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General D&D/Pathfinder Thread.

Discussion in 'General' started by The Shadowmind, Mar 19, 2015.

  1. The Shadowmind

    The Shadowmind Well worn.

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    General thread for discussing Dungeons and Dragons regardless of edition and it's offshoot, Pathfinder.
     
  2. powerofvoid

    powerofvoid Versed in the lewd.

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    My argument with Bailey Matutine:
    Fieldset
    Note that Pathfinder, which Rosaline Meda-Vici is talking about specifically says:
    That said, I am going to reply as though this were talking about SRD-augmented-by-splatbooks D&D 3.5, because that is what I was talking about.

    There are two levels of argument here:
    1. "A Wizard can only copy spells that are actually on the Sor/Wiz list into her spellbook"
    2. "Even if she could do that, she couldn't actually cast it, because she doesn't have divine spell slots."

    For #1: "A Wizard can only copy spells that are actually on the Sor/Wiz list into her spellbook"
    Assumption: the following text actually allows the Archivist to learn spells:
    Conclusion: the following rules text can be used on scrolls containing divine spells:
    Assumption: the Wizard can use the rules section titled "Adding Spells to a Wizard’s Spellbook"
    Conclusion: the Wizard can transcribe scrolls containing divine spells to her spellbook.
    Fact: that rules section makes no mention of divine spells.
    Assumption: Wizards can learn and cast spells from the Sor/Wiz list
    Conclusion: that rules section is not limited to scrolls containing divine spells, and can in fact apply to all spells.

    That leaves #2: "Even if she could do that, she couldn't actually cast it, because she doesn't have divine spell slots."

    Well, guess what? A wizard doesn't have arcane spell slots either! She just has "spell slots".

    Assumption: the following text actually lets the Frost Mage cast Summon Ice Beast:
    Fact: The Frost Mage is an arcane spellcasting class. "Spells: Able to cast 1st-level arcane spells."
    Fact: The conjure ice beast # spells are Cleric/Druid spells.
    Fact: The prerequisite feat "Frozen Magic" just adjusts caster level, not any sort of arcane/divine division
    Conclusion: Knowing a spell allows you to prepare/cast it using your spell slots.

    Now, having thought about it, I don't actually know of a reason why you couldn't argue that a Wizard would actually cast those spells as divine spells, and thus you couldn't actually get them through the CYOA from that. I was making the DM-based assumption that "no DM would let you ignore arcane spell failure by learning spells through divine scrolls, because that sounds OP and Wizards were already too good before we learned they could cast every spell that can fit on a scroll."
    Fieldset
    Here is the part of the Archivist class entry that describes the Archivist spellcasting
    Here is the relevant fucking section:
    The Archivist can add non-Cleric spells to his spellbookprayerbook, but he still has to follow the usual procedures. (i.e., the same ones Wizards use to do the same thing)

    He is also limited to spells found on scrolls that contain divine spells. (However, if a scroll somehow contains both divine and arcane spells, he can learn all the spells on that scroll)

    EDIT 2: Whoops, I forgot a post in between:
    Fieldset
    How does that invalidate my argument?
    • "The archivist can learn and thus prepare nonclerical divine spells in this fashion": being able to use the Wizard's trick allows the Archivist to cast non-Cleric divine spells
    • "the two free spells he gains for advancing in class level must be selected from the cleric spell list.": the spells the Archivist doesn't use the Wizard's trick to learn must still be Cleric spells.

    EDIT 1: Another post:
    Fieldset
    So, your argument is that D&D 3.5 contains zero redundant sentences?
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2015
  3. tEN

    tEN Mischief Maker

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    Not only has Wizards officially spoken on this matter, they didn't even think you would be confused enough to believe you could copy divine magic in this way.
     
  4. The Shadowmind

    The Shadowmind Well worn.

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    I like these 2 "monk" builds
    Rubik's

    shaikujin's
    Because the formating update screw up tables, I posted the an unedited verison of the build in the spoiler.
    It is long, so care when clikcing.
     
    Dreadis likes this.
  5. powerofvoid

    powerofvoid Versed in the lewd.

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    Oh, hey, something I actually hadn't seen before.

    It's an FAQ, though, so I'm not sure that that trumps this:
    I also discovered that the "Rules Compendium" adds the following line:
    However, in order for this to actually trump the other rules, it would have to be one of the following:
    • A primary source
    • Errata (which it apparently isn't)

    This is, however, getting into the point where I think it can actually be said to be "ambiguous", and maybe even to the point where your position is the more sensible one. (The errata and FAQ are a ginormous clusterfuck)

    My conclusions are:
    1. Excluding the FAQ and Compendium, my position is unambiguously correct unless one or more of those class features (Wizard spellcasting, Archivist spellcasting, Frost Mage) don't actually work
    2. If you put the FAQ above book text, your position is unambiguously correct.
    3. If you use the Rules compendium, your position is unambiguously correct.
    4. Whether the FAQ or Compendium do trump the other rules is not unambiguous.
    5. In an actual game of D&D, it is extremely unlikely that your Wizard will actually be allowed to use that trick to learn spells, regardless of whether the rules actually allow it.
    6. By the same token, in actual games of D&D the Archivist is probably not going to be able to use the "scroll with multiple spells on it" to learn Arcane spells
    7. It probably doesn't affect the CYOA, because (some) Dragons and Nagas can unambiguously cast Cleric spells as Arcane, so I'm not sure which spells you would want to cast as Arcane but be unable to.
     
