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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Discussion in 'Creative Writing' started by Mr Zoat, Jan 27, 2019.

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  1. Stsword

    Stsword Versed in the lewd.

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    That was a plot point in Swamp Thing Future's End.

    Swampy decided to kill the the Black, and arranged for the Grey and the Divided to take over the duties, and asked the Metal to watch over them to make sure neither elemental kingdom would try something stupid.

    To be fair though, the Black predates the Divided's debut, and in Earth 2 the Grey and the Black seem to be the same thing, since the zombie Solomon Grundy is the champion of the Grey there.

    But elemental kingdoms being redundant is nothing new- Animal Man can do bacteria so the Divided would seem to be their own elemental kingdom and a subsection of the Red at the same time.
     
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  2. Prognostic Hannya

    Prognostic Hannya Knight of the Yuri Crusade

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    Divorce wasn't a thing among Olympian gods, at least it wasn't until Paul started meddling.
     
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  3. Radix

    Radix Not too sore, are you?

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    Non-consensual sex is literally rape.

    It doesn't matter if Hades thought she was into it, she did not consent of her own free will. He kidnapped her, forced her to marry him, and raped her. He at no point asked what she wanted or made it clear that she could refuse.
     
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  4. Vaermina

    Vaermina Experienced.

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    There's no mention of Hades raping her in this story or the myths.
     
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  5. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    Even if that's true, he still could have let her spend more time outside of Erebos.

    They could have still been married, but she'd have no need to spend time with him.

    Though if Zeus was the one who arranged that then he may not have been able to even let her do that.
     
  6. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    Do you see the contradiction there?

    She consented. Therefore, it isn't rape. Yes, she was under a misapprehension about what was happening but that doesn't make it Hades fault and that doesn't make it rape.
     
  7. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    It was still massively wrong, though.
     
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  8. m_d

    m_d Fascinated by storytelling

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    Mr Zoat, with respect, that's not how the law in many jurisdictions views coerced consent. If the person is not in a position to freely consent, then the consent extracted does not make it not rape. Someone with a gun to their head, or a threat to their children/parents/etc... can give their consent, but that's not going to hold up as a defense against rape in many jurisdictions. The same can be true for extreme power imbalance with implied coercion, hence why certain types of sexual relationships are illegal in some places - the potential for abuse in some power relationships is so high that from the outside it may be impossible to detect, let alone prove, whether or not it was rape by standards that might be applied otherwise because the disadvantaged party's behaviour would be largely the same whether they actually would freely choose the relationship or not. (As an aside, of course, there can be mutually fulfilling relationships with large power imbalances, it's just that allowing them also results in it being much more difficult to stop the harmful ones.) This of course varies, and obviously, you don't appear to hold that belief, but that's the sort of paradigm that I believe that Radix was referring to. And from that perspective, what you see as a contradiction... isn't one.

    Does this mean that Hades is at fault? Yes, but with some nuance there. There are degrees of fault, that's why there's a difference between murder and manslaughter, distinctions between intentional fault and negligent fault. Still wrong, still had negative impacts that are going to have consequences, even if those consequences are limited to Persephone leaving him.
     
  9. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    Yes, and if Hades had threatened her you'd have a point. He didn't.
     
  10. Duke Long

    Duke Long Know what you're doing yet?

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    I don’t think anyone’s saying it wasn’t.
     
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  11. Ct613hulu

    Ct613hulu Experienced.

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    I think you are missing the point of the above post by focusing on the concept of a "threat". There is considerable room for sexually coercive behavior that doesn't directly involve one person deliberately threatening the other through words or actions. The existence of a substantial power difference means that the more powerful party has a moral responsibility to ensure that they are not inadvertently coercing the weaker party. Choosing not to respect this moral responsibly may not be defined as rape and can be extremely difficult to legally prosecute. That doesn't mean it isn't worthy of criticism and punishment.

    Consider the case of an employer making an uninvited sexual advance on their employee. In this situation the employee will be faced with the choice of either responding positively to this advance or potentially risking their career by angering their employer. This seems like it falls within the bounds of sexually abusive behavior even if the employer doesn't directly threaten or intend to punish their employee. The employer is putting their employee in a terrible position and this should be considered a misdeed irrespective of the actual intentions of the employer.

