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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Discussion in 'Creative Writing' started by Mr Zoat, Jan 27, 2019.

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  1. Austin Pharos

    Austin Pharos Know what you're doing yet?

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    Speak for yourself. I find it interesting to hear other people's opinions and ideas. I wouldn't know what happened in the comics at all if people didn't discuss the time travel.
     
  2. Agent Orange

    Agent Orange Experienced.

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    That's what 'branching' means. A new branch (new TL, new universe if you will) grows from the point of divergence caused by the time traveler. The new branch goes in parallel with the old one instead of overwriting it. The past (the trunk of the tree in this analogy) is the same for both. But this means that a bunch of bugs (alt TL Sheeda) can now jump from the new branches to the old one and eat their fill.
     
  3. Agumentic

    Agumentic Not too sore, are you?

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    No, what I mean is time travel doesn't create a new branch, it creates an entirely new tree every time it's done. Any alternative Sheeda wouldn't reach this universe, they would just reach other universes more or less identical to it.
     
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  4. Mastigos2

    Mastigos2 I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    I suspect that the same complicated wibbly bits that prevent "a billion instances of you from minorly different timelines all try to time travel to the same space and time and explode in a tidal wave of gore that devastates the country" are playing a factor
     
  5. Agent Orange

    Agent Orange Experienced.

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    That's not how the branching model works. What you're describing is closer to parallel reality (Earth-16, Earth-50, etc.) than alternate timeline (all those Earth-16s with same but different Pauls (OL/Grayven/Sybarite) i.e. the Hypertime).
     
  6. Agumentic

    Agumentic Not too sore, are you?

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    Yes, that's not how it works. That would be why I asked, "are we sure the universe now works on branching model, and not on the model I suggested?".
     
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  7. Agent Orange

    Agent Orange Experienced.

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    *shrug* the best I can give you is that Paul Trapper explicitly called it 'Hypertime' (in that chapter after the Crisis fight after all of alt Pauls were sent home) and Hypertime is described as the branching model by writers (they used the river analogy but that's the same as the tree one). Make of that as you will. Then again comicbook physics so...
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2020
  8. Tyrantviewer

    Tyrantviewer lord of all I survey

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    I thought he abandoned ship during a previous harrowing- ie the coup happened during a harrowing, so Melmoth was cut off from the larger sheeda power base, but he could both flee and wait till the next one as an immortal, and the queen could consolidate her power by leaving him with little resources other than time and prepare to fight him at the next harrowing.

    I mean if you are trying to overthrow a monarch that regularly raids other nations very far away (in time in this case) then wouldn't it always be the smarter option to attack during one of the regular occasions they are away from their seat of power?

    yeah this makes sense- cconsidering the Sheeda prioritize raiding the past for material and emotional benefit over intellectual benefit (ie, collecting all the high tech and magic along with people who can teach it to create a golden age of all the knowledge and power) it makes sense that either their ability to reverse engineer their time machine is limited- or they just don't want to risk anyone stealing one. The second actually makes more sense beyond the Sheeda's sadistic temporal version of the ironborn's iron price, Castle revolving is also a huge fortress and the seat of royal power- by also having it be their only time machine but able to bring a fleet of flying but not time traveling ships with them, It becomes the cornerstone of their society, and further centralizes the monarchy's power. Really even if your society is based on time travel that means you want to regulate it more not less, and having fewer time machines helps with that- otherwise rivals to the throne could just steal one and travel back and raid enought to build up their own power base. If they had more time machines we would see Queen Tenebrous and King Melmoth having a time war as each tries to gather more power and catch the other at a time of weakness to strike them down. Even if there wasn't a reasonable explaination for the sheeda having only one time machine, it would be a nightmare to write or read the mess such a conflict would be- it would be like when fry and bender jumped around time in the big score movie but with both of them being competant megalomaniacs.