  6. UrsaTempest

    UrsaTempest Yuri Fanatic, Archivist

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    Oooor, it will greatly gives GM headache, hence most tables homebrewed to discount your particular interpretation, and thus accepted as norm.

    Don't ask me, though. I don't play DnD, or Pathfinder.
     
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  7. Dreadis

    Dreadis No idea whats going on

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    Players handbook, printed. July 2003.

    Wizards changed their minds. You are Wrong
     
  8. tehelgee

    tehelgee The stern gaze of justice. Administrator

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    It's errata, from an official source.

    Unless specifically noted in the rules somewhere, like the archivist gets with non-clerical divine spells, a wizard cannot copy non-wizard spells into his spellbook.

    The end.
     
    ShadowStepper1300, a2znut and Dreadis like this.
  9. powerofvoid

    powerofvoid Versed in the lewd.

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    Fieldset
    You clearly didn't actually read my list of conclusions.

    Fieldset
    The Errata is from later than the PHB.

    But... the errata is only from 2006, so it seems like you might have a point.

    Then again, Heroes of Horror is from 2005, so it might actually make the Archivist's class feature not work. :p

    Fieldset
    No, it's an FAQ, not errata.
    Since it is from 2008, and thus post-dates the Rules Compendium, it likely refers to the rule in the Rules Compendium

    An important takeaway from this is that it is trivially possible for a fallacious argument to be attached to a correct conclusion.

    EDIT: Or a logically sound argument to be attached to a false conclusion, if some of its premises are false.
     
  10. Dreadis

    Dreadis No idea whats going on

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    Concession Accepted.
     
  11. tehelgee

    tehelgee The stern gaze of justice. Administrator

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    Quit being a rules lawyer about it. It's shit like this that helps to give people a bad impression of 3.PF.
     
    Prince Charon likes this.
  12. The Shadowmind

    The Shadowmind Well worn.

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    So who would win?
    Wildshape Ranger 5/Master of Many Forms 10/Warshaper 5 or a E5 Lunar? 3.5 and 2.5 for the relevant editions.
     
  13. powerofvoid

    powerofvoid Versed in the lewd.

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    The idea that understanding the rules is bad is a big part of why most RPGs have terrible rules.

    Sometimes you have to sit down and let the nurse stab your arm with a needle in order to help end smallpox.
     
  14. tehelgee

    tehelgee The stern gaze of justice. Administrator

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    The Lunar.
     
  15. The Shadowmind

    The Shadowmind Well worn.

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    Which advantages do you think allow the Lunar to win?
     
  16. tehelgee

    tehelgee The stern gaze of justice. Administrator

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    Being a Lunar. Seriously, a 20th level martial isn't ever gonna stand up to a E5 Celestial Exalt.
     
  17. powerofvoid

    powerofvoid Versed in the lewd.

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    The Shadowmind didn't specify an XP total. This was probably an oversight, but it means the answer is almost certainly, "insufficient data" (I think it's possible to build an E5 Lunar with no relevant charms)

    Anyway, a level 20 (3.5) D&D character is a starting character plus 9 weeks 4 days of full-time adventuring, so it's probably best to compare the characters like that.
     
  18. The Shadowmind

    The Shadowmind Well worn.

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    Assume an exp for the Lunar, based on a reasonable amount that would be earned in the time that powerofvoid stated.
     
  19. powerofvoid

    powerofvoid Versed in the lewd.

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    Exalted doesn't have a good XP-to-time mapping, other than "long-term idling", which is "zero XP for time periods less than a season"

    XP gain is based on metagame measures:
    • 4 XP per 4-5 hour gameplay session (out-of-game time)
    • 1 XP for coming up with something cool
    • 1 XP per session if there was a successful 3-die stung
    • 5 XP for significant story goals
    • Variable amounts of XP for in-game time, generally on the order of 10 XP per fifteen month year. (a month is always exactly 4x 7-day weeks in Exalted)
    I would have to check the training times on Lunars, but that might be a good reference.

    EDIT: Four more concerns:
    1. How do you convert the numbers from Exalted to numbers for D&D?
    2. What are the parameters of battle?
    3. Should the builds know they're going into this fight?
    4. What are the limitations on allocating the D&D character's WBL?
     
  20. tehelgee

    tehelgee The stern gaze of justice. Administrator

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    Well, that's not gonna line up right. Exalted get XP at different rates depending on what they are, PCs or NPCs. Plus, training times are a thing too. So, 10 weeks, for one of the Exalted, might get them to E3, if they had the XP to train that long non-stop.

    Edit: That's 3e, btw.
     
  21. powerofvoid

    powerofvoid Versed in the lewd.

