Agumentic
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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)
- Thread starter Mr Zoat
- Start date
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- self insert young justice
Mr Zoat
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BR549
This is filth! FILTH!!
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As mentioned, there's a big difference between things being de facto and things being de jure. The act of putting it on paper is a huge escalation from "we'll do it quietly".
In a nutshell: it's the difference between the Justice League and the Justice Lords.
Wheenesss
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Interestingly, Paul never met the Earth 50 Justice Lords. Only Renegrayven did. Paul met the proper Earth 12 Justice League when he and Zatanna were messing around on Earth -14.
Maybe it's time to change that?
Steelplaza
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There have been a lot of DC alternate universes where Superman leads the Justice League in taking over the world, but none that I can recall where Batman is the instigator. In fact Batman is usually either a resister or the first to be talked down and turn on the new order.
In which case Zoat is breaking new ground, good show. We know Batman was greatly affected by his experience with both the anti-life and the brain alterations. We know that since then he's been using a fear power ring completely unsupervised and that those can affect the mind. We know that these days Batman and Mr. Atom (who would be the last person to oppose taking over the world) have been running the League, with everyone going where they say to go and doing what they say needs done.
In retrospect the reason Batman told Paul not to talk about the Justice League taking over the world is he didn't want OL warning anyone. Look how slick he's been. Even many readers in this thread are going, "Oh but is it really so unreasonable?" Well let me ask a question, who is "the Justice League"? Is anyone the Justice League gives an order to acting under the Justice League's authority? Superman can change any zoning law he wants is one thing. Batman appoints ten thousand people as Justice League associates to go out and change zoning laws is another.
And to an extent this is Paul's fault. He knows what power rings can do to people. He's had to corral many OL corps members driven mad by their rings. But out of guilt he couldn't bring himself to check on Batman or at least be forceful in demanding someone else check on him. A very understandable and human mistake but a mistake.
Heh. It's funny. Batman always resists personal empowerment so hard, won't take physical enhancement and will only use power armor when necessary. Here he finally took up a power ring, and who knows how dangerous it has made him. The fact that he hasn't been showy with it just means he's been using it to do all the subtle things a power ring can do.
In which case Zoat is breaking new ground, good show. We know Batman was greatly affected by his experience with both the anti-life and the brain alterations. We know that since then he's been using a fear power ring completely unsupervised and that those can affect the mind. We know that these days Batman and Mr. Atom (who would be the last person to oppose taking over the world) have been running the League, with everyone going where they say to go and doing what they say needs done.
In retrospect the reason Batman told Paul not to talk about the Justice League taking over the world is he didn't want OL warning anyone. Look how slick he's been. Even many readers in this thread are going, "Oh but is it really so unreasonable?" Well let me ask a question, who is "the Justice League"? Is anyone the Justice League gives an order to acting under the Justice League's authority? Superman can change any zoning law he wants is one thing. Batman appoints ten thousand people as Justice League associates to go out and change zoning laws is another.
And to an extent this is Paul's fault. He knows what power rings can do to people. He's had to corral many OL corps members driven mad by their rings. But out of guilt he couldn't bring himself to check on Batman or at least be forceful in demanding someone else check on him. A very understandable and human mistake but a mistake.
Heh. It's funny. Batman always resists personal empowerment so hard, won't take physical enhancement and will only use power armor when necessary. Here he finally took up a power ring, and who knows how dangerous it has made him. The fact that he hasn't been showy with it just means he's been using it to do all the subtle things a power ring can do.
Ngamer11
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Kara Zor-El is Supergirl I. Noriel/Linda Danvers is Supergirl II. Kara Zor-L is Supergirl III. It's based on who showed up first.
Darko
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They really need to get some new names.
Maybe Angelfire for Noriel.
xSieg
Getting sticky.
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I mean, yeah, if you're talking about governance.
