With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Agumentic]

Not that I don't understand Paul's hesitance in giving Bruceman basically absolute legal power but I'm really struggling to see this as such an emergency as Anarky put it.

Hell, Nabu already did the "imprisoning people with no due process" and the League didn't exactly give much of a shit. This just feels like a formality ratifying that the League will operate however they want, as they always have.

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"We can do whatever we want" based on societal acceptance of the legitimacy of the righteous is different from "we can do whatever we want" enshrined in law.

 

[Mr Zoat]

I thought he already changed his name to Red Star because an analysis found people liked that name better?

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'Justice League'?
'of'

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Thank you, corrected.

"We can do whatever we want" based on societal acceptance of the legitimacy of the righteous is different from "we can do whatever we want" enshrined in law.

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View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq6nBigMnlg

 

[BR549]

Isn't all of this stuff that the Justice League already does or would do if the situation asked for it? It feels like just putting it on paper, so everyone knows that the League actually does that kind of stuff if or when needed, rather than it happening anyway but in secret or close to secretly.

In fact, wouldn't the Illustres do this kind of stuff as well? Am I missing something?

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As mentioned, there's a big difference between things being de facto and things being de jure. The act of putting it on paper is a huge escalation from "we'll do it quietly".

In a nutshell: it's the difference between the Justice League and the Justice Lords.

 

[Wheenesss]

As mentioned, there's a big difference between things being de facto and things being de jure. The act of putting it on paper is a huge escalation from "we'll do it quietly".

In a nutshell: it's the difference between the Justice League and the Justice Lords.

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Interestingly, Paul never met the Earth 50 Justice Lords. Only Renegrayven did. Paul met the proper Earth 12 Justice League when he and Zatanna were messing around on Earth -14.

Maybe it's time to change that?

 

[Steelplaza]

There have been a lot of DC alternate universes where Superman leads the Justice League in taking over the world, but none that I can recall where Batman is the instigator. In fact Batman is usually either a resister or the first to be talked down and turn on the new order.

In which case Zoat is breaking new ground, good show. We know Batman was greatly affected by his experience with both the anti-life and the brain alterations. We know that since then he's been using a fear power ring completely unsupervised and that those can affect the mind. We know that these days Batman and Mr. Atom (who would be the last person to oppose taking over the world) have been running the League, with everyone going where they say to go and doing what they say needs done.

In retrospect the reason Batman told Paul not to talk about the Justice League taking over the world is he didn't want OL warning anyone. Look how slick he's been. Even many readers in this thread are going, "Oh but is it really so unreasonable?" Well let me ask a question, who is "the Justice League"? Is anyone the Justice League gives an order to acting under the Justice League's authority? Superman can change any zoning law he wants is one thing. Batman appoints ten thousand people as Justice League associates to go out and change zoning laws is another.

And to an extent this is Paul's fault. He knows what power rings can do to people. He's had to corral many OL corps members driven mad by their rings. But out of guilt he couldn't bring himself to check on Batman or at least be forceful in demanding someone else check on him. A very understandable and human mistake but a mistake.

Heh. It's funny. Batman always resists personal empowerment so hard, won't take physical enhancement and will only use power armor when necessary. Here he finally took up a power ring, and who knows how dangerous it has made him. The fact that he hasn't been showy with it just means he's been using it to do all the subtle things a power ring can do.

 

[Wheenesss]

.... Also which Supergirl is Supergirl III?

1 is Silver Age Kara, 2 is Noriel/Linda Danvers, 3 is the Local Earth 16 Kara if I understand it correctly? I thought Earth 16 Kara wasn't interested in being a superhero?

 

[Ngamer11]

.... Also which Supergirl is Supergirl III?

1 is Silver Age Kara, 2 is Noriel/Linda Danvers, 3 is the Local Earth 16 Kara if I understand it correctly? I thought Earth 16 Kara wasn't interested in being a superhero?

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Kara Zor-El is Supergirl I. Noriel/Linda Danvers is Supergirl II. Kara Zor-L is Supergirl III. It's based on who showed up first.

