With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Darko]

I'm amused by the idea that the shameful thing Londo's grandfather did during the occupation which G'Kar used to blackmail him was 'got behind on his beatings quota' or 'was actually nice to the help

Click to shrink...

Londo: He-he actually refused to beat them when they displeased him! Allowed them time to rest after they worked! Even helped them when they were moving some materials in the compound! What sort of proud Centauri does that?!

 

[boo600]

https://youtu.be/tF27OtzAslY

"They didn't wake the dragon. They broke into his cave, stole his gold, ate his food, and pissed on his leg. Then Earth paid the price in full."

If I'm reading this right, humanity only survived because the Minbari found that human souls are Minbari souls. Which is to say, for religious reasons, they decided to spare humanity.

While they may want peace, given that humanity never actually had a chance at fighting them… well, it would be nice if the people in charge worked to make sure they didn't piss the Minbari off again, but they just decided that they were invincible, didn't they?

 

[Darko]

but they just decided that they were invincible, didn't they?

Click to shrink...

Yeah.

Humanity in the Babylon 5 setting isn't the intelligent and insightful version from Star Trek, so they are prone to doing a lot of stupid things.

Heck, in the RPG books about the Vorlons and Shadows, Justin, a high ranking Shadow agent, mentions that one of the reasons he signed up with the Shadows was because he saw that the Minbari surrender made humanity think that they were somehow now big boys on the galactic scene, and Justin wanted to show them how stupid that is.

 

[Old Knife]

I for one will enjoy psycorps fighting OL.

 

[Jankl]

Minbari found that human souls are Minbari souls.

Click to shrink...

Spoiler: Minbari souls.

I thought that was because Minbari have Valen's/Sinclair's DNA and even when he turned himself into a Minbari he still has some human DNA left. Not that Minbari souls are litteraly reborn in human bodies. I thought that is just how the Minbari interpreted it. I could be completely wrong of course.

 

[Darko]

Spoiler: Minbari souls.

I thought that was because Minbari have Valen's/Sinclair's DNA and even when he turned himself into a Minbari he still has some human DNA left. Not that Minbari souls are litteraly reborn in human bodies. I thought that is just how the Minbari interpreted it. I could be completely wrong of course.

Click to shrink...

Nope, you're right.

 

[Mr Zoat]

I always thought that the minbari just completely misunderstood what the triluminary glowing actually meant.

 

[hkim]

I for one will enjoy psycorps fighting OL.

Click to shrink...

Bester? I barely know 'er!

 

[Ct613hulu]

Wait does she really have that much trouble understanding how bad attempted genocide is? Is this some Minbari cultural thing?

Click to shrink...

My understanding of the Minbari's history is that their only other wars would have been ones with races fully converted / enslaved by the Shadows. These would have been fought to the point of de facto Genocide with considerably greater justification.

Their society is also greatly fractured and someone who is not in the Warrior Caste would have likely never had reason to consider the morality of war or what constitutes a war crime.

 

[Vaermina]

Mayan is still standing there, just taking in the glares. I think she's genuinely surprised, though I'm not at all sure why. I walk up to her, smile and nod at the audience, grab her around the waist and lever her into a nearby chair.

She stares at me in shock as I sit down opposite her, and then looks down and wriggles herself to defray stress.

I lean a little closer. "Sorry if that violates propriety-"

Her head comes back up. "Yes. It did."

Click to shrink...

He's totally flirting with her.

Black uniform, Psi Corps insignia.

Looking at me.

Click to shrink...

Consequences!

The Shadowsouled.

Click to shrink...

Are from the RPG and not canon to Mr Zoat's version of things.

 

[BoML]

I always thought that the minbari just completely misunderstood what the triluminary glowing actually meant.

Click to shrink...

I wouldn't even be surprised. However, I believe Dukhat definitely knew what it meant.

Spoiler: Spoiler to later seasons of B5

The glow told Dukhat that Delenn was a "Child of Valen", thus a descendant of Valen himself. Even if that bloodline was a thousand years old.

I believe there were a few other members of the Grey Council who knew, them being surprised wouldn't make sense otherwise.

 

[boo600]

Yeah.

Humanity in the Babylon 5 setting isn't the intelligent and insightful version from Star Trek, so they are prone to doing a lot of stupid things.

Heck, in the RPG books about the Vorlons and Shadows, Justin, a high ranking Shadow agent, mentions that one of the reasons he signed up with the Shadows was because he saw that the Minbari surrender made humanity think that they were somehow now big boys on the galactic scene, and Justin wanted to show them how stupid that is.

