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Youjo Senki Discussion and Criticism

Discussion in 'General' started by Elmithian, Jan 7, 2017.

  1. Elmithian

    Elmithian Prolific Procrastinator

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    I have read through the manga (what has been released of it) and was halfway through the LN when I watched the anime yesterday and I got to say... it was horrible.

    Now, don't misunderstand me, if you have never read either the LN or the Manga I am sure it is a decent enough show, but with the knowledge I had from the original source materials (on top of some basic military and strategic knowledge), this first episode was on the verge of unwatchable for me.

    On top of them adding into things and tech that made no sense if you know the in-world lore and overall clearly showing little knowledge on warfare, military, gear, etc and their procedures (in comparison to the Manga/LN at least) they have pretty much ruined future episodes for me.

    Let me be clear, I will give the standard 3 episode chance, but I am not holding any hopes for this to be anything even remotely close to its source material. In fact, now my greatest hope is that in few years time it will be remade, much like various other anime series have been remade.

    But what is ye all thought/impression of it? Think it is okay, bearable or even good? Please do tell.
     
  2. Biigoh

    Biigoh Moderator

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    I watched it... it didn't live up to the hype.

    I'll still give it the 3 episode myself... but I dun know...

    They skipped the Norden Fairy, the Type experiment, and did a poor adaption of the Rhine battle which doesn't give information on why she starts going all Holy Prayer bit. Also, the Elerium orb does NOT look holy.

    Also the faces. The commander's MANLY chin, General Zettour's mustage and beard. The Eagle Wings on caps...

    This is all before the BLUE horrors that is Visha's eyes. @_@
     
  3. Elmithian

    Elmithian Prolific Procrastinator

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    Lets not forget that she started going with prayers in the episode before she was even going to use the ultimate. Oh and I really wanted to see this scene but it was nowhere in sight. In fact, all her attacks, including the ultimate were kind of lackluster in comparison to the description given in the LN and shown in the manga.

    Change of art-style I can somewhat bear (except Visha, she is now a frog person), but the alteration of how they fly, their ridiculous leg "thrusters". Forgoing helmets, the enemy *NAMED* unit of all units not wearing armor or any kind of additional protection... and those RIDICULOUS HORSE TOILET THINGIES they were riding on make no sense in-lore or strategically at all. They only make them a larger target and inflexible one at that.

    The medallions the flying units use is the reason why they can fly. The runes/crystals/whatevs in those are pretty much the things that assist giving them the "thrust" they need to fight against gravity. Honestly, I think that the director of the anime just skimmed quickly over the whole thing and then went "nope, this is all wrong, lets make it... better!" and then they proceeded with making the mess we see in the first episode.

    Sorry, I could go on about how many things they got wrong that I would be frothing at the mouth by the end so I am gonna stop here... for now. :/
     
  4. kifflomx

    kifflomx Less pessimistic than you might expect.

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    Hmm, i misread the title and googled Shoujo Senki getting some monster rape hentai stuff. It's like the lewd is persecuting me:confused:
     
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  5. Darkened

    Darkened Experienced.

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    The episode was well paced, looked distinctive in a not bad way and was otherwise generally well-crafted, though the ending fell a bit flat. The in media res beginning takes a very different tact from the novel, and one that I'm not sure I like, though it's eminently possible they'll shift back and begin from the beginning with the next episode.

    A few divergences from the novel were a bit meh. For one, the Named enemy unit dealt better with Tanya in the book, though this isn't as obvious without her narration, and the fight was more tactically described, though text is a better medium to describe the tactical elements of this kind of fight. The fight itself certainly looked different.

    A more significant divergence is that Visha was well aware that being in a pill box wasn't really safe from the start, and began to admire Tanya well after she knew what the promotion was doing.

    The novel makes a point of saying that she prays when she doesn't need to do so. It's explained at length as a PR move on her part, since she's going to break out into random prayer anyway eventually, Tanya decides to try and fold it into her image, since being religious is considered a positive trait and it makes more sense to do it universally instead of randomly breaking out into prayer only at key moments. It's also unspecified how much of the Type 95's output she was using in those scenes, which are presumably from parts of the conflict that the novel skimmed over.

