Oramus Charmset Project (DEAD)

Hi everyone! I don't think I know the other two participants, so nice to meet you!

Alright, so I think it's a good idea to start wide and drag the net in close after, so we can sort the good from the bad.
First the excellency:
-We need to just list out varying conceptions of who Oramus is or could be seen as, highlighting various aspects we consider important. To start with, the canonical information on Oramus:

There's some good intellectual meat here, and most interpretations of Oramus are derived from what's wriiten here. The obvious paradigms here include: Oramus as the Primordial closest to Chaos and all its' associations, Oramus as a creative artist, Oramus as a philosophical mystery that is beyond anyone's comprehension(as opposed to being simply mysterious), Oramus as the boundary between (real and not real) or (understood and not understood). Another paradigm that is often largely unexplored is that of the contrast between him and The Ebon Dragon. These paradigms aren't all separate things, I'm just treating them in a reductionist manner for simpler analysis.
It is commonly accepted[1] that the source of Oramus' creativity is his exposure to 'The Without' which lies on the other side of the border which is himself, and which is also a source of madness, impossibility and so on. There is room for interpretation as to whether he is simply the Gateway to the Without, or whether he IS in some way the Without.

-[1]: Various canonical texts mention other Yozi listening to the Without for inspiration, like Elloge poking her head through Oramus' wings for inspiration, or the Pyrian Flame being inspired to create Space Monster Scream from listening to it.

This is what Oramus' power makes things look like, which is only loosely connected to what we're doing here, but it's still worth keeping in mind.

Just a short piece of canon narrative. Mainly just gives a look at the strange existence of Oramus, though the final line 'The other titans looked upon him and thought that he
looked always to be the thing which he was not.' is an interesting one.

Edit: Found one last source on Oramus:

Mainly just describes Oramus from an outside PoV.




I've got to get up early in the morning, so I'll let you guys chew on this for now. Once we've got a big list of traits and themes, we can narrow them down to what precisely we want to convey about him and begin working on the excellency. Whilst we're at it, it probably wouldn't hurt to keep an eye out for hints as to how Oramus treats the world and how the world treats Oramus.

 

One thing that stands out is that he is a mad artist, which would probably be an important part of his Excelency.
Edit: his Excellency would probably be invalid for escaping bindings.

His intrinsic tie to seven may show as a modification of the inevitability technique? Rather than lowering the target number it makes sevens better somehow?

His "how he sees the world" tree would probably be related to madness.

 

I'd like to throw in my two cents: A usable Oramus charmset already exists, as many of us know. So when constructing this one, I'd recommend going in a drastically different route, otherwise it'll be so similar that you should just make these expansion charms to that set.

The existing set is a fairly benign interpretation of Oramus: It provides a basis for the multiple shapes of Oramus, dips a bit into casually causing madness, offers one or two charms on disregarding physical space and spends quite a bit on being a Wyld-manipulating artist.

I'd recommend going the opposite direction. Oramus, mystical and strange as he is, was beaten down by the Exalted. He is as bitter and twisted as the rest of the Yozis and that should show in his charmset. He ought to harm the world in a casual, pervasive way that his brothers don't, since he is a creature of the unreal and reality can't comprehend him. His art should be psychotic and dangerous, not a thing for eccentric collectors in ivory towers, but for raving lunatics to copy in a blood-scrawled ideogram on their cell wall before committing suicide. A visit by an Oramus-empowered Infernal ought to trigger a wide-range quarantine as peasants are black-bagged and interrogated behind a one-way mirror, by messenger, for the agent's protection against contamination.

The madness Oramus brings shouldn't be burdened genius or an otherwise benign handicap. Rather, it should trap and hurt the people upon whom it has been inflicted, such as in Red Dragon or The Shining. As Oramus has been imprisoned within himself, so shall he imprison others. The only people who benefit from Oramus' blessings are those working directly towards his goals, which should be unreasonable, indecipherable and nonsensical to all but him.

 

This is cool. I'll chip in, I suppose, though unsure of how much I can really offer.

I rather like Peanuckle 's take on it. Kinda like Chaos (WH40k) in a sense.

How does Oramus see the World? He really doesn't, rather, He sees beyond it, and by knowing what the World isn't, He knows the World. So seeing the immaterial(Spirit sight and such); things that aren't there, like scrying; intuition and prediction charms; and the imposition of unreal things upon the real and vice versa, illusions and shaping?