    The potential for abuse in the employer-employee relationship is far stronger in the Hades-Persephone relationship. Persephone was totally within the power of Hades when their relationship was first established. There was nothing stopping Hades from deciding that the appropriate response to Persephone rejecting him is to subject her to some manner of horrific punishment. She had no real hope of outside assistance given the near unrivaled power of Hades within his domain. Submitting to Hades and hoping that pleasing him will prove sufficient to earn her some limited freedom would have seemed like the only safe option for Persephone. This would have led to the establishment of a deeply unhealthy relationship that could have continued indefinitely with only minor improvement as Persephone maintain a façade of consent and gradually tests how much she can resist Hades. The fact that Persephone attempts to immediately free herself from Hades after the threat of abuse has been removed by the protection offered by Hestaphaen and OL certainly suggests that she wouldn't have chosen to stay with Hades if she was not afraid of him.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2022
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  12. dw7thdoctor

    dw7thdoctor Making the rounds.

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    I agree with you for the most part, but I don't think after the first time that she was afraid him, at least not about him forcing her again due to that being their only sexual encounter in this version of the story. I think that anything their marriage was being enforced most strongly by Zeus. I mean Hades loves her in his way, but from the conversions that have been held in this story I don't believe he was the one holding to this arrangement they have least not as largely as Zeus, who probably made his ruling and didn't want to be questioned on it again.
     
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  13. Lazurman

    Lazurman That Others May Fap

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    Personally, I lay more blame at the feet of Zeus than Hades. He was the one enforcing this decision, seeing as how it’s only upon him being ousted that Persephone is pursuing a divorce.

    I feel real bad for both Hades and Persephone. He really does seem to love her. Maybe he’ll be able to try courting her properly after sufficient time has passed, without any misunderstandings in the way.
     
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  14. Zig

    Zig Know what you're doing yet?

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    There's an argument to be made that they were both raped by Zeus.
     
  15. Bud-E

    Bud-E Stand up so I can push you down!

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    At this point who hasn't been raped by Zeus?
     
  16. m_d

    m_d Fascinated by storytelling

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    ‘Inability to detect’ applies to the person in power too. You even have that in your account.
    From Grind (part 2) https://forums.sufficientvelocity.c...e.25032/page-3243?post=10949444#post-10949444 , the conversation between Paul, Donna, and Hephaestus:
    Assuming that Hephaestus’ account is an accurate representation of what happened in your story, you have Persephone believing that she doesn’t have a choice at the time. If you do not have a choice, you by definition cannot consent. Hades’ confidence in his right, due to Zeus saying so, would probably have meant that Hades would have behaved with a confident expectation that things would go the way that he wished. And according to Hephaestus, to the best of her knowledge of him and other gods in his position, that comes with an implied threat, intended or not. And in that situation, as many rape survivors will tell you, you often go along, and hope you can get through it, and wait for your chance to get out as intact as you can manage. Which appears to be now.

    Look, Hades’ intent doesn’t come into whether or not rape occurred. Persephone’s belief about whether or not it was safe to do anything other than play along does. And Hades’ lack of ensuring her confidence of her safety also comes into it. If Hades had built a level of trust with Persephone to the level that she knew she was safe first, then this might be a different conversation because, at least in Hephaestus’ judgement, once she did know, she would have felt free to tell him no, and Hades would have been less likely to have married her or had sex with her against her will.

    Given Hephaestus’ assessment, Hephaestaean'll probably be receptive to her perspective. Whether he’ll risk any consequences from Hades remains to be seen. It’s possible that if Hades doesn’t oppose Persephone’s divorce, that their relationship could improve, but making her stay would almost certainly be a point against him. I mean, as Hephaestus has said, Hades is a nicer god than he used to be, and may have a good enough understanding that he is a better judge of what happened than he was at the time, so I think it’s likely that Hades won’t oppose it, but I guess we’ll find out.

    TLDR: The fact that Hades chose not to wait until after she got to know him well enough to trust that that she could say no safely is on him.

    Edited to add:

    Look, I want to be clear that I think that from what we’ve seen of present day Hades, he’s an admirable god. That doesn’t mean he’s perfect though. This is a chance for him to be better.
    I would note that there’s some uncertainty over the level of Hades’ and Persephone’s relationship, at least as far as Hephaestus knows - same chapter, Grind (part 2), and this may contribute to uncertainty over how he will rule on this divorce question, even if he might be inclined towards it on principle:

    See, it’s not just Persephone. Hephaestus believes that Hades won’t force himself on Persephone, and that they haven't had sex for quite some time given that Melinoë and Zagreus are their only known children and centuries old, so is respecting her autonomy to that extent, but is still concerned that Hades, even the modern, post ‘mid-life crisis’ Hades, might be so fixated on Persephone that he’s worried enough about him reacting badly that he doesn’t want to rock the boat. Now imagine being Persephone in that environment. Anyway, it might have been easier to be philosophical about it when it wasn’t possible due to Zeus and Hera’s positions, but it’s your call now, Hephaestaean.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2022
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  17. Doccer

    Doccer I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    Why would you...?
    Ah!
    Well you came to the the right man to get stuff done!
     
