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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Discussion in 'Creative Writing' started by Mr Zoat, Jan 27, 2019.

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  1. Doc Sithicus

    Doc Sithicus Getting sticky.

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    Speak for yourself. I find Paul's versions existing in non-superhero universes refreshing, I used to be a big Turtledove fan in the day, and still love alternative history stories.
     
  2. AR760

    AR760 Versed in the lewd.

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    I am? I don't know where in my post you got the idea that I was speaking for anyone else other than myself lmao. How closely did you actually read it?

    I explicitly said that what I was saying was purely my thoughts as a reader.

    The entire storyline to me comes across as a British power fantasy enabled through the introduction of external technology and knowledge from Paul and alien ex machina. That is narratively being presented as something Britain has a right to and earned, and that Britain is going into the future on its own by virtue of possessing that superior tech base into conquering space.

    I mean, even in the first update, the premise and theme seemed pretty explicitly clear.
    With statements like the following, which was in part 2 of Black Arrow as coming across as quite ironic.
    And even after all that, I still said that I recognize that the author can write about whatever the heck they want. And that my impression or reception of the content coming across as a British power fantasy or nostalgia bait/fuel for when England was a superpower was exactly that. My impression and my reception.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2022
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  3. hance1986

    hance1986 A pitiful excuse for a man.

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    Zoat did say this was a riff on the comic Ministry of Space which is also all about British space dominance while also telling the other nations to kick rocks. I mean the thing here is by Paul's internal monologue Britain is lowteching what they are publicly showing while already having footholds on Mars and the Moon. The space game is rigged. No other nation knows aliens exist or that British advancement comes from nonhuman tech.

    I love it. It's not overt war but being locked out may cause mistakes to be made meaning that in the event of a 3rd international conflict this time Britain will not lose, unveiling some of those kinetic harpoon ideas Paul was talking about when he first met Churchill that are nukes without the fallout. So say Germany along with some other allied European nations want to so something by force regarding British 'selfishness' and get utterly destroyed from orbit. Like no contest. And then they have to deal with it.

    That's what I like about this Black Arrow storyline.
     
  4. AR760

    AR760 Versed in the lewd.

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    And that doesn't sound like a British power fantasy to you?

    Because the summarized premise of everything you just said is that the theme of the story is that Britain wins everything forever and is centered around them having space dominance over others only because of alien tech and Paul as a deus ex machina with his Lantern ring.

    The game is rigged. They already won. And nobody can do anything about it.

    Taking what you just said, see what I mean?
     
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  5. BR549

    BR549 This is filth! FILTH!!

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    Yes, and isn't that interesting?
     
  6. AR760

    AR760 Versed in the lewd.

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    When the premise becomes Britain wins and that's it? No. That's boring.

    You already know how the story ends, and can more or less predict with a high degree of probability much about how it will unfold if the above is true. With England winning and solving all problems through the alien tech or Lantern ring bullshit.

    Space harpoons/defense satellites to protect England against nukes and as planetary power projection. International colonization spearheaded through English efforts and benefiting England alone. Resource acquisition through alien tech facilitating shit like asteroid mining or matter transmutation. Intelligence superiority through Ring or Alien electronic warfare or communications tech.

    And so on and so on. Ectera, ectera.

    That robs the story of conflict, and leaves any confrontation or sense of atmosphere with the inevitable sense of British victory feeling again, like a complete power fantasy.


    It comes across as all the more insufferable because their prosperity would come entirely from a deus ex machina, meaning that their sense of superiority feels hypocritical since it would be entirely unearned.

    The author can write a British power fantasy if they want. I even said as much.

    But I personally think that a story where the known outcome is England wins everything forever is boring. And even worse if and when the point of view character comes across as smarmy, superior, and quite smug about it in the process.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2022
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  7. Lord Ernest

    Lord Ernest At the End...