Click to shrink...

…to be entirely fair to BB5 humanity, they did the stupidest thing possible and were saved by plot armor at the last second. I suppose they took it as a sign they're Batman?

 

[Vaermina]

…to be entirely fair to BB5 humanity, they did the stupidest thing possible and were saved by plot armor at the last second. I suppose they took it as a sign they're Batman?

Click to shrink...

I get the feeling you don't know the exact events of "In The Beginning".

Because that encounter was a lot more equal sided then normally portrayed, it wasn't "Minbari open gun ports, humans fire on them." it was "Minbari approach with open gun ports, humans get antsy and try to open communications, Minbari refuse to respond to the communications scan the humans ship and their scanners are so advanced they damage the human ship, humans think it's an attack and open fire".

The whole thing was a tragic series of mistakes from both sides.

 

[teikan]

We don't question Pinkie Pie. Bad things happen.

Click to shrink...

Idiots. Pinkie's instincts are reproducible, it's science. After this, it's impossible to perceive Twalight as a competent scientist.


Sometimes the "heroic" or "villain" plot lines are so uninteresting that I simply abandon the fanfic for a couple of months or years. Fight scenes, especially, often spark zero interest in me. I'm not interested in reading a simple text action game without interesting interactions and when it's obvious that there are no risks and nothing bad will happen.

 

[Mr Zoat]

I wouldn't even be surprised. However, I believe Dukhat definitely knew what it meant.

Spoiler: Spoiler to later seasons of B5

The glow told Dukhat that Delenn was a "Child of Valen", thus a descendant of Valen himself. Even if that bloodline was a thousand years old.

I believe there were a few other members of the Grey Council who knew, them being surprised wouldn't make sense otherwise.

Click to shrink...

I meant with regard to Sinclair, because Dukhat never met him and Sinclair certainly wasn't a descendant of Valen.

 

[Tzeentch]

I always thought that the minbari just completely misunderstood what the triluminary glowing actually meant.

Click to shrink...

There's no reason why BOTH theories for it glowing can't be true, Humans and Minbari exchanging souls, AND Minbari having human D.N.A.

There IS a species that has the tech to capture the consciousness of a departed individual, so shouldn't the Minbari, (who are over a thousand years ahead of most of the current races except the First Ones), have the tech to study the "non-localized phenomena" of the Soul, and it's relationship with the corporeal/material.

 

[GhostKing 666]

My understanding of the Minbari's history is that their only other wars would have been ones with races fully converted / enslaved by the Shadows. These would have been fought to the point of de facto Genocide with considerably greater justification.

Click to shrink...

Nope. In fact the last war the Minbari fought was only a few centuries ago. Back when the Centauri were first starting to expand and forge their empire, they had an early rival called the Garmak who were just as aggressive and expansionist as the Centauri. Then the Garmak made the mistake of provoking the Minbari, who went and slaughtered their navy in a bunch of completely one-sided fights while leaving the Garmak colonies alone.

It was the Centauri watching what happened to the Garmak(even as they had no problems conquering and enslaving the now defenseless Garmak) that first gave the Centauri their old phobia about provoking the Minbari. They learned first-hand there that there is always a bigger fish.

The reason the Minbari went genocidal on Humanity, is because Jankowski killed Dukhat. Dukhat was basically the most respected and beloved leader amongst all three castes that the Minbari had had since Valen. Jankowski might as well have gone up and shot Muhammad in the streets, which is why the Minbari were calling it a holy war until the one-sided slaughter of it all became too much for some.

 

[Vaermina]

The reason the Minbari went genocidal on Humanity, is because Jankowski killed Dukhat. Dukhat was basically the most respected and beloved leader amongst all three castes that the Minbari had had since Valen. Jankowski might as well have gone up and shot Muhammad in the streets, which is why the Minbari were calling it a holy war until the one-sided slaughter of it all became too much for some.

Click to shrink...

Heck, on it's own that wouldn't even have been enough.

The actual vote on the subject was split, with Delenn being the deciding vote, and if Dukhat hadn't functionally been Delenn's father she wouldn't have given in to her grief and voted for war.

One of the big stories in Babylon 5 is how everything most of what Delenn does with humans is basically penance for that mistake.

 

[Darko]

I always thought that the minbari just completely misunderstood what the triluminary glowing actually meant.

Click to shrink...

Same.

I just assumed that they considered it sacred, so they never bothered to study it and never found out it was basically a DNA scanner.

Consequences!