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    Two problems with using Exalted 3e:
    • I don't have the Exalted 3e rules to look into
    • The question was about Exalted 2.5
     
  22. tehelgee

    tehelgee The stern gaze of justice. Administrator

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    Hmm, I misread the original post and thought he meant 2e and 3e for Exalted.

    Anyway, with a 2e Lunar, it gets even worse. They're higher in power than in 3e.
     
  23. powerofvoid

    powerofvoid Versed in the lewd.

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    What about an e5 Lunar who has only the bare minimum starting number of charms, and they are all the worst possible charms for the scenario?
     
  24. tehelgee

    tehelgee The stern gaze of justice. Administrator

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    Never happen.

    The book has guidelines on how XP gets spent. 4:3:2:1 for Charms:Abilities:Attributes:Essence, respectively. For an Exalt to be E5, they have to have spent a minimum of 288 + 213 + 144 + 72 XP. And that's the absolute minimum, without ever raising Willpower beyond what they start with. Assuming they start with 5 WP and increase it to 10(which is normal for an E5 Exalt), thats 280:210:140:70 additional XP.
     
  25. powerofvoid

    powerofvoid Versed in the lewd.

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    Is that 2e?
     
  26. The Shadowmind

    The Shadowmind Well worn.

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    1. We will use training time then. The limiting factor for the Exalted quests I've read seems to also be training times, while EXP was plentiful. So 67 days of training time.
    Use lift capacity for strength of force. Lava bath immersion, before immunities for durability. And, other "How well does X handle this task?" to see how powerful they are at the task.

    2. We can try different starting areas. Only factor is fight continues until one of them is permanently dead.
    Assume the Wildshaper is built on 36-point buy, instead of rolled stats.​
    3. Neither know of the other when the fight starts.

    4. The Wildshaper starts with Standard WBL for a 20th level character spent. No WBL tricks for infinite money allowed.
     
  27. tehelgee

    tehelgee The stern gaze of justice. Administrator

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    Yes. In 3E, Essence cannot be increased manually, it increases as XP is spent on other things. E5 requires 300 XP to be spent(not accumulated). But, we don't know what the XP costs are for Lunars in E3, just Solars, so.
     
  28. powerofvoid

    powerofvoid Versed in the lewd.

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    Okay, I found the section. It only specifically applies to "Elder Exalts", but it seems like a good start.

    Character Creation: Increasing Essence on a Lunar costs 10 points, and starting with E2 seems bad, so E3 to start.

    Advancing to E4 costs 27 XP, and to E5 costs 36 XP, so that's 63 XP per "1". That's 108 XP spent on charms at E3, and 144 XP spent on charms at E4

    Charms cost 10/12 XP, so that's +9-10 charms at E3 and +12-15 charms at E4, and Chargen is 8 charms/knacks, with likely +1 from BP, so, a total of 17-19 E3 charms and 12-15 E4 charms

    We'll assume the maximum number, and just call that extra XP beyond, and say 19 E3-or-less charms, and 15 E4-or-less charms.

    3 * 63 = 189xp on abilities and specialties; 2x63 = 126xp on attributes, which is +31-42 dot^2 is 42 dot^2 in caste/favored attributes

    If we just naively try to maximize the physical attributes, we go STR 1 DEX 5 CON 5 at chargen, then spend 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 dot^2 to bring STR up to 5, and still have 32 dot^2 left over to futz with other things. If we allocate 5/1/1 to social, and 5/3/1 to mental, or vice-versa, it doesn't really matter, we see that we can max all but one attribute.

    I have never actually fucking played a Lunar, so I don't actualy know where to go from here.
     
  29. evildice

    evildice (emotionally stable clown posse)

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    Been a whole lot easier since the witch left town
    It's been a whole lot happier without her horns around
    Nobody upstairs gonna chant and scream
    Nobody at midnight gonna break into my dream

    She hold the crossbow while you roll Perform
    She want a cohort made of Bahamut and Aragorn
    Been a whole lot easier since the witch is gone
    Little Miss, Little Miss, Little Miss Cambion

    Little Miss, Little Miss, Little Miss Cambion
    Ain't nobody gonna bow no more when you bind demons
    Little Miss, Little Miss, Little Miss Cambion
    What'cha gonna do to get into another one of these inspirin' Bard songs?


    Other peoples thoughts they ain't your Twitter feed
    Would it be so bad to simply not mind-read
    You cook so well, all eye of newt
    You do you brain surgery too, mama with a high hard boot

    Little Miss, Little Miss, Little Miss Cambion
    Ain't nobody gonna bow no more when you bind demons
    Little Miss, Little Miss, Little Miss Cambion
    What'cha gonna do to get into another one of these inspirin' Bard songs?


    I hope that rumor, gonna make you rage
    I hope you hear this song and it imposes Disadvantage
    I take that back, I hope your still alive
    And if I had a stronghold I might give you half the tithe

    Little Miss, Little Miss, Little Miss Cambion
    Ain't nobody gonna bow no more when you bind demons
    Little Miss, Little Miss, Little Miss Cambion
    What'cha gonna do to get into another one of these inspirin' Bard songs?
     
  30. Nerx

    Nerx HOORNGH!

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    Anyone tried pathfinder 2e yet?