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    I've seen enough 'Stargate in an alternate country' fics to not be bothered by this. Is it wanky? Yes, but so what? Nothing wrong with a wank, it's natural, healthy and normal. And what alt-Paul hasn't been wanky, anyway? The only difference with this one is that it's actually his original country instead of Themyscira or someplace else. And those other ones have been interesting as well. In fact, this alternate is as interesting as the Fallout one to me.

    I'm a bit disappointed that this Paul isn't actually trying to bring the UK to the forefront to then bully all the other countries into compliance though, but maybe that's a later strategy? Like, get British hegemony of the system and then reveal when it's too late for other countries to sabotage and catch up? Then they just have to comply if they want to be part of the modern world and the space expansion? 'Cause, I mean, I don't know much, but unless the UK starts multiplying by a lot I don't think they have enough people to colonize too much? And eventually the reptiles or somebody else may come a-knocking?
     
  8. Chojin Patriarch

    Chojin Patriarch Veteran Lurker

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    Impressive. A four year jump between segments. This Paul may well be putting in a speedrun attempt. And no doubt with a quantum leap in aerospace technology courtesy of one spaceman with a ring and an aborted alien invasion...

    And with such a large time jump comes... Exposition!

    Ah, something of an Iron Lady, then. Though I doubt this world will ever see the other one rise to power. Not with all these Mothra dumping changes to the timeline by flapping their sparkly wings...

    Hardly the most pleasant name. :sneaky: Very much a blatant reminder of their lesser status, hmm?

    Still, in a century or two, with the right propaganda, no-one will remember that North America used to be separate states...

    Assuming his ring still has power, I have no doubt he's recording everything for the military intelligence divisions' analysis departments.

    Amusingly, not that far ahead of the real world. Once the snowball got rolling, aerospace science got its act together right quick. Mostly because of competition.

    Indeed, fiction writers of the day put a few stories down on that theme...

    Why worry about the sky when your people are more concerned with the ground, and the food they're growing?

    Subtle self-dig at British Imperialism, eh? I suppose said empire is long-gone by now.

    No, that's what the secret KKV satellites will be for.

    'Skylark', eh? Such a British name for a rocket. And likely not the last such understated name, unlike the lofty names America used.

    Yes, the propaganda victory of Britain planting its flag on the closest celestial body to Earth will just be the start...

    Dragging the world into the Information Age kicking and screaming, eh?

    A good oversimplification. Very much a Lie to a Child.

    Heh. I suppose by 1955 or so, they'll make a pony show of a 'first manned mission to Mars'. Just have to be careful not to catch the cities in camera shot.

    Oh, just keep being smug at her, Paul...

    Embodying the principle of 'Speaking softly, but carrying a big stick." In this case, a stick made of a few tons of titanium.

    Now, if you'd like to pay through the nose for services related to them, well, I'm sure the ambassadors will be taking inquiries.

    Ah, if only you could pull the Tenth Doctor's ploy. Six. Little. Words. Don't You Think She Looks Tired?

    I'm sure he'd offer it, whether you agreed or not. Just being less blatant about it.

    Hell, no. Keep stomping their stupid heads into the dirt until they get the idea of racial superiority out of their thick skulls...

    Ah, America, you and your tradition of rebelliousness, written right into your constitution.

    Yes, not having the Americans, or anyone else, looking deeper at things like resource consumption...

    What's the bet the rocket on the pad isn't even crewed? Why waste the resources when you can fake it? :D

    Heh. An interesting little diversion, to cover the boring bits of the main plot. I doubt we're missing out on anything, not seeing the mission team walk along a path. And seeing this little 'national uplift, speedrun edition' plot is quite entertaining. Mostly because of its Paul's sheer dry amusement and smugness at pretty much everyone. Guess being the most powerful person on Earth has its perks.
     
  9. hance1986

    hance1986 A pitiful excuse for a man.

