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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Discussion in 'Creative Writing' started by Mr Zoat, Jan 27, 2019.

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  1. Ct613hulu

    Ct613hulu Experienced.

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    I agree that there was enough confusion when this whole situation started for Hade's culpability to be greatly reduced. He should have done better, but the primary blame is with Zeus.

    What I don't get is how Hades isn't responsible for the situation continuing on for thousands of years. It just doesn't make sense for him to never catch on that Persephone was only with him out of fear. Once he did realize this it seems like the only moral course of action would be for Hades to assure Persephone that he had no intentions of punishing her for rejecting him and that she was free to end their relationship at any point. There doesn't seem to be any reason for their relationship to have continued for so long when it is obvious that Persephone strongly wants it to end that doesn't say some terrible things about Hades.
     
  2. m_d

    m_d Fascinated by storytelling

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    Mr Zoat, I’m going to preface this by saying that I’m well aware that I’m merely a reader enjoying reading this work, and you are free to write it however you like. You can write a character and we can disagree about the significance of their actions without stopping you from enjoying the writing and me from the reading of it. I’m aiming for something friendly. That said, here are some notes:

    So, as an example, you can write Persephone as being weak-willed, and as other commenters have said, we can interpret her actions as indications of other things. I’m fortunate not to have personally experienced this situation or a close analogue, but I have read credible accounts that I would interpret to mean that pretending that everything is as it should be, not letting on how you really feel and giving up the game when faced with unspeakable choices, enduring, when slipping up can have terrifying consequences, takes tremendous fortitude and level-headedness. This isn’t only in the realm of coercive relationships, but also for people in espionage, statecraft, resistance movements, and other endeavours.

    https://forum.questionablequesting....i-thread-fourteen.8938/page-1731#post-5542990
    You realize that that works the other way around too? And Hades probably comes off worse in that. Perception doesn’t make it real? Okay.

    Persephone believed that Hades expected her to be his wife in all ways (actually true), and that there would be severe consequences if she failed in that role (in terms of sex, apparently not, as far as we know, but still up in the air as far as actually ceasing to be his wife - and Paul believes that it’s credible enough that he’s advocating against divorce). As a result, she went along with what he said he wanted even though she did not want to and quite likely would not have freely consented to if asked.

    According to Hephaestus, and you, Hades believed he did the proper thing and talked to Zeus to have him talk to his daughter and her mother about whether he could marry his niece. He trusted Zeus to do right by his daughter and her mother and actually give permission for the marriage with their knowledge and consent, and everything that went with that. He believed that Zeus was trustworthy and he didn’t need to verify this with Persephone or her mother… As a result he believed that Persephone was fine with and consented to the marriage and sex. Neither of these were true. Let me say that again. He believed that the thing that makes it not rape - the consent of his partner - existed. “That didn’t make it true. It wasn’t true.” And he bears substantial responsibility for putting her in that situation, as well as not taking seriously enough the possibility that the situation could exist (see, not establishing a relationship of trust). He also had less reason to believe that false belief than Persephone had reason to believe that it would be dangerous to refuse Hades.

    Both of them could have cleared up that mismatch between belief and reality. The cost to each for the attempt to do so as measured by a reasonable expectation of consequences for someone in their position would be phenomenally lower for Hades than Persephone’s terrifying heights. So what makes Hades’ false belief less a fault than Persephone’s false belief exactly? You seem to have placed more weight on Persephone’s failure to trust that Hades would take a no (against reason) than Hades failure to verify a yes (when Zeus, so trustworthy about establishing consent, is saying what he wants to hear). You say that checking himself would imply that Zeus lied to him, with implied consequences for the insult. There is such a thing as discretion. And when he’s got Persephone in his domain, who is going to know? There’s time between getting some privacy and getting married and consummating the marriage.

    All that said, I found these chapters quite interesting. We don’t actually know what Hades actually thinks currently about his marriage and Persephone from his mouth. Persephone fears him, but may not need to. Paul and Hephaestaean are concerned that a divorce will “blow up in our faces”, though, from what Hephaestus said back in Grind, he doesn’t actually know but really doesn’t want to guess wrong due to the possible magnitude of the consequences, but I don’t know that either of them have actually talked with him about the possibility. I still hope that Hades in all his years as a judge has learned some things and come to some realizations about ways you can treat someone who you love but doesn’t love you back, and moreover, finds being stuck married to you …unhealthy? stressful? dispiriting? A situation that you might not actually wish for your beloved? Now that Zeus and Hera’s positions are different, perhaps he can think of a better arrangement that both he and Persephone can live with.