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  18. Bramble Thorn

    Bramble Thorn Verified Silhouette

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    Ok. This would be a good time to establish the precedent that governments have no business legislating who can and cannot marry each other. Make it so the individuals are the ones who marry themselves, and also divorce themselves.

    Also, take her, and go hunt down Hera, quick.

    Pretty sure this specific instance is more "the reward for a job well done, is more work"
    She's been in a loveless marriage (from her end) for a long time.
    Paul got Diana out of her predicament, she hopes he can do the same for her.

    If it was Synchronicity Wave Travelling, it would have happened after he had resolved whatever Ethane issue Gaia pointed him towards, and started thinking towards Constantine again. As it is coming while OL is already currently involved in a task, I think this is a natural occurrence.

    Rather getting into how insane 'if I disagree in my mind without actually telling the other person so, that means it is rape and their fault' is, I will just say, THIS IS A RULE 8 ISSUE, SO KINDLY SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT YOUR OPINIONS ABOUT IT ON THIS FORUM, NOW AND IN THE FUTURE.

    ...Don't start nothing, won't be nothing. And you are the one trying to start something. And I think I vaguely remember you being rather free with your opinions abut the subject before.
     
  19. Radiant Knight

    Radiant Knight Phoenix Fire

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    :Shrug: Certainly I wouldn't be constantly forgetting what I'm really supposed to be doing. But even every half an hour, let's say, would probably avoid being too obnoxious. As it is, I'm getting the sense that what's going on is effectively taking advantage of Paul's need to fix everything right this moment and not a moment later, especially when it's something he doesn't think will be feasibly done if he delegates it or puts it on hold. One thing leads into another thing leads into a third thing.

    AKA

     
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  20. crazygrox

    crazygrox Versed in the lewd.

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    So on the whole Persephone debate, I think it matters that Persephone hasn't characterized her situation as having been a rape. If she brings forward a claim that it was at any time she might have a strong argument, but if she doesn't agree with that definition of what happened, she's the authority on the matter.

    edit: Though, after so long without claiming the presence of a crime I'm not sure that any reasonable statute of limitations should count it. There are extenuating circumstances, like believing that the relevant authority wouldn't punish anyone if she brought complaint. But at the same time if she hadn't discussed the events in terms of having been a rape within the first few centuries, or even up until a century after she realized he wasn't going to force her if she ever refused when in conversation with any of her friends, or her mother, who came out pretty strongly against the situation. Then there's also an argument that she didn't view it as a rape at the time, and a current complaint in that direction would only exist for the sake of advantage in seeking a divorce.
    He needs a sidekick. Or multiple sidekicks.

    This may be the time to recruit the guy who might become Anarky in the future. Or just find an Orange lantern who's well-suited to helping him out on earth. Or both. Or both and also recruit the kid of the spider queen.

    I know that he's been treating the Team like it's too high-risk for him to actually use it for its stated purpose of training very young heroic apprentices in low-risk missions, but Robin does fine there, they have experience in handling Orange Lanterns, and it's lower-risk than actually involving young lanterns in the war effort.
    It may be worth seeing whether the young would adapt to the mental changes required to use a ring well and not go insane/bounce back from periods of squirrelliness any better, or whether they'd go crazy even more.

    But at the same time, would taking on more training duties just give him more distractions?

    edit: If you think about it, apprentices are supposed to reduce workload, because you can offload a ton of your workload onto them. And if you get too much work you just increase the number of apprentices.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2022
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  21. Someguy Somewhere

    Someguy Somewhere The Critical Fumbler

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    The implication of threat also includes comparison to Hades siblings, and how other such gods have taken 'rejection' and their response to the offending party.

    If you turn down Poseidon or Zeus, bad things happened. The implied threat that if you turn down Hades is there.

    Legally yeah, just because your siblings are murderers, rapists and are willing and able to do horrible things to people on a whim doesn't mean you are guilty by association. But when you keep openly associating with them, do not vocally condemn such actions, it tends to imply acceptance or even support of such behavior.

    And Everyone was aware of that fact. Save for Hades himself apparently.

    Hades, in this story, evidently after having things explained or figuring things out for himself never had relations with her after having that moment where she figured out she could say no without a violent response. At that point however she already had several of his children, which complicates matters. If she tried to leave him, what became of the kids? I won't go in to real life examples for rules reasons, but the fact that, no matter her feelings for the children's father she did care for the kids, which gave another implied threat. If she left she would either have to flee with them or be denied access to them.