    The manga's an adaptation, and doesn't really depict things entirely accurately either. The enemies are only described as kitted out for a long range mission (which would make some easily ditchable means of carrying extra ammo/supplies/etc reasonable). Likewise there's frequent mentions of balance issues that mages have in flying. There's no indication that anyone uses armor in the novel and repeated statements that Tanya is only wearing a uniform, for the real reason that you don't actually see plate armor in a military environment defined by machine guns and rifles. Otherwise it wouldn't really make sense for Tanya, a valuable strategic resource, to skip on armor. There's no drawing of this enemy unit, and no specifications about what long ranged forces might be using.

    There are any number of functions the horses might serve. It's very hard to judge without in depth knowledge of the technology and gear used, something we the audience don't have. In practice they're there to make it easier to clarify which side is which during combat scenes with multiple characters and a lot of movement. They're not particularly sillier than having one side use plate armor which hampers range of motion, visibility and wouldn't provide much in the way of protection against actual WWI weapons, much less the magically enhanced kind of firepower we routinely see even normal mages using. Given that there are already magical means of protection that can stop those things, I'd take the silly looking horses over the plate armor for an embellishment.

    It's definitely different from the manga, but the manga is itself an adaptation, and not necessarily an extraordinarily accurate one.

    While I agree that there are some issues in the adaptation, it's silly to proclaim the anime a 'disaster' based on one episode aimed mostly to introduce the setting and characters. It's also a point worth noting that many of the things you critique it for doing and not doing are things that don't and do happen in the novel itself.

    It wasn't great by any standard, but the anime's hardly a 'disaster' at this point. If anything, the fact that Tanya asked the enemy to surrender before firing instead of freaking out and screaming at them, makes it a more faithful adaptation than the manga up to this point, given that the point of pulling back to evaluate their perspective and draw a lot of silly interpretations was a fairly key element of characterization, especially in contrast with how the enemy actually interprets those statements.

    (Granted, the flashback of that scene from camera somehow seems to portray the events that happened in the novel instead of the rather different dialogue they just showed happen in the manga adaptation...)
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2017
  6. Elmithian

    Elmithian Prolific Procrastinator

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    I will try to give you a lengthier reply tomorrow but I want to point out that the title of the thread literally has a question mark implying it is a question, not a statement (though I am sure I could have phrased it much better). Indeed, my first post literally ends with asking yer stance on it, even if my personal impression was extremely bad I do not think that my view is the only view in the world.

    Now, a question, do you have military experience, and if not, are you a military buff? Cause if you are either, I am extremely surprised by your reply to the last quoted window from me.
    Lets just say that military wise, most of the liberties the manga makes make 99.9999% more strategic and logical sense than anything the anime has done so far. Oh and they weren't wearing full plate armor in the manga. Only their forearms, chest and heads were covered, just take a look at the manga again. This can actually been explained and reasoned with logic, unlike exploding toilet horsies.

    Anyhow, will try to go more in depth about how strategically and logically how much of a mess I consider the 1st episode of the anime to be tomorrow and just how much there is I want to criticize by breaking it logically down bit by bit. Sorry, but you might have to experience a lengthy rant tomorrow (or the day after if I can't finish it completely then). Ye let the floodgate open and now I have to go all out to explain my points. :p
     
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  7. Biigoh

    Biigoh Moderator

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    [​IMG]

    Episode 2 is much better than episode 1. They've covered the prologue of the novel and capped it with the Norden Fairy fight.
     
  8. Elmithian

    Elmithian Prolific Procrastinator

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    Yeah, it is a wast improvement from the first episode, and like I have mentioned to my friends, the sound editing is great. Though I may have a lot to criticize about the first episode I always felt that the sound effects were top notch. This episode was no different. I still feel like the one legged combat gear is illogical due to various factors, but I can partially look past that for the sake of enjoyment.

    I also did like how they made the opponent's flight gear in this episode. Skiing in the air is a pretty nifty idea (doesn't explain why the elite team in 1st episode was using a clearly inferior flight equipment to those skiing guys, but whatever). Nevertheless, the combat scenes still felt a bit lacklusters though I was happy that they didn't make it too PG-13 friendly in it. Slightly annoyed that Tanya didn't get as injured (by them enemy and the blast) as how it was described, but once again, minor gripes.