    I look forward to the coming chapters.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2022
  3. crazygrox

    crazygrox Versed in the lewd.

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    Not if you're not sending them to do fighting.

    And possibly not if you're just keeping them away from any fighting that could be characterized as a war.

    Paul does a lot of non-fighting work, from investigation, to diplomacy, to transporting things and people.
    If the team actually reliably followed orders to stick to scouting, then having another younger lantern along who stays back and provides scans would be valuable, and let parts of their training be offloaded to group exercises, but things always spiral out of control, so even if it might theoretically be fine, practical experience proves it isn't.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2022
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  4. Breadnaught

    Breadnaught Versed in the lewd.

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    By all accounts, this came to light a long time ago. He apologised, gave her space, and has spent the last few thousand years trying to improve their relationship and patch things up. Trying to win her heart.

    Based on the number of kids, and the demonstrated character of Hades in this fic, I don't think he ever forced the issue, so apparently Persephone has been in the mood for a good tumble/wanted children a number of times over the years. It's just that she doesn't love him, and feels stuck in a functional, but loveless relationship.

    As for Hades not just letting her go, she's currently talking about petitioning Hephaestion for the right to divorce, so I'm not sure on the social structure and customs involved there. I could well believe that Zeus just refused to change his mind and grant them a seperation.

    Of course, it's possible Hades is also refusing, determined to make it work. Guess we'll see.
     
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  5. Radix

    Radix Know what you're doing yet?

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    Something occurs to me. What if this is just a repeat and Hades immediately says yes because he loves her enough to let her go. It has only been the assesment or others that he wont let her be divorced.
     
  6. Ct613hulu

    Ct613hulu Experienced.

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    Keep in mind that Persephone says "I have lived in fear of that man for longer than your people have had the wheel. There is nothing" in this latest chapter when she asks for a divorce and OL bring up the possibility of reconciliation. I interpreted this quote (along with all of the other mentions of Persephone doing everything she can to distance herself from Hades) as a clear indicator that she always wanted to end her relationship with Hades and never stopped being afraid of him. This is far worse than a simple loveless relationship.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2022
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  7. Duke Long

    Duke Long Know what you're doing yet?

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    To the people suggesting time travel, doesn’t time travel now work in such a way that it actually creates a new timeline rather than changing the current one? In that case, Paul would just be creating a universe where the problem is fixed while abandoning one where it still exists.
     
  8. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    That's not necessarily true.

    Given her feelings towards him she either thought she didn't have much of a choice or she had all their kids before Hades figured out that she didn't know what was happening.

    Who can say at this point.

    Time travel is weird as fuck.
     
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  9. Breadnaught

    Breadnaught Versed in the lewd.

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    But every other account indicates he's no intention of harming her, apologised and gave her space once the misunderstanding came to light, and is only trying to make their relationship work.

    The referenced sentence seems to be an outlier, and possibly just hyperbole.

    I suppose it's possible she kept up the act and didn't reveal she was unhappy with the relationship for the years needed to have the kids, but it's seems implausible.
     
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  10. Splinterface

    Splinterface Getting sticky.

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    Hope that happens. Obvs if you love someone you let them free, but I think most people aren’t holding their breath on that because ostensibly he loved her the past thousands of years, and I think we probably could’ve released her at any point then. I don’t Zeus would’ve cared. Maybe laughed at his brother? Doesn’t seem like he’d get his toga in a twist over it.
     
  11. m_d

    m_d Fascinated by storytelling

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    That's a misrepresentation. Assuming that the section below is correct, they only had two offspring in this story, and they're close to the same age. Zagreus was conceived early enough that that those seeds were considered the "pomegranate seeds" that prevented Persephone from leaving. According to Hephaestus, both he and Melinoë were conceived before she trusted Hades enough to say no. After she could, they never shared a bed again.

    From Grind (part 2)

     
    Last edited: May 2, 2022
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  12. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    There was another daughter mentioned, but she only showed up in a bit role in a previous chapter that I can't remember.
     
  13. Breadnaught

    Breadnaught Versed in the lewd.