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    Here's the thing. Somebody has to win. This isn't some liberal international cooperation kind of thing. This is not Earth Prime or even 1949 Earth 16. This is Earth had a viable Confederate government that was gassing blacks for expediency until recently. This is an alt-Earth. The hell with fairness.

    Britain is just space-grinding in the corner until there is enough soft power and economic power that a gun in the face is not necessary.

    And there are loose plot threads to think about too. It was kind of implied but we don't know if Paul actually FTLed to Home and killed the Race Emperor and the Race government and wrecked their industrial capacity. Paul alluded to an optimistic projection that 80 years would be enough time for a new approaching Conquest/Colonization Fleet. But given the conservative nature of the Race, it could take 2-3 times as long. Plus if Paul did zip over and disrupt Race society and ability to project any kind of power, no way the Race would know it was a Tosevite Big Ugly who did it. Meaning the Race may be entirely in the dark as to how everything went to shit.
     
  10. AR760

    AR760 Versed in the lewd.

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    They already more or less have it given that they are close to having their satellite fleet. And the vast fleet of ships Paul has arranged for Britain to access as soon as they have a working space craft. With even more on the way to join the collection already hanging out.

    Also, Paul already destroyed the enemy aliens. They would require at best 80 years to recover, which Paul even said was unlikely. Not to mention. If he did it once, what exactly is stopping him from doing it again? Or Britain from using the resources already acquired from Paul's previous victory to sweep them away?

    See below. He already has hundreds of thousands of tanks and fighters to give to Britain. They've already essentially won. So what room does that leave for telling any story other than mentioning the future astroid mining and space satellites and the cavalcade of inevitable English victories in a power fantasy, sense of smug superiority kind of vibe?

    The aliens are essentially called entirely a non-issue. Especially with Paul around, given he already beat them and can do so again.

    The problem/solution paradigm has already more or less already been outlined, like I said before and you can see in the quoted section above.

    Space harpoons/defense satellites to protect England against nukes and as planetary power projection. International colonization spearheaded through English efforts and benefiting England alone. Resource acquisition through alien tech facilitating shit like asteroid mining and hydrogen harvesting. Intelligence superiority through Ring or Alien electronic warfare or communications tech.

    You have an Orange Lantern with seemingly few, if any issues maintaining a Ring charge.

    And so on and so on. Ectera, ectera.

    That robs the story of conflict, and leaves any confrontation or sense of atmosphere with the inevitable sense of British victory feeling again, like a complete power fantasy.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2022
  11. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    Was this inspired by the recent Home For Infinite Losers episode?
     
  12. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    Thank you, corrected.
    Not sure. Free travel for any citizen of the Empire was a policy in living memory. On the other hand, forced decolonisation post GWI means that there's no large group of people looking to move to Britain. I suppose that some French people might prefer Britain to living under German rule. Mass tourism hasn't really become a thing in this timeline yet.
    Yes. While they could make a for-export version of consumer electronics, that's just asking for it to be copied. This SI wants to avoid all competition. And the great thing about living on an island is that it's relatively easy to police the borders.
    Do you mean British? Ireland was separated but England, Wales and Scotland are still together.

    Some colonies were occupied by victorious Germany or America, but for the most part yes.
    They're not allowed to. That's something both Germany and the US fear about communication satellites, but at the moment they need to send any messages between pro-Britain groups and the homeland via ship.
    No, they can't. Until the laser defence grid is complete, Germany can still swarm Britain with nuclear-armed bombers.
    Probably not. He's feeling better, but he's far too politically damaged to occupy high office again.
    Basically, he doesn't like the emergent international order enough to trust it with that sort of power but thinks that he can control Britain well enough to stop them doing anything too stupid.
    Ex-alien invasion fleet. But knowing that there's such a fleet under British control might provoke someone into restarting the war.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2022
  13. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    No.
    No. Having nukes does not protect you from nukes. To a country with nukes, nukes aren't scary. Anti-nukes are scary, because they take away your ability to threaten back.
     