    What really puzzles me is that from the first part of the 2nd episode we clearly see very advanced, fluid and highly detailed cuts and execution (talkin' about the moment our MC was falling in front of the train). If they have this talent, why aren't they using it for the combat? I mean, it was decent, sure, but it didn't really give the feeling of flight as much as the people pretending to fly using a bluescreened background. The depth perception was off during most of them and the movement felt... I am not sure, non-flying? non-real? Not sure, but somehow those scenes did really not give of the sense of flying that I had hoped for.

    And the "Orbs" looked a bit more like actual orbs rather than medallions that they are in the Manga. It is almost in the other end to what the LN describes them like, the manga is too technical, the anime is too orb-ish and non-technical whilst the LN would be somewhere in-between. Odd stuff, but I can stand it now since I have calmed down.

    It is not nearly as good as I had originally hoped for but it is much better then what I had feared. I did like that she was wearing a protection underneath her clothing during the moment she blasted herself, so I will be retracting some of my statements about their (team NUT) knowledge about military equipment and such.

    Honestly, the second episode feels like it was directed by a completely different person than the first one was. That was how starkly different their "camera work", execution of the scenes and method was to inform the people watching the anime. Still lacks this feeling of flight I was hoping for, but this episode was much more watchable than the first one in my opinion.

    My current stance: Confused as fuck. Is NUT split up in 2 teams that don't talk to each other or...?
     
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  9. Biigoh

    Biigoh Moderator

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    Episode 1 are french. Episode 2 are norwegians/nordic country.

    So, the equipment sort of makes sense.
     
  10. Elmithian

    Elmithian Prolific Procrastinator

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    I don't feel that this level of difference in tactical gear makes sense. Especially since the guys in the 1st episode are supposed to be the Elite of the Elite whilst the guys in 2nd episode are a mix of experienced and inexperienced. I am okay with some level of inferior equipment, but as I said, I am pretty sure they would equip their Elites with the best flight equipment they could get their hands on... and even if not, those horsies just are not convenient, efficient or mobile enough to be something an extremely valuable (flight) army unit would use (mages ain't dime a dozen, they are still somewhat a rarity, at least the more talented ones).

    The horse toilets are a bad idea in every tactical way and stand out easily, making them easily spottable by anyone looking up. If that equipment in particular would be changed into something that made sense the 1st episode would be much more bearable (not good, but better) in my opinion.

    Edit. Oh, and the "No helmets" thing they are going for is still completely unexcusable. Doesn't matter that they have shields. No helmets while in combat zone would never be allowed.

    Also, Tanya, the rulemaniac she is, would never completely blow up a whole wall of the education facility she was at. That part was also kind of nonsensical.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2017
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  11. Biigoh

    Biigoh Moderator

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    It depends I think on the weapon/offensive level verses how protective helmets are.

    Ie if the shields are that much or outright better in protection, then helmets would be more of a drawback than benefit... Ala weight, visual blockage, hearing issues and so on.
     
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  12. Elmithian

    Elmithian Prolific Procrastinator

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    The amount a semi-modern military helmet can save you versus the minimal loss in hearing, in truth they protect your hearing. To be frank you want your hearing to be a bit protected, considering you are near and firing, ye know, guns+experiencing explosions in the near vicinity. Most helmets do not hinder much if any of your vision, nor are they overly weighty.

    Plus there are thousands of situations where a helmet could save you. Sure, they have shields, but these can fail like everything else. Why not have a backup that have such negligible negative factors. A decent helmet is never more of a drawback than positive factor.
     
  13. Biigoh

    Biigoh Moderator

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    I meant more that anything that can take out a shield would also take out a helmet, so it becomes kind of pointless in that regards.
     
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  14. cross_grave

    cross_grave Belligerent Spitire

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    That still doesn't negate the factor that hearing protection is a must on a battlefield that involves firearms/explosives/anything like those things on account of how easily they can damage your hearing.
     