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    Hmm, must have mis-remembered. I thought there was others, aside from Melinoë and Zagreus.
     
  14. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    There was another daughter that's connected to pleasant deaths, but she only appeared once and I don't think she said anything.
     
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  15. Ct613hulu

    Ct613hulu Experienced.

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    He let Persephone build her own palace and didn't rape her after the birth of their first two children. That is still far from letting her live her life as a free woman. She is forced to spend half of her life in the Underworld and will always be restricted by the many social complications that would come from being the wife of Hades. It must have been essentially impossible for her to pursue any love or happiness outside of the life Hades forced on her. This all before we get into the horror that comes from being forced to live under the control of someone who (this is true from her perspective and thus traumatic) kidnapped and raped her.

    A moral and healthy relationship needs to be built on the consent of all the parties involved. The desire of one party for a loving relationship can't possibly be sufficient to justify coercing another party to stay in the relationship. That is exactly what Hades is doing when he stops Persephone from ending their relationship as she has clearly wanted to do for a very long time.

    Why does it seem implausible that a woman terrified of her husband and completely cut off for any means of escape would simply do whatever he says without resisting? That is pretty much a textbook definition of spousal abuse. Please don't tell me you are trying to say that a women can only get pregnant as a result of sex with someone she loves.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2022
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  16. Assblaster5000

    Assblaster5000 I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    Time was changed to work like that back during The Crisis Of Infinite Pauls by Time Trapper Paul. I'm not really sure how many universes the change covers, especially given that WTR seems to take place in a truly infinite multiverse, but we can reasonably say it's in place for Universe 16 at a minimum since it covers both Paragon and Mandated Paul.
     
  17. Breadnaught

    Breadnaught Versed in the lewd.

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    Of-fucking-course it's plausible for a terrified person to do what they're told without resisting. No one said anything different. People are just pointing out that the punishment she feared was entirely in her own head due to a (perhaps reasonable, perhaps not) misunderstanding.

    You can cut that shit out right now. No one said anything of the kind and you fucking know it, so stop trying to virtue signal with this strawmanning crap.
     
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  18. Ct613hulu

    Ct613hulu Experienced.

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    Sorry if it came off that way. This was meant as a genuine request for clarification and not an accusation.

    It seemed to me that you were arguing that Persephone must have been accepting of her relationship with Hades as it is impossible for a woman unhappy with their relationship to have children when you said "I suppose it's possible she kept up the act and didn't reveal she was unhappy with the relationship for the years needed to have the kids, but it's seems implausible.". I don't understand your argument in this sentence if that is not the case.

    What exactly do you find implausible about Persephone "keeping up the act" long enough to have kids? As I mentioned, this is something that is tragically common in real life.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2022
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  19. Breadnaught

    Breadnaught Versed in the lewd.

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    Partially due to me mis-remembering things, I thought they had more kids. Meaning, I thought Persephone had been in the mood and they'd shared a bed occasionally over the years. Implying a relationship that was loveless, but apparently functional. Basically something like roommates that occasionally bang. Another poster suggested that she'd been maintaining the act all that time, which I didn't think was super plausible.

    Then another poster dug up a quote and corrected that. Turns out they'd just had the twins early on, then she told him about the misunderstanding. He apologised and they haven't shared a bed since.

    Based on the quote, I get the impression that, at the time at least, both Zeus was digging his heals in and refused to admit he was wrong and revoke his blessing, and Hades wasn't willing to push for a separation while she was pregnant/they had small children. I think.
     
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  20. DrThoth

    DrThoth I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    Minor correction but they're not twins, they were just born fairly close together in time because of, well, everything we've been discussing the past 2 pages of the thread.
     
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  21. Ct613hulu

    Ct613hulu Experienced.

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    I actually enjoy the idea of Persephone and Hades as "roommates who bang". This seems like it could be an interesting symbolic representation of the symbiotic relationship between fertility and death. I do faintly recall some takes on this theme with modern fiction that sought to re-imagine the myth of Persephone. It is somewhat disappointing that Mr Zoat didn't go in this direction as I enjoy see Hades depicted as a great ruler and beloved patriarch. I would also have liked for there to be at least one healthy relationship in the Olympic Pantheon. Hopefully we can expect to see one soon now that there is nothing stopping Athena and Hephaestean from getting together as full partners.