  14. Duke Long

    Duke Long Know what you're doing yet?

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    That really seems like a misinterpretation on your part. I mean, obviously it is a power fantasy, but how does it come across as Britain having earned it? The SI complained multiple times in the first chapter of this timeline about how this version of Britain sucks and he’s only helping them because they’re less bad than the other options, plus they’re his home country.

    Also, I just think it’s pretty rude to think that Zoat is so lacking in self-awareness that he’d write as if Britain had a right to this success when their success is coming from an absolute deus ex machina.
     
  15. moralrelativity

    moralrelativity Recovering pendant.

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    Yeah, I assumed it was a phase 2 or 3 or 4; once everything off-planet is ready. IMO there's no way Paul leaves Earth dis-united when there's an alien fleet on the way.
     
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  16. Windona

    Windona Beetle Queen of Crackshipping

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    Being the source of a defeated nation's sudden advancement would give Paul a lot of political clout and leeway. Sort of like how FDR is fondly remembered in American history. And that clout can be used to change British society into something he likes; if people associate a more fair order with success, then they're more likely to adopt that outlook. (...Since I'm not familiar with Southern Victory, what is the state of Alan Turing? I can see Paul intervening to make sure Turing is one of the brightest minds working on technology and not going to get chemically castrated)
     
  17. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    I don't think he's mentioned. France went full Nazi during GWII but Britain was specifically noted as not having done that. Thing is, I'm not really sure whether the SI would have the breath of influence to get the relevant pieces of legislation changed.
     
  18. Windona

    Windona Beetle Queen of Crackshipping

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    Fair enough, I was just assuming an 'I need this person on my team and they get leeway because of that' but if his major accomplishments IRL weren't enough to prevent that then I see the issue.
     
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  19. Clell65619

    Clell65619 Making the rounds.

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    To a country with nukes, nukes are fucking terrifying.

    I spent the first half of my adulthood deploying and sleeping between the things what go BOOM! To a man (no women on the subs in my day) we were terrified of the things, and scared shitless throughout the (thankfully few) times we got close to launch.

    Perhaps, the political idiots who run things aren't frightened of nuclear weapons, but they are, as I said, idiots.

    Anti-Nukes on the other hand were generally viewed by those of us on the wet and pointy end as great ideas. When Reagan started talking his 'Star Wars Initiative' we had hope that someone had made the damned things obsolete.

    Then we got a look at the physics behind the proposals. It wasn't going to work, ever. The kinetic kill packages required far too much computer time and uninterrupted tracking to be reliable. Then some bright boy decided to pack some Mylar balloons along with the actual REVs and tracking became almost impossible.

    Hell, even during the tests, with perfect conditions, the kinetic kill weapons only hit about a third of their targets.

    And the Energy weapons? Good lord, the pie in the sky tech those bastards required. Sure, let's light off a fusion bomb in orbit to fire the pumped laser once. Sure hope the EMP isn't inconvenient.
     
  20. Galler

    Galler Know what you're doing yet?

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    Can you elaborate on what the general population thinks of the SI, for those in and out of the UK's boarder?

    In this update he states that he is the reason they turned to the stars, but for the general populace that don't know they have alien tech, what do they think of him and of that decision?
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2022
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  21. hkim

    hkim Know what you're doing yet?

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    Also for anyone complaining this story is a British power fantasy without much chance of the Brits losing-

    Have.. have you not read the previous updates?
     
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  22. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    He is a very big deal.

    Britain was on the losing side for the second time in twenty years. Not quite as bad as that but still pretty bad, they found out that two out of three of their allies were systematically murdering large portions of their population and the people on the other side of the war are broadcasting the evidence. There is a lot of damage to the county from German bombing and they're going to be expected to pay the people who beat them for the privileged of not being bombed more.