    I think they do branch- it is the future that becomes entirely new now- so the sheeda are limited because they can now only raid the timeline that produces them, if they end up changing things to make a new branch, then their home in the future is completely altered as well- and the heroes only have to beat them once because 1, Their time travel is limited to one dreadnought time machine so once it is taken out, any other sheeda are trapped in the future and 2 if the timetravel creates a branch then the new future won't be the one the sheeda came from. There may be other timetraveling threats but there is no longer the chance of the Sheeda using wibbly wobbly time to raid a timeline that "might" lead to their future home- I am not sure if they could but now it is definitely impossible

    The thing it now the sheeda's future is only on one branch, so they can only go back in time along that branch, and if they change things enough it sprouts a new branch with a new future, which isn't the one the sheeda came from. In short if the heroes are in the timeline that eventually creates the sheeda, then any harrowing is a potential last harrowing as soon as they take out castle revolving, and if they end up in a branch timeline, then they not only can still win by taking out the time machine, but the sheeda might not exist in the future anyway so if they loose the sheeda also have to deal with making a new base since the future changed- more headache inducing but still bad for the sheeda as well.
     
  9. LazySloth13

    LazySloth13 Versed in the lewd.

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    I figure instead of possibly traveling through time and space, like Grayven and Artemis, Paul and company are likely to find the Castle being under siege by Melmoth's forces only for the Sivannahs to show up with a specially designed superbomb to wipe out the Sheeda for good. Unlike the renegade version of Sivannah who's been working by himself the paragon version has help from his children and has gathered more data to create something more thorough.

    Granted I wouldn't mind seeing Paul undergo his own time travel odyssey, possibly to get better records of the past to learning about more future events to deal with them before they become an issue, and see how Paul's actions have made things better or worse overall.
     
  10. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    The Sheeda can send things back in time without taking the castle with them, like those Huntsman things, so Melmoth may have used those methods to travel back in time instead of taking a time ship.

    The last thing we need is a time war.

    Paul did technically have his time travel odyssey with that whole multiversal thing and the Mandate episode, but if I remember correctly Zoat once said that Paul may have some success in time travel in 2016 in universe, assuming he hasn't changed his mind.
     
  11. Fellow

    Fellow Know what you're doing yet?

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    Even dead gods dream
     
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  12. Someguy Somewhere

    Someguy Somewhere The Critical Fumbler

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    The First Descriptions we get of Hypertime in fiction as a fully formed idea is from "The Kingdom"

    [​IMG]

    So, from that and later explanations, hypertime isn't quite like how say, marvel handles timelines, while yes, there are multiple timelines going on, and moving between distinct ones happens, with marvel, each case of time travel that alters events creates a new time line, a distinct branching path, from which other timelines spring.

    Hypertime is a lot more fluid then that. It's compared somewhat to a River, more then a branching Tree. Each time line is a distinct current with in the river, but they flow in the same general direction, and they cross and merge and separate, changed. Elements bleed in across them even without them directly crossing over. Even characters that have demonstrated knowledge of events can get caught up in changes, and either they're subsumed into their reality without causing a ripple, or they get noticed. During the story of the Kingdom, the then current 'mainline' universe got a peek at the kingdom come 'verse. Batman was investigating alterations on his earth that were...leaks, from a pre crisis version, including the then forgotten alternate kryptonite colours and other heros.

    [​IMG]


    And from one John Kent, of the Kingdom's Future time line child of Supes and Wondy.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2020
  13. Vaermina

    Vaermina Experienced.

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    The thing to remember about time travel is that there is no future, only the present, and the past.

    In this case the Sheeda are the present, and Paul is the past.
     
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  14. RichardWhereat

    RichardWhereat Aia airëa Fëanáro.

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    So, do you think Paul is going to mantle the Ophidian today?
     
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  15. Agent Orange

    Agent Orange Experienced.

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    Obligatory Zoat Proclamation: "There is no Mantling in this story. We have dismissed that claim. Why is no one reading the FAQ?!"

    Even if something looks like Dresden Files Mantling, quacks like Dresden Files Mantling, it totally isn't Dresden Files Mantling.
     