    She had no recourse, as the only powers that would be able to help her that she might have had access to were the cause of the issue (Zeus) or not likely to do anything about it (Poseidon).

    You'd have all sorts of grounds for Coercion under modern legal grounds in a western court of law.

    However Olympus follows it's own rules, it's own traditions and it's own laws. And it's up to the new king to determine how to implement those....and pretty quick too.
     
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  22. m_d

    m_d Fascinated by storytelling

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    From what we've seen, the new king is more likely to take counsel and get viewpoints from other people than the old king, which is a point in his favour. He actually does research! And he can read and absorb information rapidly. That should help with the mortal perspective side of things. Other gods whose domains and/or experience give them insight may also be helpful. Not that the experiences and viewpoints of other gods are inherently great, though certainly some have relevance in various cases, but at least it might help him avoid making mistakes due to blind spots he might have. Paul's example is a mixed bag when it comes to this, but I'd say that he's had more success with consulting with people on areas outside his area of expertise than not, and Hephaestaean has probably noticed.
     
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  23. Someguy Somewhere

    Someguy Somewhere The Critical Fumbler

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    There is something that occurred to me...
    There is the chance that the divorce is not a rejection of Hades per say, but the less then stellar situation that lead to the marriage in the first place. Having gotten to actually know Hades on a more personal level once the initial rejection was put forward, Persephone may have mixed feelings about the situation as a whole.

    It could be that Persephone wishes to reject the marriage as it was decreed under Zeus, and afterwards allow a more modern courtship without all the Olympian baggage. If things go well, and with the full permission of her mother this time around, they could, if they so wish, choose to remarry on a more equal footing.
     
  24. Cuchulin

    Cuchulin Versed in the lewd.

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    I hope it is something like that.
     
  25. Threadmarks: Regnancy (part 14)
    Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    30th October 2012
    00:04 GMT -3


    "Yeah, we… Saw this coming. Um. How blunt to you want me to be? Fair warning, I can do 'fairly' and 'very'."

    The… Seedling's face has the suggestion of features, but it doesn't look like it's flexible enough to have actual expression.

    "You will refuse me. What is so different between-?"

    "No. I don't have the authority to approve or disapprove. I raised the issue with Hephaestaean and he's already considering it. But Hephaestaean is working on reorganising the entire pantheon so your marital status isn't a high priority. And once that's done he is still going to need Hades's support. He and I are both aware that you did not enter into your marriage entirely of your own free will, but we've really got no idea how to handle the situation in a way that doesn't just blow up in our faces."

    "So he might grant my petition at some point in the future?"

    "It's possible. If you wish to help your case, I strongly suggest coming up with a solution that isn't just the petition being granted and you leaving. If there's anything that could allow you and your husband to reconcile, ask and I'll make it happen."

    "I have lived in fear of that man for longer than your people have had the wheel. There is nothing."

    "Well… We'll try and come up with something, but it's going to be a while."

    "I understand. I have grown accustomed to such disappointment."

    She kneels, then the exterior of her vessel starts to harden and grow woody. After a few moments the skin is solid bark, and I see roots extruding from the lower part of the body into the ground.

    "Huh."

    "That was Persephone."

    "Ancient Greek telepresence. Honestly, that was quite creative. I hope we end up being able to keep her on board."

    "I… So… She's in the underworld?"

    "Erebos." I flash her a smile. "Honestly, given your association with Euanthe, you'll probably end up going there when you die."

    "Euanthe offered to have me reborn as a dryad."

    "Oh? I didn't know that she could do that. Generous of her."

    "She said it was…" She's staring at the bark-encrusted body. "Was because I was already so closely tied to her, she'd basically take my soul into her to make it happen."

    "Sounds plausibl-."

    "Does-? Does winter really happen because Demeter misses her?"

    "No, of course not. Don't be ridiculous. Winter happens because that hemisphere of the planet is tilting away from the sun."

    "No, I-. I know that. I just don't know how much of the stories are true."

    "Demeter caused crop failures, but it wasn't over the whole of the world. If she'd tried that the gods of those regions would have stepped in and stopped her, which might have resulted in the Hellenes deciding to worship one of them instead of her."

    "She doesn't want to be married to Hades."

    "Correct."

    "Why doesn't she just leave him?"

    "Ah, well, when Demeter went crazy crops failed and a lot of people died. Do you know what happens if the God of the Dead decides to spend all his time trying to woo his wife back instead of doing his job?"

    "Oh. Would he do that?"

    "Oh yes, he genuinely loves her. How well do you know the story?"