    Your post also makes me think about how Persephone relates to her children. Both of them seem to have taken totally after their father as they draw power directly from Erebos and don't seem to have any metaphysical or personal connection to the Green. Does this indicate that Persephone didn't develop a maternal bond with them and they responded by treating Hades as their primary parent? Is it a simple consequence of them being born in the Underworld or them only inheriting the attributes of their stronger parent? I think that these questions provide an opportunity for further worldbuilding on the nature of Divine Families and the creation of new Gods.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2022
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  22. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    Zagreus is connected to rebirth, which Persephone also shares, so he may have inherited that from her.
     
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  23. Stsword

    Stsword Versed in the lewd.

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    I disagree with the idea that counseling would be useless.

    If Hades actually loves Persephone instead of it being an obsession, than her misery is his misery. Love is that condition in which the happiness of another person is essential to your own as the saying goes.

    So if he actually loves Persephone, then he's been miserable for millennia because she's been miserable for millennia and doesn't want the misery to stop.

    That's some real toxic self destructive shit there.
     
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  24. Vaermina

    Vaermina Experienced.

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    Of course, another person might have come around and changed it back since then.
     
  25. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    That's not quite it. Before Hera got smashed and Eris decided to stir shit to see what would happen, Olympians didn't divorce. It wasn't a thing. Hephaestus literally caught his wife and her lover at it and all he got was some cash back. Have a read about Ancient Greek attitudes to faithfulness. They most certainly did not have our modern attitude towards dissolving marriages.
    No, she's fine with them. Their bond to Erebos is more due to them being conceived there and growing up there than closeness to one parent over another.
     
  26. AR760

    AR760 Versed in the lewd.

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    Sometimes the misery you get from someone being around is less than the misery you'd experience if they were gone.

    And Hades seems to be a likely candidate to feel that way when it comes to Persephone in this story.
     
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  27. Wivk

    Wivk Getting sticky.

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    Hades isnt going to hurt these women, its just the implication.
     
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  28. crazygrox

    crazygrox Versed in the lewd.

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    Y'see, now I'm wondering about the bronze age collapse.

    According to what little I can find, there was an increase in temperatures beforehand, but a sharp decrease in temperatures and lack of precipitation in greece at the time of the abandonment of most palace centers in greece.
    Getting bad enough that there's evidence of greek plants evolving to survive desert-like conditions.

    The collapse hit Greece hard enough that there isn't any writing in the region for centuries afterwards. And the mixture of migration, crop failures, and disruption of trade networks(which were necessary to move the tin needed for bronze, which was critical for everything) brought down or caused major disruption in every civilization around the eastern Mediterranean.

    It might have been possible to avoid being replaced with one of the other offended agriculture gods, despite also affecting their regions and pissing them off, if the greek pantheon and greek people had already clearly identified those gods as enemies, from previous conflicts(which would have inevitably been provoked by the Hellenistic gods). And it may have been a strategy to try to place external pressure on Zeus, from people who might actually be able to threaten him and his supporters, to get him to overturn his previous decision.

    Is it possible that the real-world Demeter story is a distorted memory of religious explanations for the collapse?(it includes the god of death, and the anger of the gods causing crop failure)
    In a mythology kitchen sink setting like DC would there be a relation?
    Hrmm, I suspect that, if they could import alien plant-based domestic goods manufacturing, and keep up with the food needs of the populace without destructive industrialized farming, it might be possible to overcome the market disadvantages of spreading out by using digital marketplaces.
    In which case actually living spread out in small groups would be psychologically healthy and strategically advantageous(it makes them hard to nuke or orbitally bombard).
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2022
  29. Someguy Somewhere

    Someguy Somewhere The Critical Fumbler

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    Alternatives would be to do the destructive manufacturing and industrial farming on barren planets, which the Green doesn't care about (the Red might, but so far the only one that seems to get angry for the cows and chickens is TT Beast Boy).

    Import your goods and such from off world. You'd still need to set up for a more urban housing then what they'd want in their plant based civilization, and handle garbage recycling better, but you'd be a bit closer to more modern living as we understand it.
     
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  30. DbDRAKE

    DbDRAKE Possibly some sort of Actual Dragon?

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    I know it isn't cannon, but GAME Hades greek cthonic gods are so fucking charming that they have infiltrated my brain.
     
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