Click to shrink...

Fortunately, he's unlikely to face any.

Are from the RPG and not canon to Mr Zoat's version of things.

Click to shrink...

You talking about what is and isn't canon is just hilarious.

so shouldn't the Minbari, (who are over a thousand years ahead of most of the current races except the First Ones), have the tech to study the "non-localized phenomena" of the Soul, and it's relationship with the corporeal/material.

Click to shrink...

Ehh, not necessarily.

The Minbari are advanced, but they're not the most advanced race.

The Soul Hunters were created by a First One race called the Mindriders.

It's highly likely that the Soul Hunters are more advanced than Minbari, or at least have abilities that help them.

Plus, the Minbari may consider trying to study the soul through scientific methods to be heretical.

 

[Vaermina]

Fortunately, he's unlikely to face any.

Click to shrink...

That depends entirely on what Mr Zoat decides to do.

You talking about what is and isn't canon is just hilarious.

Click to shrink...

I mean... At this point I've consistently been right about various Babylon 5 things, so not really.

 

[Darko]

I mean... At this point I've consistently been right about various Babylon 5 things, so not really

Click to shrink...

Except you're almost always wrong about what's happening in the story.

 

[BR549]

If I'm reading this right, humanity only survived because the Minbari found that human souls are Minbari souls. Which is to say, for religious reasons, they decided to spare humanity.

While they may want peace, given that humanity never actually had a chance at fighting them… well, it would be nice if the people in charge worked to make sure they didn't piss the Minbari off again, but they just decided that they were invincible, didn't they?

Click to shrink...

The important thing to remember is that while that was the case (or was at least, as discussion muses, what the Minbari told themselves, anyway...), this was something they never told any non-Minbari.

So from the humans' perspective, the entire Minbari fleet that had been curbstomping them suddenly and abruptly ceased fire without any explanation - and then surrendered to the last ship while refusing to elaborate.

Given that utter and complete lack of explanation, some degree of belief in divine providence (which could easily metastasize to a divine mandate), and/or 'we were simply determined enough we made them give up', can perhaps be excused among the hoi polli.

As for the generals and admirals functionally returning to the post-Dilgar-War 'Victory Disease', they have no excuse other than that Londo was absolutely right about them.

I meant with regard to Sinclair, because Dukhat never met him and Sinclair certainly wasn't a descendant of Valen.

Click to shrink...

Does actually being someone make you technically a descendant of someone, or technically their ancestor? Or both at the same time? And how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

The reason the Minbari went genocidal on Humanity, is because Jankowski killed Dukhat. Dukhat was basically the most respected and beloved leader amongst all three castes that the Minbari had had since Valen. Jankowski might as well have gone up and shot Muhammad in the streets, which is why the Minbari were calling it a holy war until the one-sided slaughter of it all became too much for some.

Click to shrink...

The RPG canon bit mentioned earlier would, if taken as canon canon, make this interpretation somewhat dubious, but I have seen a number of interpretations as well that Delenn's "kill them all!" was made while, understandably, rather...upset at her mentor's death, and that later she considered that that might have been a bit hasty - but by that point the avalanche had already begun...

 

[Darko]

this was something they never told any non-Minbari.

Click to shrink...

Heck, most Minbari didn't know why they stopped.

And how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Click to shrink...

Just one.

Aside from that single one, most angels can't dance.

 

[GhostKing 666]

As for the generals and admirals functionally returning to the post-Dilgar-War 'Victory Disease', they have no excuse other than that Londo was absolutely right about them.

Click to shrink...

Every surviving officer knew damn well where they stood compared to the Minbari. Which is the caveat, surviving officer.

After the Minbari War, Earth Force was gutted. The military that fought and defeated the Dilgar was gone, and Earth Force had to train and employ inexperience new blood to fill in the ranks.

This was actually shown during the EA Civil War. Most of the actual veterans sided with Sheridan, Clark's side was mostly staffed by people who joined up after the Minbari War and who lacked the personal experience to know better(to say nothing of Clark's personal platform of "Fuck the aliens", which after the Minbari War and Earth being hung up high and dry by most of their supposed "allies"(the Drazi at least sent a fleet, but it disappeared in hyperspace and was never seen again) and it's not hard to see why xenophobia found fertile soil to grow).

 

[Mr Zoat]

8th April 2258
09:37 G.M.T. +1

An Asian man and a Nordic woman, both immaculately groomed with their hair locked in place.

"-that any protest I could have made would have changed anything."