 

[Darko]

Kara Zor-El is Supergirl I. Noriel/Linda Danvers is Supergirl II. Kara Zor-L is Supergirl III. It's based on who showed up first.

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They really need to get some new names.

Maybe Angelfire for Noriel.

 

[xSieg]

"We can do whatever we want" based on societal acceptance of the legitimacy of the righteous is different from "we can do whatever we want" enshrined in law.

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I mean, yeah, if you're talking about governance.

The League were given de facto legal powers because no one is willing to prosecute them for their illegal good deeds, right? Their good PR comes from the fact that the government organizations know that they're righteous face punchers foremost and not political agents. So Batman making a powergrab using that reputation is scummy and should in fact be noted, but I don't really feel like it's urgent.

Let's say that this passes and the League is given de jure powers now. What does that actually change, in practical terms, for Batman? If he were to perhaps imprison someone without a trial he wouldn't need to suffer government reprisal... or maybe he could use it to covertly subvert his political opponents in various countries by vanishing them without due process. But these were all things he could in fact do with no political power whatsoever had he wanted to. What could the UN do to stop it? Storm the watchtower? They'd need to rely on the Justice League to stop a rogue JL member just the same, who are all righteous face punchers and not restricted by a new legal charter.

The only advantage I can kind of see Batman having with real authority on the JL is maybe pulling the official GLs off him because of the non-interference clause on the rings? Everything else is basically worthless because the League is the only political organization that has any hope of stopping him in any way. And they can't read, in general.

 

[hkim]

Anyone else think this could lead to an Eros omake set after Goo ends?

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My thoughts were more like "huh, yet another woman Paul has more chemistry with than Jade" tbh. iirc Squire isn't a literal teenager in this continuity too?

 

[Mr Zoat]

My thoughts were more like "huh, yet another woman Paul has more chemistry with than Jade" tbh. iirc Squire isn't a literal teenager in this continuity too?

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Squire is a literal teenager in this continuity too.

 

[PDV]

It doesn't even look cool! Absolutely no thought was put into that HQ.

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Oh, it gets worse. This is supposedly in Chicago. There are no suspension bridges in Chicago except a single-cable pedestrian bridge, and there isn't even anywhere you could put one over water. The river isn't wide enough (many bridges but almost everything is a steel truss drawbridge) and crossing Lake Michigan is both beyond human engineering capabilities and bloody stupid to try even if it's within superhuman capabilities.

The only place to put a suspension bridge in Chicago would be as an overpass.

 

[Jirachi]

27th August 2012
00:19 GMT

"Four Green, one Blue, one Violet and one-" I spread my arms slightly. "-Orange. In this parallel; I've met alternate versions of myself with every colour."

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Did he actually meet a violet lantern version? I think he just sort of saw that there was some violet rings at the krona fight, but at least on screen don't think he ever stopped and talked to one.

10th July 2013
06:32 GMT

That is not the legislation that was in the draft paper.

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Do wonder how much this is a mess that arose from the sapient rights act and the like - if there's anyone justifying this I'd have to assume it's because they want to make sure that e.g. demons are emphatically dealt with and that if they need for everyone to not have rights to do that before the league then they have to do that.
It's also just... goodness. Not having rules for regaining regularity seems silly, and frankly by now I do think that it'd likely be practical enough to stop them from doing torturey things given the acessibility of magic and/or telepathic options.
I get the appeal of this, but at the very least there should be some sort of review system or more integration - even just some data sharing could really help.
And the league is still run on the unamity model, right? I can't imagine that Doctor Mist is exactly okay with this.
Incidentally, I wonder if the forge gods can work with Dilusteel - feels like there ought to be a lot of things possible with that.

 

[Steelplaza]

I can't imagine that Doctor Mist is exactly okay with this.

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I fully expect Mist to resign in protest, but part of the cleverness of Batman's scheme is that it can't be blocked by the unanimity rules because it's not something that the League is doing. It's the governments of the world that are passing this legislation. The League could vote, "we don't think that the governments should pass these bills" and so what, they do it anyway.