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  15. Terthna

    Terthna Professional Lurker

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    You know, this one image almost got me interested in taking a look at this show, or at least the manga; but after finding out her backstory and the sheer amorality of the setting, no thanks. Although now I'm considering digging up my old Rozen Maiden discs, so there's that at least.
     
  16. Elmithian

    Elmithian Prolific Procrastinator

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    Oh? Why is that bad? That is pretty close to how reality works last time I checked. Plus, it isn't about that really. The story is about Tanya and his misadventure and actions that dig him further and further into conflict rather than back into the rear guard where things are safe and where he really wants to be. I would mark the manga as mostly comedy focused with some spectacular combat scenes in-between.

    But you do you. I still think you should give the manga at least a shot, but I won't push you beyond what I just said. Still curious why amoral turns you off. Why is that?

    Rarely, in any war, is either faction the "good guys" so I personally find it more annoying (specifically in semi-realistic built military genres) when they color one party as pure evil and that the people on that side are somehow hugely worse human beings than those the MC is fighting with.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2017
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  17. Terthna

    Terthna Professional Lurker

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    I'm not interested in what's "realistic", it's more important that it be internally consistent, and besides; fiction is more interesting to me the more unrealistic it gets. This is why I vastly prefer the fantasy genre over science fiction. As to why amorality in particular turns me off, I have issues with depression; so I prefer stories that can lift my mood, rather than drag it down. Although while we're talking about things that are curious, while it is understandable to be annoyed by an overused cliche, why is it suddenly okay when it's the protagonist who's depicted as pure evil? One would think that instead of a pure inversion of the trope, you'd be more intrigued by something that does away with it entirely; like much of the Gundam franchise, for example.
     
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  18. Elmithian

    Elmithian Prolific Procrastinator

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    I shall answer you. Because people enjoy to see him fail and suffer from his arrogance and inability to read people. Every, and then I mean every plan he makes backfires in some fashion and it is hilarious and thrilling to see how he manages to look hardcore in the eyes of his superior when all he is trying to do is to trying to look like a coward in their eyes.

    Also, amoral isn't pure evil. The person is a an obvious sociopath. And being a sociopath doesn't make you evil. Just more self centered with inability to have empathy for others. Tanya has no interest in fighting, all she/he wants to do is to have a cozy office work somewhere far from the front lines. Not rule the world.

    He/she also has a logical enough focused mind to realize that a satisfied worker/soldier/etc is a productive worker. That efficiency means rooting out those unproductive whilst praising those that do well.

    And the genre where I want my fair chunk of amorality is pretty much focused to military themed things that have a semi-realistic approach. Sure, I don't mind it elsewhere, but I don't have such a preference for it other than there.
     
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  19. Basefan

    Basefan Something Edgy and Cool

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    I'm thinking of getting into the series, but I've been getting some conflicting options on which version I should read.

    Do you guys have any suggestions?
     
  20. Elmithian

    Elmithian Prolific Procrastinator

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    Well... it is kind of hard for me to say, seeing as I am obviously a bit biased about this.

    Nevertheless I do think the manga, and not the Light novel or the anime is the best medium to start with as it's setup is quite easy to get into, unlike the bit lengthier approach of the LN. Additionally, the 1st episode of the anime apparently gave a lot of people incorrect impression of the nature of the series so perhaps not best to start there.

    So I would go manga>LN>anime partly because I feel it is the best approach and additionally due to the fact that the anime only has 2 episodes so far (3 later today)
     
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  21. GhostKaiju

    GhostKaiju is not a deviant; just the resident Xenophiliac

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    The one thing that stops me from getting into this show (besides lazy worldbuidling, which I discussed over on SB) was a single line that put my teeth on such an edge that I couldn't be bothered to get through the episode, and that was a contrast between dialouge and action so bad it made me just give up.

    Random Not!German Soldier: Where's the reinforcements!?
    Other Random Not!German Sodlier: It doesn't matter, it's just Mages!