How does the World see Oramus? As a Mad being, one that is impossibly real. Seeing Him is to glimpse the what is impossible. So inflicting derangement and mutations; self-shaping/mutations; and shaping defense?

Behind the Excellency could be the crafting (particularly Wyld/gossamer(?) crafting and genesis) type, and luck charms (for instance, roll a d10, that number is also or replaces a normal number as a success). Maybe a 'acheive' this result to actually get this totally opposite result. Like 'it's impossible to create a campfire with a pot of water' but the water catches on regular fire anyways with the water as fuel instead of wood.

Spoiler: Something like in this video?

Since Oramus is both real and unreal, possible and impossible, maybe His imperfection is that parts of himself/panoply/things he has inflicted or created cannot be stopped by his PDs? ie. The Solar convinces the illusory person to attack the Infernal and the illusion can strike the Infernal, or an shaped stone can be hurled at the Infernal and strike true, or someone bearing a temporary mutation given by the Infernal.

There's my current thoughts, make of them what you will.

 

Alright, what should his two root charms be? We need to define his manifestation charms and his perception charms. Now there are two ways to go about this; the Kimbery and Cecelyne and Metagaos way, in that the Infernal gains a permeant effect that allows them to better survive in a new environment. Of course then there's the Malfeas and Isidoros way, which is to say that the changes themselves in different ways, like I pain is nothing or my ego was a literal weight.

Thankfully the footwork for his perception charm and Excellency have already been done by Earthscorpion:

 

Well, is that what we want for an Excellency?

It might be easier to decide what his Urge (and how it expresses), his Act of Villainy, and Torment are, and then work into his Excellency, and then use the themes we worked into the Excellency to deciding how the expression and perception trees start. Like if we did go with the Urge to Create, we'd have to pair it with 'new or unusual' and 'unusual and unexpected application.' Like maybe an e2 expression could be create an Artifact 4 Spork of Raeg multi-use weapon. And it has to totally be regular spork sized. To be used by another Infernal to gut an e4 god or something. Or to take over 'x' society and rebuild it totally different from what it was and any other society the Infernal knows about. His Act of Villainy is to make maddening art that reveals a hidden secret that also names the Infernal as the one who revealed the secret. Sorta like the Malfean AoV but artsy, about secrets, and driving people mad (with revenge too). And the torment forces the Infernal to be mundane, to not be flamboyant, to have no secrets, to be susceptible to how others view her, to be without that genius spark, to be borrrrreeeedddd.

"This Charm enhances actions to transgress against boundaries, drive others mad, bring new things into existence, explore hidden knowledge, or hide knowledge from others. The Dragon Beyond the World may always enhance actions to bring horror and despair to the creatures of the Wyld, or counter and unmake their works. This excellency cannot be used to calmly and rationally explain the character’s motives or aims to another - Oramus is beyond full comprehension and the best others can manage is half-truths and metaphors."

There's a change I would definitely suggest from ES's. It would help more combat/assassin type play styles. Mmmm, and even in social/mental areas. Would help with lying or misdirecting NPCs/other players from things the Infernal wishes to hide. Could help even in building things that aren't new, like traps, if you had a generous ST. Otherwise, I do like that Excellency.

Start the expression blob as defining self and hiding the definition of self and expand into defining the world/hiding the definition of the world? So a charm that boosts the difficulty of reading the infernal, and increases MDVs? Then branch out into social type charms(could also add a stealth/disguise/presence charm tree by allowing the Infernal to define themselves in certain ways, or how the world defines them, like Hostile Streets Outsider and Easily Overlooked Presence) with appropriate bonuses against wyld mutants and such, the inflicting mutations, and shaping/shaping defense. So sorta split the tree again. Have a low hanging Shintai?

I like starting the perception blob with something like Paths Beyond Witnessing, would be a fairly good start, and would be a 'get your feet wet' into seeing into the beyond, as you see it for a brief moment before taking the step. And/or an pierce illusion effect, maybe first purchase is notice illusions/disguises, second higher essence purchase sees behind the illusion/disguise? Or a self delusion charm. But definitely a 'see the immaterial' charm should be pretty low hanging.

 

I think I like this way best. Scales of the Dragon to rebuke even the infinite possibilities of the Wyld for Orasmus is impossibility manifest and perhaps something like Impossibilities Made Real for for expressing different impossible facets of himself via Shaping.

 

Yeah, I'm just going to go out and say that I think this Charm set isn't all that great, it seems to think that Oramus is simply a bigger and better Raksha, heck it even gives him artifical graces. So I say we ditch it wholesale, perhaps just recycling a few names.

