20)

    No need to take this stuff too seriously or make that huge a deal out of it.
    Being easy-going is quite important to the character image for me.
     
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  26. Sirrocco

    Sirrocco Tiny but ambitious squid

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    Your math is... odd.

    1: Nobody's making 200 shards a day on the chunk hunt - at least, not yet. We're maybe halfway through the day right now. We've made 18 shards and 2 bonemeal, plus our share of 45 shards and sale of the loot. Bonemeal convert to potions for a bit less than a shard each. The sword isn't gong to sell for more than 15. The other stuff is going to be kept and used, by somebody, and thus doesn't actually add to the shardpile. Thus, 35 shards per person for the first half of this day. That's a lot more in line with what we've seen in previous days, too. Yeah, if we were pulling in 200 per day, then chunks *would* be worth more, comparatively. Among other things, we'd be shardmaxing our skills a lot faster.
    2: There's nothing saying that we can't make more than one chunk per day. Depending on how the daily powers for each of our companions are looking, we might be able to handle a second chunk-level foe today, just in this party. Invulnerable is pretty shiny, and we have used that, but we still have a pretty solid set of dailies to play with - and after we've thrown a few more shards at our skills, we'll be that much more ready to handle more than one in a day. We just have to be willing to open scary doors on the spot rather than waiting a day to do it. It's true, if you want to play conservatively, then chunks get a lot rarer, and by extension more precious.
    3: It's true - getting Job to B and unlocking that block of skills *is* a large boost to your ability to turn shards into power (assuming that the skills aren't all chunk-unlock). On the other hand, we're not anything close to the point where we're going to be blocked by that. We haven't shard-maxxed Adamant Body, we haven't even opened Mountain's Fury or Blaze, and presumably those grouped with us are about the same. Still, we blew through that encounter pretty easily. We could face another like it again. We also (both individually and as a group) have a fair amount of upgrading from gear left to go through. I expect that even just on this floor we could up our weapon and armor to Quality 3 and fill our accessories and be a fair bit beefier. Yes, eventually lacking chunks might get us to the point where it would be difficult to continue, but we have a lot of chunk-dropping fights available to us between here and there.

    So... if we were to pay 50 right now, it wouldn't be the difference between 100 and 150. It would be maybe the difference between 30 and 80 - which for us is taking Mountain's Fury and Blaze from locked to shardmax, and taking unarmed from locked to D (having spent 25 on shardmaxxing Adamant Skin and Warrior's Challenge, and spending 5 on food, booze, and sleeping quarters). I don't even know what those do, and I can already tell you that that's a serious increase to our ability to kill chunk-bearing things later.

    Also worth noting that slabs are out there. Chunks aren't even the rarest resource there is.

    Still, the fact is that we can keep going, and *could* conceivably take out anther chunk room before we get out of here for the day actually underlines the issues with immediate distribution. It's also the case that there's at least some truth to your arguments. 20 is too low. I'm still not convinced it's as high as 50 just yet, but it's worth at least 30 - and I'd encourage anyone who's listing a value for the chunk to set it at at least that much. Regardless, Vote change.

    [X] For now let you equip the cloak. You're taking the most damage and this should help.
    [X] Similarly let the mages decide who can make the most use of the ring at the moment.
    [X] Regarding permanent distribution, let Linnea hold the chunk for now and decide what we're doing with everything after we're back near town.
    -[X] Suggest a sort of buy-from-the-pot system. Check out the prices from the merchants for each item. If no one wants it for that much, sell it for the shards. If only one person does, they can buy it from the group for that much. If more than one person does, whoever's willing to offer the most shards for it gets it. Then everyone splits the pot.
    [X] For now, divide the shards evenly.
     
  27. mrttao

    mrttao Connoisseur.

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    I know you are trying to be funny but it is seriously a dick move and remember that some (like du) already had problems with unfair distributions in parties before.
    Supporting fair distribution to all is seriously something we need to do if we want to keep working with people
     
  28. Sirrocco

    Sirrocco Tiny but ambitious squid

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    How is it a dick move to say "Obviously, I don't want this, and all three of you do. I'll let you three decide between you who gets it, and how much it's worth."? That's more or less what *I'd* gotten from that bit.
     
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  29. mrttao

    mrttao Connoisseur.

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    1. This is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT STATEMENT. Most groups LITERALLY fight it out. This is why there is such a rampant problem with unfair distributions. We know for a fact this has been a problem for at least one person in our party. There is absolutely no reason for them to take it as what you are now saying which is a completely different statement.
    Your vote is akin to saying "I am going to go into a bank and say "this is a robbery" but its ok because they know i am joking and just mean a perfectly legal withdrawal".

    2. Even though we do not want or need it we still partially own it and as such should receive our fair share from whomever gets it, this matters to us for the distribution of the other items.
     
  30. Kinematics

    Kinematics Well worn.

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    Your math is off. He asserted 200 shards each over the three days it might take to get a chunk, so 70 per day, which is in line with our current gain of 35 shards in half a day.

    I wasn't sure what to put there, but it's all of our current inventory of shards (not counting the current pool), so erred on the conservative side. I might bump it up, but am still fuzzy on where to set the cap.

    We've been joking about stuff ever since the day started. Yuuka is not a dead-serious type of individual. Plus, there's such thing as context. The vote implies the context, and Yrs can write it in appropriately; we're not writing the scene ourselves.

    Also, Linnea went through this yesterday, with the idea of paying in shards for the privilege of getting the talisman. She should have no trouble working through the details with the other two.

    The reason my original version didn't bother trying to get anything from the ring decision is because of the cloak. If Yuuka gets the cloak, it would be easier to consider that 'fair' by not having her participate in any shard exchange over the ring, particularly if the other party members similarly assess the value of the cloak as relatively low due to its niche nature.
     
    Priapus and Nanimani like this.
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