    Mages; People who can fly, create energy shields, and fight with the xplosive prwoess making them essentially flying artillery guns, and are the Ace-in-the-Hole for "Country with dumbest fucking war strategies since Napoleon fighting Russia in Winter" (A war on FIVE FUCKING FRONTS AT ONCE WITH NO ALLIES ON YOUR SIDE AND ALL OF THEM WORKING TOGETHER!). The soldiers are told these people, the pride, joy and weapons of mass-destruction, are coming tk save them from the Not!French...

    And they go "Ah fuck, can't we get someone better!? They're worthless!"
    o
    That's the equivalent of me starting a story about American Marines fighting in [insert your environment of choice that would fuck them over], them screaming for reinforcements, me replying "Don't worry, an A-10 Warthog and a Delta-6 Team is coming to personally save you guys!", and them replying "AH MAN, CAN'T YOU JUST A TANK OR SOMETHING, THOSE OTHER GUYS SUCK!"

    Soldiers are not this fucking stupid, nobody is this fucking stuoid, and how the fuck does any of this make any sense!?
     
  22. Elmithian

    Elmithian Prolific Procrastinator

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    ....I don't remember this being the attitude in the Manga or the LN... am I remembering wrong? The only thing I can remember from there about something similar is that some of the ground soldiers were complaining/worrying that only one wing(/smaller than that possibly) of Sorcerers was coming to their aid. Not that they were ungrateful, but rather that the support was too small to be able to effectively aid the whole defensive line (in that particular area). That is about the extent I think I have read such an attitude from the standard infantry. But I could be remembering wrong of course.

    Either way, I watched the 3rd episode. It was... okay I guess. But in comparison to the LN/Manga (my opinion) the show is mediocre at best with very fluctuating quality.

    So for me, I am going to drop the show. I have extremely limited time and spending it watching a show I find mediocre is not worth it.

    Well, to be fair, only Tanya would be considered to be worth a flight of A-10 (which is nothing to scoff at) plus a touch of AC-130 (Yeah, a huge claim, but read the manga and you will understand what I mean) whilst her comrades would be akin of blend of late world war planes with somewhat better static maneuverability than helicopters (and better weapons). Though to be fair, their size, maneuverability and speed most likely would make them worth much more than any plane or jet for a very long time (or permanently as the tech for Sorcerers seems to be constantly improved).

    What be ye all thoughts?
     
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  23. Xicree

    Xicree Destroy and Rejoice!

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    WW1 mage edition.

    While the Soldiers on the front going 'its just mages' is kinda weird (Its like saying 'its just artillery or its just the air forces' irl) the actual war itself it deeply based in what actually happened in WW1.


    An incedent sparked a war with another country, then the empire decided to hit that country's allies so that they could concentrate on the first, which induced other countries around it to go... oh you're over extending yourself in a war with these other guy... and started pecking at other sides of their borders.

    Ie the 5 front war isn't really their fault. And the enemy forces Aren't actually all working together, just being opportunistic over each other and not fighting each other too.
     
  24. Jaertin

    Jaertin I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    In addition to what Xicree said, the Empire has all the lands of Germany, Austria-Hungary, The Netherlands, Belgium, and Denmark. They have more resources than the RL Central Powers had, and all of it under a unified command, instead of the RL mess (no fucking Hotzendorf, huzzah!). They can take any two of the other powers on at once and win, the problem is that everybody else can see this and is ganging up on them.

    IIRC, at the start the Empire has non-aggression pacts with not!Italy and not!Russia. They were trying to secure their flanks, the five front war is not at all what they wanted to happen.
     
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  25. Biigoh

    Biigoh Moderator

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    [​IMG]

    Episode 4 is out... and it's slowly growing on me despite the faces.
     
  26. Elmithian

    Elmithian Prolific Procrastinator

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    Happy that you are enjoying it. Still, as a rule I won't be checking on it again, at least not until I have finished my quota with other anime series I am interested in. I just wish there was more internal monologue than there is, but I guess that kind of approach is a bit harder in animation than on paper.

    The good news however, is that it has given the manga and LN the exposure they needed and I have been seeing an explosion of artwork (mainly based on the manga/LN character art style ofc) there. So I hope that the manga and the LN get proper popular due to this.
     