First things first; he's better than the Wyld, he does not play by its rules, so no shaping combat shit in his charmset, instead he throws out the Raksha's source book and hits them with his own. So a permeant charm that grants passive resistance to random effects of Wyld Chaos and Raksha Shaping effects (Raksha don't matter, not to a Titan.) and (essence) Dice for all rolls for survival within the Wyld.

Basically he shits over the Wyld and its inhabitants as a basic Essence 2 effect that only grows with more charms; from this his shaping defense and crafting charms come into power.

 

Except Shaping fits him perfectly? I mean look at Wyld-Shaping Technique:

Things like this where he imposes one of his own impossibilities on Creation or the Wyld is well within his themes. I'll note that the other Yozi make use of Shaping like with Radiant Fury Dissolution, Loom-Snarling Deception, Sand-Slick Trip and many more.

 

I mean he won't use that those damn awful Shaping Combat Rules in Graceful Wicked Masques which requires you to keep track of five different health tracks, of course he'll have shaping effects. Most Yozi do after all, even if I believe that the tag is over used.

Also: I think this charm needs some work, its powerful, but I don't know if I should include another effect; perhaps it should just grant the bonus die, and the Shaping defense should come after as an extra charm or a repurchase.

Beyond Petty Dreams
Cost: —
Mins: Essence 2
Type: Permanent
Keywords: None
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: None
Oramus is the Dragon Beyond the World, he dwelt in the raw impossibilities of the Beyond. Compared to an existing before existence, what dangers to does the Infinite Chaos and its mad children hold for Seven-Winged Beast. he Infernal and her held possessions are immune to all effects originating from the Wyld, be it the random fluctuations of chaos or the Fae seductress attempting to cloud his mind all fail automatically. Also, a being greater than the Wyld could ever hope to be, the Prince add her (essence) to all rolls to forage for safe food, navigate or resist the depredations of the Wyld.

 

I never said he would or that he should?

 

I've lost what you're on about; I was talking about how he interacted with the Wlyd, utter domination, and I mentioned not including Shaping combat fromGraceful Wicked Masques. But I don't get your point.

 

Alright, I'm seeing a lot of motion to push ahead with the charm creation rather than work on nailing down the core basics of who Oramus actually is, so I'm going to assume that it's as good a time as any to push forward some firmer interpretations.

The pre-existing charmset proposes a fairly mishmash interpretation of Oramus that tries to include as many details as possible with a mild bias towards his more benign/useful aspects(though I see that the base version of it that Peanuckle linked really did have more of a focus on the Raksha-esque elements). EarthScorpion's proposed charmset has a much firmer visualisation of Oramus, though it is rather deeply set into the interpretation of him as a Lovecraftian cosmic horror, with all the implications thereof (including inadvertently driving others around you mad). We don't need to avoid these concepts, but there is a reason we started off by examining things from the ground floor. We want something cohesive and that produces a charmset we want to work with.

So anyway, I've listed themes and an initial set of paradigms, but those aren't actually descriptions, anymore than saying 'Adorjan is a wind that kills people' accurately states the entirety of her being. Outwardly, Oramus has the appearance of an often-changing being with certain constancies- mainly always having seven (wings, masts, flames, etc) and being bound on a pervasive level. Those aren't just quirks to be ignored; Malfeas is a great example of how physically being twisted and left permanently in pain has altered many aspects of himself and his charms. Oramus isn't in pain like Malfeas, but the canon descriptions go on about how it stifles his attempts to express his creativity, and I think that's where we can find our government-mandated dose of 'Yozis are grumpy balls of crazy' from. The 7 wings and what they represent are another topic, one that I'll delve into more properly in a bit.

So, here is a fuller list of ways to look at Oramus. We are not restricted to picking just one of these, but we do need to decide which ones we like and ones we do not. Some of these I've split into sub-categories so we can actually make clear decisions about what aspects will work with our goals, rather than just being really vague and going 'Oramus is this tied-up thing who changes shape and is/makes people crazy'.

WHAT is Oramus?
-Oramus as the Primordial with aspects of the Fey/Chaos
-Oramus as the guy who stands at/is the gate between the insane Without, which is the Chaos beyond Creation.
-Oramus as the guy who stands at/is the gate between the insane Without, which is something entirely different to Chaos (options for this include "the 'place' that is definitionally opposite to Existence^[1]", "the true reality of Oramus" or "something meta".)