    "I skimmed it as Poison Ivy. Hades tricked Persephone into staying in the underworld -Erebos- with him by spiking her drink with pomegranate seeds. Demeter turned the world into a barren wasteland until Zeus stepped in and negotiated a compromise."

    "The main thing is that Hades got permission from Persephone's father to marry her, and incorrectly assumed that that meant that said father had talked it through with Demeter and Persephone. He hadn't. So when Hades turned up she thought that she was being abducted, but was too intimidated to actually say anything, and as far as I know the pomegranate thing didn't happen at all."

    "But Hades knows now."

    "And he keeps trying to improve their relationship because he does actually love her, and it's not working."

    "Have-?" Dr. Isley shakes her head. "Have they considered marriage counselling?"

    "They know all of their issues. I've talked to their children and quite a few other people who know them, and there isn't really anything that could be fixed by adding a new perspective. The problem is how the relationship started, and Hades has done everything he could to fix that."

    "Other than letting her get a divorce."

    "That wouldn't fix the relationship." I quietly snort. "There was a… Case I was involved in a while ago, in India. A group of refugees accepted refuge in a magical land, and one of their children was made the magical heir to the place. His mother freaked out because she hates magic, grabbed him and fled. The current ruler used force to get him back."

    "I don't see the link."

    "The boy and Persephone both have a place of honour. Neither are mistreated, and the consequences for them going elsewhere are bad for a lot of people. In utilitarian terms, the choice between being a prince and condemning a nation to death is simple. For most of history, a woman complaining that her king-husband who loves her, is faithful to her and is actually a pretty good father was a bit brusque when they first met thousands of years ago but apologised as soon as he found out about the misunderstanding would be…"

    "Unreasonable. But at the same time, it's not right to force her to be somewhere she doesn't want to be." She frowns. "If Euanthe joins the Greek pantheon, does this become our problem?"

    I shrug. "Not more than it is already. Has Euanthe extended the gift of chlororeincarnation to the rest of her worshippers?"

    "No, not yet. You mean that they're going to Erebos when they die?"

    "Probably."

    "What do we..? Get out of worshipping the other gods?"

    "Someone magical overseeing the parts of existence that Euanthe isn't and doesn't care about. And given that Hephaestaean wants the gods to become more active, probably low level blessings and active guidance for the devout. For me, afterlife services was the big thing I wanted because my rings already give me a mission and a method."

    "You worship Hades? That seems a bit sombre for you."

    "No, I worship… In the sense of making offerings, to any gods who deserve it. My particular patron is Eris."

    "What's she goddess of?"

    "Chaos."

    "That makes a lot of sense." She nods. "I'll tell Euanthe about this when she finishes with her tree."

    "Thank you."

    She nods and starts to walk back towards the temple-palace, then stops herself.

    "Would Persephone like Hades if they hadn't met like that?"

    "No idea. Objectively, they have the best marriage amongst the major Olympians."

    "Kind of a shame they can't just start over."

    "Yes, it-."



    Huh.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2022
  26. Ngamer11

    Ngamer11 Versed in the lewd.

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    That should be removed.

    Is this going to result in time travel shenanigans?
     
  27. Kalem_Lee

    Kalem_Lee Experienced.

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    Oh no. Paul's getting ideas again.

    Eris laughs in chaotic delight.
     
  28. DrThoth

    DrThoth I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    Don't know if this means they're going to Lethe-dunk one or both of the couple involved, but that's the assumption that I made upon reading the end. I think that would be a terrible idea but certainly interesting to read about.

    Hera could make herself useful and do marriage counseling, maybe. Or at least exercise her power in her new adjacent domain as God of Divorce adequately.

    I'm kind of wondering if Hades's love for Persephone is entirely of his own volition or Zeus got Aphrodite and/or Eros involved somehow because he wanted Hades to get laid or whatever. I kind of want to see Paragon arrange a meeting between Hades and Teth Adom now, even if the specific details of their situation vary.
     
  29. FeepingCreature

    FeepingCreature Not too sore, are you?

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    Men make plans, and the Gods laugh.

    Paul makes plans, and the Gods take cover.
     
  30. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    Yeah, she may have known that he wouldn't force himself on her, but she probably lived with the fear that he might do it one day.

    That's just depressing.

    I'm assuming a lot of ghosts running around.

    But would he neglect his duties as god of the dead just to pursue her?

    Not that Persephone wants one.

    "involved in"

    "stops"

    Ohh, god, please don't tell me you're going to try time travel.

    You do realize that you don't have to do such extreme things to fix things, right?

    That thing with Jade and the resurrections didn't exactly work out.

    That's not saying much.
     
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