    Then this guy comes along and offers the government a fix to all their problems. Once it's confirmed that he actually can do that, he becomes a very big deal to the ruling class. And because they don't want to be hung from lamp posts by a socialist revolution, they run a huge propaganda campaign emphasising this new direction of public policy. And when the German Empire tries to go back on the gold standard and then a few months later the value of gold collapses because someone paid their war debts in metal, and when Britain starts producing better technology than anywhere else in the world, the propaganda is coming true.

    However, the religion of Muad'Dib is not Muad'Dib. People are being told what they want to hear to stave off social unrest. Even with the technology he stole, changing the way a country works isn't easy. And while the German Empire have confirmed for themselves that Britain is disarming, they're not happy about the way it's transforming itself while they're stuck occupying hostile territory.
     
  23. hance1986

    hance1986 A pitiful excuse for a man.

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    It would also help that Paul Talwyn is a younger face in the government not attached to previous wartime decisions and agreements.

    What is Talwyn's official job title, given that he can meet with a top American official? A young and cultured voice selling Britain on space as opposed to a new war, and given the huge propaganda drive for this new space initiative, publicly Paul might have some boring Undersecretary title or something with a more well known name leading the Space Ministry to distract from Paul actually being the Shadow Broker, so to speak.

    I imagine both the Americans and Germans are bothered because they have little to go on where Paul Talwyn came from. I'm sure the British government fabricated a history and pictures but they probably don't really care. Paul could be Arthur returned to the government, just that he has provided a way out.

    Also, has Paul met the Queen? I'd like to see something about that and her thoughts on Earth isolation for Britain. The Queen might be if everything else failed....
     
  24. Windona

    Windona Beetle Queen of Crackshipping

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    Unrelated, but anyone know what chapter(s) are on Amazonian culture, especially regarding male Amazons and the like? I'm talking to a friend about Amazon worldbuilding and they might find it interesting
     
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  25. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    Not really. 'What did you do in the war' was put on a poster for a reason. Not being able to give an answer would give most British people reason to dislike him.
    Chairman and Chief Executive of Black Arrow, which is on paper a private business.
    King Edward is probably married, but I don't think the Queen's name is given in the books. Almost certainly not Wallis Simpson.
    Homecoming.
     
  26. LollipoPReapeR

    LollipoPReapeR Versed in the lewd.

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    So currently still catching up. I’m at the bit where the fake!Lawyer Nylor Truggs tries to steal OL’s ring.

    My main question so far is, why hasn’t main timeline MC tried to get any non-lantern enhancements yet? I know renegade MC is a bit of an asshole and also a bit immoral, but main timeline MC was always trying to get Artemis and Robin to drink the super soldier serum, so why hasn’t he drunk it himself? I just don’t see any reason not to… Especially when he seems to run out of charge or lose his lantern powers every few episodes.

    Also reading through story only thread since lack of threadmarks in original threads was quite annoying. So I might have missed the comments discussing this kind of thing.
     
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  27. Duke Long

    Duke Long Know what you're doing yet?

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    I think it must be mentioned only briefly or something, because I missed it too, but apparently it was explained at some point that Paul’s non-standard (and initially non-existent) soul prevents him from benefitting from most enhancement methods. The ones he could benefit from, like venom buster, had side effects he wasn’t willing to accept.
     
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  28. LollipoPReapeR

    LollipoPReapeR Versed in the lewd.

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    Huh? Then now did renegade!Paul do it then? Also how does the soul affect his physical body? I thought it was only problematic with magic stuff?
     
  29. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    Mostly, by not caring about the side effects.
    They work using magical mechanisms. He doesn't have the right plugs.
     
  30. LollipoPReapeR

    LollipoPReapeR Versed in the lewd.

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    So at the point in story I’m in, it’s been confirmed he’s now got a proto/pseudo soul and he is no longer vulnerable to magic. Is this still not good enough for the Danner formula?
     
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