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  27. GhostKaiju

    GhostKaiju is not a deviant; just the resident Xenophiliac

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    [​IMG]

    Subtlety; if the anime won't have it (seriously, somebody explain to me why the fuck the setting is literally europe with a new coat of paint and name changes and not just an original settig), the advertisements don't need to!
     
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  28. Elmithian

    Elmithian Prolific Procrastinator

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    Now, I am not sure whether you are merely mocking the advertising approach of Crunchyroll, the structure of the anime or the story in the LN/Manga. So since I am not sure I will be replying as if you are questioning why the setting isn't just in WW1 or WW2. So, if I am reading ye wrong then just view my reply below as absurd overreaction/over-analysis and laugh at the stupid me.

    Enjoy ;D
    Because of this?

    Read the afterword and you should get an idea why it isn't trying to be anything. Because its original intention is...?
    For the funsies.

    The author was doing the story for fun and when it got very popular he was offered to make a LN out of it. Then, without any editing (other than word fixes) the story was made into a LN. Honestly, I like the idea of the story happening right in-between where the two world wars in our world would have been. It creates an interesting scenario and removes some of the more questionable stuff that was in both. Instead, it creates its own flair of questionable actions and ideas. Personally, I kind of like that.

    In layman's terms; this is a what if scenario. What if WW 1 never happened and what if the world had actual magic which effectiveness and use could be researched and improved with the scientific method? What if there existed multidimensional beings, which were utter jerks and posed as gods? What if we have a protagonist, that is a complete arsehole? And so on.
    Of course an oversimplification but yeah, that isn't so out there.

    Here are a good example of good/decent games that do similar stuff: Wolfenstein; The New Order, Stalker: Shadow of Chernobyl, Fallout series, Command&Conquer, Bioshock, Assassin's Creed etc. etc. etc.

    Here are novels that do similar stuff: Man In The High Castle, The Years of Rice and Salt, 1632, Fatherland, Farthing, The Alteration[*], Ada of Ardor (Suspect a lot of our NSFW crowd would love this one), Wild Cards, Weapons of Choice (a odd one to be sure) etc. etc. etc.

    My point is, this isn't really a new thing in storytelling and if done right, it is an interesting approach to oddly familiar things. So that is my answer to "why it isn't the original setting", well... because
    a) Alt. History stories are often intriguing and make you look at certain things in a different way
    b) The author was writing the story for fun and not to make some political agenda and thus the setting shouldn't be taken too seriously?

    Oh, and I actually thoroughly recommend most of the novels mentioned above. Though I haven't read many of them for the longest time I do remember I enjoyed most of them (haven't read Wild Cards nor 1632 yet). But yeah, as I was saying, it is an alternative history/reality and I think it is actually kind of a fun approach to it. Not the most realistic one, but fun nevertheless.


    [*] I actually suspect that the creator of the LN of Youjo Senki read The Alteration as there are a number of similarities between the two.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2017
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  29. Space Penguin

    Space Penguin Boring person

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    I have watched this and its nice. Tanya constantly tries to get rear duty but her efforts + GOD doing background shenanigans just make her get thrown into the very thing she tries to avoid. Hilarious.

    She is a manipulative and full of hubris person.

    I like that.

    Far more interesting then the usual stuff.

    Some people bitch about the 2 soldiers that got killed. All that mess was started by them. They couldn't just shut up and obey.
     
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  30. Elmithian

    Elmithian Prolific Procrastinator

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    What? Oh right, that episode for some reason blew that thing out of proportions. Both the manga and LN just allude to it and honestly, such methods weren't unheard or of disagreed to when dealing with rebellious subordinates. In fact, whole team of such people were often gathered together to be thrown at the enemy as cannonfodder. Those were very common... and are still somewhat done today (not to be used as cannonfodder, but as more... dispensable units.

    Either way, I recommend that ye read the comments in the thread as your comment kind of indicates that you haven't read the points people have made (I will be frank, I may be the more vocal/loud one in the comments). Some people think the anime is decent enough though so if you think so that is fine. Personally I think it is okay-ish, but in comparison to the LN and the Manga it is very sub-par.

    Either way, long as you don't claim that the toilet horsies or the one-legged thruster gear make sense you will be fine. :3