I turn back to Mayan. "You're almost certainly right, but we'd have appreciated you trying. It would have showed that you were against it in a way that would actually have cost you something, and thus seemed genuine."

I hear the footsteps as the Psi Cops come closer.

"Why would that matter for building a relationship now?"

"Trust requires dependability. Being angry because your head of state dies makes perfect sense, though I will emphasise that the Earth Alliance has a president who at any given time will be unpopular with at least half of the population and if he dies it's really not that big a deal." She looks mildly appalled. "Launching a jihad to destroy the species responsible seems like a massive overreaction, even if he was a really great guy. That makes no sense to us."

"But surely the government of the Earth Alliance would respond if your president was murdered?"

"Yes. We'd want the guilty parties handed over for trial. If the guilty party refused without a very good reason we might retaliate, or declare war, but I can't think of a situation where the goal would be to exterminate their species. And then… Stopping. You given any thought to Beard Theory?"

"I do not think it would be enough to convince our leaders."

"Then ten years later we've got no idea why the Minbari Federation called it off. It's like sitting next to an old sea mine; we've got no idea what might set you off and no idea how to defuse you."

"'Beard Theory'?"

The male Psi Cop walks into my line of sight, a disarmingly friendly and curious expression on his face.

I smile back, nodding. "A tiny fraction of the male minbari-" Mayan gives the Psi Cop a look of profound disquiet. "-can grow beards, and the genetic sequences which make it possible are identical to the ones in humans. Minbari have a huge stigma against killing other minbari. My working theory is that someone working for the minbari government did a genetic analysis, realised that we have that in common, and called things off due to killing us now counting for their taboo against killing other minbari."

"Humans have a taboo against killing, too."

"Four hundred thousand murders on Earth last year alone. Do you know how many Minbar had?" He shakes his head. "Zero. You have to go back forty years before you can find one, and that was probably an accident, and the perpetrator appears to have killed himself immediately after checking that his victim was actually dead."

He considers that for a moment. "Is the beard thing widely known about?"

"No. But from what I've been told-" I gesture to Mayan, who is looking increasingly awkward. "-it would be unusual for the minbari government to actually tell people who didn't strictly need to know. The war would just be called off, and everyone would be expected to go along with it."

"I prefer to think-" Mayan is low-key glaring at me. "-that otherwise reasonable minbari came to regret the rash decisions they had taken in anger."

The Psi Cop smiles at her. "But.. this is something minbari might do?" He raises his eyebrow. "For real?"

"It is not… Wholly impossible. But as Matthew says, if it was so, that information would not have been shared. I would not know."

"'Beard Theory'. Hm." He nods to himself. "You should post that on the conspiracy boards, see what they make of it."

"I have enough crazy in my life, thank you." I glance at his partner, who is… Completely stone-faced. "Can I.. get you and your partner a coffee.?

His face goes back into 'polite professional' immediately. "Thank you, but no. We were hoping that you wouldn't mind answering a few questions for us."

"Am I under arrest?"

"No, sir."

"Then… Sure, you can ask. Would you like to sit down?"

He smiles, nods, and sits down next to Mayan. I half turn to look at his colleague. "Ah, your partner?"

He shakes his head and waves his right hand dismissively. "She's fine."

I frown, then shrug. From my reading, it seems like telepaths have a harder time keeping the thoughts of the people around them out of their heads when they're in close physical proximity. Maybe she has a headache?

"Right, well, what do you want to talk about?"

"We still have an investigation open on the disappearance of our colleague, Lyta Alexander. I understand that you spoke with her on the day she vanished?"

I nod. "Yes, that's correct. I… Already spoke to Babylon Five security about it… Are they not sharing?"

"No, they…" He shrugs. "They are, but she was our colleague. We all went to the same training schools… We just want to dot out Is and cross our Ts."

I frown. "Ah, sorry, this is probably a stupid question, but why would a P-Five go to Psi Cop training school? I thought you all had to be P-Twelve?"

"We do, but the initial training to control our abilities is the same."

"Ah." I nod. "Right."

"When you first met, did she seem agitated to you?"

I nod firmly. "Yes."

"Did she say 'why'?"

"She told me that she wasn't happy about being called back to Earth. I don't know if it was the inconvenience, or the fact that she resented being used for intelligence gathering…"

I raise my eyebrows slightly, and-. He shakes his head.