  16. Threadmarks: Faed Away (part 19)
    Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    5th May
    03:28 GMT -5


    Suffer-Not-Obstinacy Chandler shoves his sabre through the head of a wounded spider, takes a moment to check that the strike was mortal and then takes a moment to survey the town. He exhales sharply through his teeth then heads back towards my aid tent. I haven't simply been able to flit around healing everyone because while the majority of the attackers were nice and visible, a few weren't and exposing myself wasn't a good idea. But with the attackers slain the local civilians have been bringing their fallen friends here in a way which suggests a degree of familiarity with the process.

    "We are done for now." He looks at two I haven't touched. "They are cursed in some way?"

    I nod. "My healing techniques appear to make the wounds worse. Can you do anything about it?"

    "I am trained to wound, not mend. And the local Reverend was targeted by the assassin spiders before the attack commenced. We will have to arrange for them to be escorted to New Plymouth."

    "Do you need me to remain?"

    "We are far from secure, but it would be churlish for me to ask that when our fellow Columbians are still under attack." He looks at the area where the local grundies are being stacked for salvage. Most of them are severely damaged, but I suppose that they won't dispose of them as long as they can soak a few hits. "T'will be a hard planting season with our labour gone. What is that strange grundywoman you have brought with you?"

    "Another victim of Melmoth's. I want to see if we can restore her mental faculties to the point where we can question her in detail."

    "I can break her to your will, if that is your desire."

    "No, thank you. I'm not even sure that she's completely dead. If she can be truly resurrected, I wouldn't-."

    He scowls for a moment before schooling himself.

    "Many are those who have looked to a grundy for the mind and soul of the departed. 'Tis absent, and 'tis sinful to pervert their purpose."

    "I.. assure you that I wasn't planning anything 'sinful'. She wasn't born of Melmoth's line, and I'm hopeful that she doesn't have the same restrictions as your people's grundies do."

    He shakes his head. "When I speak of 'sin', I do not merely refer to lust for the pleasures of the flesh outside of wedlock. But if she can be restored to true life, then what you say may be true. Where will you go now?"

    "I'll find out. Orange Lantern to Justice League. The attack on New Southampton is over. Orders?"

    "Blue Lantern here. Have you got room for refugees?"

    Evacuating the smaller settlements is a sound plan, though I can hear that Alan's not happy about doing it. I raise my eyebrows at Mr. Chandler, who nods cautiously.

    "Aye, we can, though food will become scarce if this situation continues."

    "Yes."

    "I'll fly them your way, then. The Columbians are getting hit all over, and I'm sure the outcasts are getting it worse. You got any way to track Melmoth down?"



    "Wonder Woman, how long can you spare me for?"

    "What do you have planned?"

    "I felt the pattern of Melmoth's desires on the creatures he sent after me. I might be able to feel him through the Honden. It will be far quicker than a waveform scan if it works."

    "And then?"

    "Confront and control. Sheeda normally self-destruct when I try that, but he's immortal. Then I can either have him end the attack or at least remove the higher level coordination."

    "Do it. We will hold here."

    "Understood. Orange Lantern out." I look at Aurakos. She might be able to cope with the journey, but I'd rather not chance it. "Mister Chandler, would you please look after Aurakos while I'm away?"

    He nods. "Certainly. May God bless you with good fortune."

    And deep breath and out we go.

    Hm. Again, I look around for the Ophidian but I can't really see her. Honestly, it just feels unnatural at this point, but… On with the job. I focus on the desire-patterns of the Columbians I've come to know, most importantly on their commonalities, and I find myself drawn in their direction. There's a sense of movement and having travelled but the journey feels like it takes no time at all.

    And I'm in an edifice to their shared drive and a room and a corridor and yet I know that it's not a real 'place' in any normal sense. Trying to describe it in material terms is an exercise in futility. Instead, I look for those desires which don't quite fit. Deviants within-.

    I press my lips against his and pray that none disturb-.


    No, not like that, though it's hardly surprising that the Columbians forbid homosexuality. How about-

    …would be so much more efficient if the grundymen could be repaired rather than interred. A small change in the blood magic animating them-.

    Yes, a warlock.

    …joy as I cut off another of its legs and watch as it tries to crawl away.


    Hello Klarion.