^[1]This is implied strongly by the canon story that talks about Oramus 'existing' before Cytherea awoke everyone, because he contained everything that wasn't, and since he didn't exist at that point he was able to contain himself inside himself.

How should Oramus' artistic aspect be viewed?
-Oramus as a vaguely malicious/memetic, throughly alien being, that wants to spread it's worldview even though it is thoroughly intolerable to the human mind. (This is basically expressed in ES' description of him. I'm not particularly a fan of this aspect.)
-Oramus as a creative artist, representative of pure imagination and childlike wonder, such that people cannot ever fully grasp his nature. (Uncommonly upbeat for a Yozi, but Oramus already has ways he can express his 'Yozi-crazy' that just make this more tragic, so it can actually work quite well.)
-Oramus as an unsolvable mystery behind the door that is himself, and trying to peer beyond this doorway grants as much in the way of madness as it does artistic boons.
-Oramus is like a guy whose job is to farm flowers and who feels inspired to paint flowers as a hobby, as well as offering advice to other people who want to paint flowers. Except the flowers are a conceptual reality that forms a maddeningly incomprehensible array of infinite possibilities.

Mystery
-Oramus as an incomprehensible being who loves to conceal for the sake of it.
-Oramus as a deliberately incomprehensible being who kindly conceals the Without so that we are not forced to view the horror and wonder of the other side.
-Oramus as an incomprehensible being who IS the Without, and does not bother to conceal, for his strange nature is its' own barrier.



There's a lot of subtleties here, but they'll lead to a lot of difference down the track, and if there are this many people wanting to contribute then we NEED to settle on who and what we view Oramus as, so that things don't diverge of in every direction and we end up with the very same 'every idea in every direction' type of charmset we had to start with.

 

Typos aside, I like it. However, I'd suggest adding a commitment cost or an upgrade purchase to defend perfectly against all shaping originating from Raksha, because an always-on perfect against actual characters (even if they're just raksha) is pretty potent for E2. Theion has a similar charm that makes him immune to shaping from the Wyld or subordinate characters, which costs 3m. Oramus should probably be better (probably the best) at anti-Wyld though. A free always-on against environmental stuff from the Wyld itself, then maybe a commitment cost of (Raksha's essence - Infernal's essence) to make you entirely immune to that Raksha, kind of like Loom-Snarling Deception? Then it becomes a power-game where hideously powerful things like Ishvara are still a threat unless the Infernal puts effort into it, yet as the Infernal gains strength the terrors of the Wyld become lesser.

It also encourages Infernals to be cautious about making their homes in Pure Chaos.

I'd go with the third option. The Beyond isn't chaos, it's everything that doesn't exist. Luna trapped Laashe there and called it "Oramus' forge." In there, Oramus decided what would and what would not be permitted into reality. The Beyond is full of things like... things I can't really imagine, which is sort of the point. There's no way to even begin comprehending what goes on in there, and that's Oramus' entire world. Your third suggestion could also work, but I don't like the idea of him being a generous patron. Contact with Oramus, even tangentially, ought to be hilariously dangerous.

I like ES' option and I feel it's most in-line with the broken, bitter nature of the Yozis.

Definitely the third option. Oramus isn't a clever trickster who can be revealed and driven off by a cunning hero, he's more like a calculus problem being looked at by a second grader. What are all these strange symbols and squiggly lines? Where's the plus and minus?

 

Agreed, perhaps it could just offer an environmental defense aginst the Wyld,so a wave of change coming inward from pure chaos won't effect you, but a Raksha can still try shape you into lava, but you can pay like 2m as an instant effect to perfect it or maybe full shaping defense should be its own charm with its own quirks.

#

 

Wow that's a lot of stuff. Do you have something similar for Hegra?

 

As a matter of fact I do: this is a list of Hegra charms made by The Demented One himself. I think they're balanced, at least compared to another set with similar names that appeared in the Onyx Path forum.

Among what I listed in the post below, today I had the most interesting inspiration. I would like to call your attention to the charms made by Arrghus, especially Invoked Firmament Disjunction. Borgstromantic-y of the charm aside, I was reminded of it while reading a manga called Get Backers (relevant page).

While my initial idea was for Oramus to attack via sound, on the other hand the idea of a series of charms that revolve around creating a boundary around yourself and make the area inside your territory with a lot of effects (like an AT Field)...well, I find it very inspiring. What do all of you think?

 

Oramus' themes definitely encompass boundaries. You could have effects like lowering/raising target numbers, extra attacks, adding or removing environmental effects, etc.