"Most species have minds that work within certain bounds. The more similar to ours they are, the less… Difficult it is making contact with them. I can read a centauri's mind -or…" He smiles at Mayan. "With beards or not, a minbari's mind- far more easily than I can a gaim's. We don't have any records for what happens when a human mind makes contact with a vorlon mind. We just wanted to be completely certain that there weren't any negative health consequences for her. And… When it comes to things that affect the mind, it's… It can't be voluntary, because when something goes wrong, it affects the telepath's judgement. It's a little uncomfortable, but it's better than getting a brain haemorrhage and not finding out about it until it's too late."

"Ah." Yes, that would make sense.

Anyone want it weigh in?

Plausible. / If it was standard procedure, why didn't the station personnel put her on the shuttle? / I think it's nice that they care about her.

The Psi Cop behind me takes a step backwards. The one-.

"I'm.. sorry, dreadfully rude of me. You obviously know who I am, but I didn't ask your name?"

"No, I-" He shakes his head. "-should have introduced myself. Zhang Li. And you're Matthew Underwood, and, ah..?"

He glances at Mayan.

She inclines her head. "Shaal Mayan."

"Pleased to make your acquaintance." He turns back to me. "Mister Underwood, it would help us a great deal if you would allow us to view your memories of your encounter with Miss Alexander. Anything at all that's… Still in your mind that you don't necessarily consciously recall, might give us a vital clue about her current location."

"Ah…" I shrug. "I don't have a problem with that, but I'll need you to sign a liability waver first."

He blinks. "Excuse me?"

"When I first met her, she did a light scan…" I raise my hands. "Not a problem, perfectly legitimate, a strange man walks up to you…" He nods. "Apparently, there's something about my mind that's very uncomfortable? Now, it might be that it affected her because she's only a P-Five… Or it might be that it scales with telepathic power, in which case, as a P-Twelve, it would be worse for you. And I don't want you to get a brain haemorrhage either. And I certainly don't want to be legally liable for it."

He nods slowly. "I'll need to talk to our lawyers, but I'm sure we can work something out. How long are you staying on Earth?"

I gesture to Mayan. "Mayan is doing a talk in a few days at the University of Zurich, so at least that long. After that, I don't really have any plans, but I've got a mail box on Babylon Five if you can't get hold of me."

"I'm sure I can get in touch before then." He stands, nodding to Mayan. "Enjoy your stay on Earth."

 

[BR549]

"Mister Underwood, it would help us a great deal if you would allow us to view your memories of your encounter with Miss Alexandria.

Click to shrink...

'Alexander'

Suprisingly reasonable. But then again, Psi Cops are good at putting up acts.
On the gripping hand, then again, not all of them are Alfred Bester. Some actually believe. The question is, what is Mr. Zhang's position?
And we did notice he didn't name his partner. I don't think Talia Winters' actual personality was a Psi Cop...

 

[Darko]

sitting next to a old sea mine;

Click to shrink...

"to an"

decisions they had taking in anger."

Click to shrink...

"taken"

mind- far more easily than I can gaim's.

Click to shrink...

"can a gaim's"

wrong, it affect the telepath's judgement. It's a little uncomfortable

Click to shrink...

"affects"

Anyone want it weigh in?"

Click to shrink...

"to weign in"

Remove the " at the end.

Plausible

Click to shrink...

But not the main reason.

If it was standard procedure, why didn't the station personnel put her on the shuttle

Click to shrink...

They don't know that much about the organization.

/ I think it's nice that they care about her

Click to shrink...

You poor, naive fool.

 

[Mr Zoat]

'Alexander'

Click to shrink...

Thank you, corrected.

And we did notice he didn't name his partner. I don't think Talia Winters' actual personality was a Psi Cop...

Click to shrink...

Talia's currently on Babylon 5.

"to an"
"taken"
"can a gaim's"
"affects"
"to weigh in"

Click to shrink...

Thank you, corrected.

 

[Yog]

Besides beards, there should be at least two other genetic sequences identical in humans and minbari: the one responsible for perceiving Vorlons as angels, and the one responsible for telepathy. Those might be one sequence, of course. But they should be identical, as they are artificial and introduced into population by Vorlons.

Beard theory is a fun one, as it is right, and could affect public perception.

On the chapter - what is affecting mr. Li's partner? She's obviously trying to read Matthew's mind covertly, but if the process was being repelled by either the ring, or his passengers, I would expect him to be notified. Unless one of the souls is a P-12+ telepath (plausible) who is doing the blocking and not sharing with others (also, admittedly, plausible)

 

[lancelot]

Talia's currently on Babylon 5.

Click to shrink...

Any plans on erasing that sleeper programming considering it's basically death of personality?