Anyway, this is Zoat trying to write the scheme of a person much smarter than he the author is, so I have a lot of allowance for, "Batman thought of that and figured out how to deal with it".

 

[Vaermina]

The moment this passes is the moment the Brother Eye robots come out and start enforcing things.

 

[Mr Zoat]

And the league is still run on the unamity model, right? I can't imagine that Doctor Mist is exactly okay with this.

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Batman got responsibility for overseeing this. Doctor Mist might say that he's unhappy, but the reason he joined the League is still valid. If anything it's more so.

 

[hkim]

Squire is a literal teenager in this continuity too.

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I guess that is the price of admission for a *checks notes* "Teen Titans" SI fic?

tx Zoat as always

 

[NightmareWarden]

My thoughts were more like "huh, yet another woman Paul has more chemistry with than Jade" tbh. iirc Squire isn't a literal teenager in this continuity too?

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They're too similar at their cores, while their respective life experiences don't really lend themselves towards appreciating each other beyond polite questions. Whenever they have a professional or ethical disagreement, the fight would possess enough heat and burns to lead lingering unpleasantness afterwards. I could see her becoming as close to some variant Paul as Alan and Kon are in this timeline… but not as a romantic partner.

Hmm. God I'd love to see some time travel situation fling her into the past with a younger but not full-on rookie Wonder Woman. Allies, but not partners. Butting heads. Squire is just better version of Oracle in my book.

 

[Prince Charon]

I didn't think we'd see this gag again. I'm glad this can still happen and will eventually happen again in the future.

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Huh. How often have we seen this gag (not counting The Eyes, just the ones where he shows up like this)?

 

[Ngamer11]

Huh. How often have we seen this gag (not counting The Eyes, just the ones where he shows up like this)?

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The only other time I remember him teleporting to a woman in the bathroom was when he was talking to Xalitan's lover.

 

[NightmareWarden]

Heh. Okay, lack of mental clarity; that was on me. Who on my team?

Squire, Canis Minor, Red Star, Osiris, Star Sapphire and New Supergirl.

Huh. I'd have thought that Supergirl III would be asleep by now. But I don't think that she'd have any useful input anyway. Canis Minor…

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Yes, Zoat literally linked a panel from that story in her introduction. But I don't buy it. She just has too many ready excuses, too many deflections, and I remind you there's still no explanation for what she's doing here. No one has ever really questioned her. I think the recent "Arion returns" arc shows Zoat isn't averse to doing a fakeout.

Silver Age Kara acts like someone acting out a parody of the Silver Age, and there are these hints that she's laughing at everyone somewhere behind the act.

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I guess you are right. My first thought we she shrugged off the Kryptonite was that she was a robot of some kind, but then I looked up where that panel came from and thought well that makes sense.

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Hm hmm.

 

[Mr Zoat]

10th July 2013
06:39 GMT

"…first time she's brought anyone 'round from America." Missus Hutchinson is washing the breakfast cutlery, having rejected my offer to do it for her. "You here for anything special?"

"In point of fact, this is more me dropping in unannounced. I wanted her input on-." Huh. "Actually, have you been keeping up with what's going on in parliament?"

She rolls her eyes. "Lot of use they've been."

"It's just that there's a piece of legislation going through that I'm a bit worried about, and I was wondering if you were aware of it?"

"I doubt it. What's it about?"

"Well, basically, giving the Justice League extraordinary authority to control anything they want in order to fix human civilisation."

"Oh. What's wrong with that?"

"I just… I wouldn't be comfortable having that much power. And I'm not really all that comfortable with anyone else having it, either."

She thinks for a moment, frowning. "Here, didn't you spin the moon around a few years ago?"

"Yes. That-. I did. You'd be surprised how few people bring that up."

"And you're worried about the Justice League getting too much power? More than they have already?"

"Sort of-. I like to think of the Justice League as a nice-to-have thing. I don't like the idea that our entire civilisation is carried on the backs of two dozen people. Like… We're not really doing anything that other people couldn't do, we're just going it a bit faster."