The trouble is in making it a balanced charm.

 

What if you gave all of Oramus' non-permanent charms the blasphemy key word? Not entirely sure if that would balance it enough, or just make them bad as a whole. But it would mean that any time you wanted to use an Oramus charm you'd have to be ready to skip town.

Or something like, the more you use them in a scene the more existence/heaven/reality/whatever fights against you, with the effect increasing faster for higher essence charms. This was they might be stronger than average, but you have to use them sparingly, or else.

 

That's too oppressive of a handicap. One or two charms being a Blasphemy could become a useful strategic tool to fool the enemy, though.

 

I thought about it, but like Peanuckle said it's too much of an handicap.

Does someone else have an idea they want to share?

 

Should we add the Bloodborne Great Ones theme into Oramus' whole theme as well? They seem to mesh well with anything lol.
Admittedly, one should read this, as it looks fantastic
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JL5acskAT_2t062HILImBkV8eXAwaqOj611mSjK-vZ8/edit

 

The themes from BB that Oramus matches with can be found in any cosmic horror medium. The more unique themes of childlessness, surrogacy and power through blood don't really match him.

I suppose you could get some kind of "child-making" charm out of how Oramus made Luna, by taking a bunch of crazy nightmares and having them fight to the last one standing. That does kind of match the Hunt.

 

Then you'll at least need some kind of charm to induce nightmares, another to pull them out and actualize it, maybe some kind of charm that allows you to detect nightmares (passively?), and the last to, idk, empower the last nightmare standing? Some kind of charm to induce strife to those wracked by nightmares? Some kind of Shaping/Transformation charm that stacks all the mutancy and shit?

 

A great read, but like Peanuckle the theme that can be applied to Oramus are common to all cosmic horror medium. Admittedly I thought adapting the Insight mechanisms, either as a Charm or new Background, where you grow eyes in your brains along with Derangements but also gain perks, like a Byakugan-like vision.

I think we may have jumped the boat there, so maybe it's best to re-start from step one. To characterize Oramus we should start by define his Urge. Currently there are three possibilities:

What do you think?

 

Xanichan? What the fuck is this, some kind of otaku Yozi/DT?

I dunno, the Bloodborne protagonist doesn't seem so cray cray to me lol. But maybe some kind of All Encompassing Sorcerer's Sight that allows you to see into the metagame or something? Or maybe adds a bonus to Wyld/Raksha bullshit?

And depending on how you fluff it, it could become Permanent in its effects once you reach a high enough essence? With an active version that grants you greater benefits but has a higher chance to gain Derangements?

Also, for some reason, I see Oramus' urge is the urge to Enlighten mortals or something. Well, Infernals of his aspect, that is. Like, cleanse their mind of their beastly idiocy, but replace 'beastly idiocy' with, idk, something something stasis of creation something something.

Like Adorjan when she isn't being a murderbuddha.

 

SPLIT-MIND SPAWNING
Cost: 5 motes, 1 willpower; Mins: Essence 4; Type: Permanent
Keywords: Sorcerous
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite charms: ???

When Oramus created Luna, he spurned the methods of his shadow, seeing the impossible weaknesses concealed by Sol's perfection. Instead, he reached deep into the Beyond and plucked forth the impossible monsters of his worst nightmares, setting them upon each other until only the Argent Maiden stood victorious, blood-soaked and form-filled. The Infernal mimics this methodology, trusting in his own secret horrors to claw their way to fruition. Anytime the Infernal sleeps, she may fall into a deep nightmare where any and all fears, doubts, insecurities and other private torments manifest. Should the Infernal suffer from any Derangements, the highest-rated of these succeeds in slaying and consuming its fellow terrors; otherwise the storyteller may choose or randomly select which creature survives the mental combat. Once the victor is determined, the Infernal wakes from her night-terror, screaming the monster of her mind forth into reality. The nightmare-made-flesh should mechanically be a demon of the first circle, though if it was born from a Derangement it receives its rating as bonus points for creation. The mind-spawn has no particular loyalty towards the Infernal (thought it is never immediately hostile, even if born from a self-harming mental disease) but has its own alien agendas based on the madness from which it spawned. It may be summoned and bound like a first circle demon, though such beings are unsuitable for most purposes outside its interests. If the Infernal is targeted by countermagic at any time during this process, the nightmare aborts and all progress is lost.

Thoughts?

 

Well, 'children' is a theme of Oramus, though I can honestly say I didn't expect it to express quite like that.