    It can't understand what I am, can't see that I'm so much more than it is-. But then I realise that I could be in the same position; that something greater than me could be ruining my fun. I look away, my mood ruined, and resolve to make sure that can't ever happen.

    Yes, more like that.

    Desires move around. Or I move around them, until the ones which feel like that are a table/map/diagram in front of me.

    I hold out my hand and the outline of the desire I felt from the spiders appears.

    More like this.

    Some desires flake off, returning to their usual webs. But a few remain, their feel and structure and relatedness being all the more apparent.

    I don't recall Lanterns operating in quite this way before. Perhaps it would be best to monitor this one a little more closely.


    Good. Now show me desires related to this. Desires from the same person.

    The network grows.

    Look at them all run! Look at them all bleed! Look at them die! Not so clever now, are you, dear children?

    And more and more. I try not to look at them all too closely, limiting myself to checking that they have the same feel and flavour. And more and more they grow, millennia of desires laid bare before me-

    A full belly. Just for once, to be freed of the pain-.

    -earliest to latest. I pull the latest towards me, surrounding myself in the feel of his avarice.


    And then I step in.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
  17. Coltsguy

    Coltsguy Colts fan. Anime fan. Breast and back fan.

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    Were one of these supposed to be somewhere else?
     
  18. BlueMangoAdea

    BlueMangoAdea Alive. For now.

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    That's certainly a useful trick. Is it even possible to ward against Honden-based scrying and teleporting?
     
  19. Agent Orange

    Agent Orange Experienced.

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    Is this Good Omens reference? :)
     
  20. thepsyborg

    thepsyborg Not too sore, are you?

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    Trivially, if you don't feel desire in any way. Possibly, if you're also Orange-Enlightened and have conscious control of your desires...? You could do things like blending your desires into the population around you for camouflage?

    And, of course, the simplest answer: Be a big enough badass that OL dares not teleport on top of you, or even look too closely at your desires. So, basically, "be Darkseid".
     
  21. Whenever Possible

    Whenever Possible Versed in the lewd.

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    Taking random bits of biblical passages for names was an actual historical practice in certain communities, very appropriate for the hard-core puritans.
     
  22. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    'then takes'

    'outcasts'

    Were this lines you kept as the regular color instead of orange intentional?

    Was this when Klarion decided to pursue something that would allow hm to become a Lord of Chaos.

    'remain'

    'to monitor'

    'them all'
     
  23. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    Thank you, corrected.
    Not intentionally.
    Thank you, corrected.
    Somewhat. I can't remember the original rationale I used to determine which lines were supposed to be orange and which ones weren't.
     
  24. egooo

    egooo Making the rounds.

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    Waaaaaait a moment.

    Did Zoat make Ophidian 'unavailable' now just to finally shut down any talks of Paul "mantling" her?
    [:V]
     
  25. Chojin Patriarch

    Chojin Patriarch Veteran Lurker

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    Yeah, common practice in this situation would be to, using the Shadowrun parlance, 'Geek the mage first'. He'd be a prime target for any smarter Sheeda creatures or warriors.

    Ugh, that's a nasty trick. Some sort of Negative Energy infection, perhaps. Or an Inversion spell, making healing into harm.

    Presumably the reverend was trained in healing magic, since they targetted him first. Or Melmoth was feeling vindictive?

    And technically not quite a proper Grundywoman, when you think about it...

    ooh, that might ruffle a few feathers, given their outlook on dealing with grundyfolk.

    Presumably he isn't talking about the obvious kind of sin, if you know what I mean, nudge-nudge... Though I don't doubt there are some depraved enough to consider it...

    Thought so. Presumably he means things like holding the grundy of a deceased loved one too closely to the household. Like, treating them as if they were still alive, when they aren't.

    Doesn't sound like things are going too well, then. Logical enough to gather the population in more easily-defended groups, even if it does make them a bigger target in return.

    Well, there's always fabricated food. I doubt it would be too pleasant, and there might be the risk of some toxic fault, but hey, better than starving?

    That's a good question. And the Warlock-breed are definitely in much greater danger than the townships proper. I can't imagine how many small settlements might already have been overrun. But it's probably a lot.