"Didn't I read something about stopping some Indian terrorists from using stolen nuclear weapons a little while ago?"

"Yes. Yes, that happened. They didn't actually have.. that many, and they didn't have the technical capacity to launch them on missiles, but they did have them."

"And the Indian government couldn't stop them?"

"Not-. Not as quickly."

"Well there you are, then. They are essential. Unless you think some nutters setting off nuclear bombs is just normal."

"I mean… Yes, Kobra did escalate to that point eventually, but that was after decades of the police and the military not hunting them down."

"I'm sure they were trying."

"But if they'd been better resourced then they might have succeeded. And the League didn't stop them until after the first fusion bomb went off."

"The police didn't stop them at all."

I nod, taking a moment to get my thoughts in order. "So… Basically… You wouldn't have a problem with the Justice League having unlimited authority to do anything?"

"No, not really. I think they can be trusted. And I don't think anyone could really stop Superman anyway."

"I-. Could-." Not the point. "But just because they're well intentioned, that doesn't mean that they know everything, or have the best ideas about everything."

"It's not permanent, is it?"

"It could all be revoked with another act of parliament. In Britain, anyway. That's the beauty of the Westminster system; there's no limit on parliamentary sovereignty."

"Apart from the European Union."

"No, according to British law, everything they say can be ignored and overridden. It's not, because of the other consequences of doing that, but sovereignty rests in parliament. Until… This law goes through, then it'll effectively rest with Batman and Mister Atom."

She frowns. "Who's Mister Atom?"

I generate an illustrative construct. "This chap. He joined officially after we got rid of the Anti-Life. He's a robot who wants to take over the world."

"What does he want to do that for?"

"Because he thinks that he should because he's very strong and clever and he has a bit of trouble with the idea that those aren't the only determining factors. But he was pretty much immune to the Anti-Life and he's also… Very good at evaluating macro-level factors and monitoring the wide scale effects of our work."

"Oh. That sounds good."

"He also struggles to comprehend humans and humanity."

"Of course he does. It's only natural, isn't it? He's a robot."

"Yes, but it's a bit of a problem when he's got total authority to decide, for example, to demolish the Downs because they create inefficiencies in the shape of farmland."

"Do they?"

"Yes. Large flat fields are preferable to hilly terrain in almost all circumstances, and the thin soil covering chalk of the Downs is pretty bad for growing things."

"He can just… Get rid of hills?"

"Not easily. He'd need the help of a couple of other League members. But a hill is just a piece of rock or earth. And sufficiently powerful magician could remove one. This is what I'm talking about. It's not just about getting rid of a few legal impediments to ensuring a full recovery of the planet. It's giving all of them the right to do anything."

"And we can't put it back afterwards."

"Not as it was."

"Oh. I'd have to think about that."

There are footsteps on the stairs, and then Beryl appears in full costume. "Think about what, Mum?"

"Apparently, we're giving the Justice League control of everything."

"Not quite everything, Mum. Batman's trying to arrange things so that we won't get hit quite as hard if something like this happens again. We'll probably end up doing a bit more farming in Britain but that's-." She looks at me. "That's why you're here. That's not what it says."

I shake my head. "I've got the updated wording. For some reason the world's being a little more generous, and I want you and Osiris to go through it to make sure that I'm not missing something before I go and talk to him about it. Oh, and… I was hoping to get your input on Dawn's situation."

She regards me levelly. "And you lost your telephone so you couldn't phone ahead. Hm?"

"No, sorry, that was my mistake. I don't see exactly what's at the other end, and I didn't think to.. scan…"

"Don't do it again." I nod as she thinks. "Okay. I've been wondering what Greater Kahndaq is like right now. Let's go."

 

[Darko]

She thinks for a moment, frowning. "Here, didn't you spin the moon around a few years ago?"

"Yes. That-. I did. You'd be surprised how few people bring that up

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Well there was the cake thing.

Plus the world may not have wanted to think about how close they could have come to some insane guy crashing the moon into the Earth.

earth. And sufficiently powerful magician could remove one

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"Any sufficiently"