    Yes, do tell. This should be interesting.

    Have you ever head of 'Scry-and-die'?

    Ooh, that's actually a decent plan. Especially if you can exploit some of ol' Swirly-cheeks' desires to alter his outlook. Moreso if you can make those changes stick.

    Presumably he'll actually do so. I can imagine how annoyed OL might be if he returns and she's not been treated like a regular wounded person...

    More proof that Witchworld is fairly out of the way... And now I'm picturing the astral trip Doctor Strange took in the movie as visuals for all this.

    The human mind makes sense of things as best it can. Floors, walls and ceilings are sensible, stable.

    Oh, my [/takei] I can understand the proscription of same-sex relationships, though. Small population, you can't afford to have people not breeding. Every baby counts, even if they don't live long. Though I shudder at the thought of grundybabes... Columbians are probably far tougher against illness though given their Sheeda blood...

    And quite the disturbing one, just from that. Practical reason, sure, but I doubt it worked out to well.

    Easy to recognise. That sneering feeling of superiority is probably hard to mistake. He was always a nasty little boy...

    Like Darko said, I could easily see this being the impetus for finding his way into a Lordship of Chaos. It's impressive that he managed it so quickly, but who knows what he stumbled upon when he fled Columbia after turning Warlock?

    A good analogy. I can almost imagine each resembling a fluttering wisp, pinned down like a butterfly collection... o_O And now it feels weird...

    No need to use logic or conscious sorting. Just want the ones you need. This is the realm of avarice, after all.

    Yeah, that's the bastard. This shouldn't take long, to track him down.

    And it would be a big network, given his age. Thousands of years of desires, most of which would have been fulfilled instantly...

    A long, nasty life, from an ugly start to a hopefully ugly end.

    And gearing up as you go, i expect, since while he might not be expecting this, he's surely not undefended. Honestly, you call this Scry-and-die?

    And so things will come to a head. Hopefully Melmoth will get his righteously-deserved Face-punching desserts. Knock the swirls off those cheeks of his.:p With any luck, he won't be smiling when this is done.
     
  26. Vaermina

    Vaermina Experienced.

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    I know it won't happen...

    But I really hope Paul get's his ass kicked for being this stupid about a thing...

    And on that note, you want me to believe he shields his abandoned bases from that sort of teleportation but not where he actually is? Suspension of disbelief once again broken.
     
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  27. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    I guess it could be when he's not focusing fully on the Honden and using it to its fullest extent.
     
  28. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    Would make sense for the local priest to also be a healer.

    Melmoth being a prime example.

    With his ring he could probably make food fit for kings and if he takes a scan of them then the issue of toxicity is removed.

    Do you think the Moonmen will be mad at Paul for moving the moon when he merged with Ophi-chan?



    Just because they are attracted to the same gender doesn't mean they can't breed.

    Men can simply take some kind of aphrodisiac or masturbate and then have sex with a girl to get her pregnant, and a girl can just let a man have sex with her and then become pregnant, should they need to repopulate.

    Hey it's not that disturbing.

    It's like saying a doctors proposal for a new type of treatment is disturbing just because it's different.

    Don't forget the screeching voice.

    He might have accomplished it after years, or even decades, of work and after he did he altered his physical form to resemble that of a child, like how Mordru made himself look younger, because he thought it was better if someone that looked like a child caused all that chaos.
     
  29. Chojin Patriarch

    Chojin Patriarch Veteran Lurker

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    True, true. It's all a matter of wanting it hard enough.

    True, I wasn't saying they couldn't. But they are also Puritans. 'Go forth and be fruitful' and all that. And I think we'd better leave the discussion at that before someone gets cheesed off...

    haven't actually watched the show. I doubt it could live up to this fic's version.:D

    Although we've seen his sister, and she wasn't all that old. I doubt the Columbians age that much differently to humans proper...
     
  30. Assblaster5000

    Assblaster5000 I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    To be fair Lollypop Larry, Temporal Molester is at the very least ageless, and with all of the Columbians being his descendants things could get... strange, to put it mildly.
     
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