The League were given de facto legal powers because no one is willing to prosecute them for their illegal good deeds, right? Their good PR comes from the fact that the government organizations know that they're righteous face punchers foremost and not political agents. So Batman making a powergrab using that reputation is scummy and should in fact be noted, but I don't really feel like it's urgent.
Let's say that this passes and the League is given de jure powers now. What does that actually change, in practical terms, for Batman? If he were to perhaps imprison someone without a trial he wouldn't need to suffer government reprisal... or maybe he could use it to covertly subvert his political opponents in various countries by vanishing them without due process. But these were all things he could in fact do with no political power whatsoever had he wanted to. What could the UN do to stop it? Storm the watchtower? They'd need to rely on the Justice League to stop a rogue JL member just the same, who are all righteous face punchers and not restricted by a new legal charter.
The only advantage I can kind of see Batman having with real authority on the JL is maybe pulling the official GLs off him because of the non-interference clause on the rings? Everything else is basically worthless because the League is the only political organization that has any hope of stopping him in any way. And they can't read, in general.
hkim
Know what you're doing yet?
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My thoughts were more like "huh, yet another woman Paul has more chemistry with than Jade" tbh. iirc Squire isn't a literal teenager in this continuity too?
Mr Zoat
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Squire is a literal teenager in this continuity too.
PDV
Revelation That Uncertainty Is Itself An Answer
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Oh, it gets worse. This is supposedly in Chicago. There are no suspension bridges in Chicago except a single-cable pedestrian bridge, and there isn't even anywhere you could put one over water. The river isn't wide enough (many bridges but almost everything is a steel truss drawbridge) and crossing Lake Michigan is both beyond human engineering capabilities and bloody stupid to try even if it's within superhuman capabilities.
The only place to put a suspension bridge in Chicago would be as an overpass.
Jirachi
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Did he actually meet a violet lantern version? I think he just sort of saw that there was some violet rings at the krona fight, but at least on screen don't think he ever stopped and talked to one.
Do wonder how much this is a mess that arose from the sapient rights act and the like - if there's anyone justifying this I'd have to assume it's because they want to make sure that e.g. demons are emphatically dealt with and that if they need for everyone to not have rights to do that before the league then they have to do that.
It's also just... goodness. Not having rules for regaining regularity seems silly, and frankly by now I do think that it'd likely be practical enough to stop them from doing torturey things given the acessibility of magic and/or telepathic options.
I get the appeal of this, but at the very least there should be some sort of review system or more integration - even just some data sharing could really help.
And the league is still run on the unamity model, right? I can't imagine that Doctor Mist is exactly okay with this.
Incidentally, I wonder if the forge gods can work with Dilusteel - feels like there ought to be a lot of things possible with that.
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Steelplaza
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I fully expect Mist to resign in protest, but part of the cleverness of Batman's scheme is that it can't be blocked by the unanimity rules because it's not something that the League is doing. It's the governments of the world that are passing this legislation. The League could vote, "we don't think that the governments should pass these bills" and so what, they do it anyway.
Anyway, this is Zoat trying to write the scheme of a person much smarter than he the author is, so I have a lot of allowance for, "Batman thought of that and figured out how to deal with it".
Mr Zoat
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Batman got responsibility for overseeing this. Doctor Mist might say that he's unhappy, but the reason he joined the League is still valid. If anything it's more so.
hkim
Know what you're doing yet?
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I guess that is the price of admission for a *checks notes* "Teen Titans" SI fic?
tx Zoat as always
NightmareWarden
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They're too similar at their cores, while their respective life experiences don't really lend themselves towards appreciating each other beyond polite questions. Whenever they have a professional or ethical disagreement, the fight would possess enough heat and burns to lead lingering unpleasantness afterwards. I could see her becoming as close to some variant Paul as Alan and Kon are in this timeline… but not as a romantic partner.
Hmm. God I'd love to see some time travel situation fling her into the past with a younger but not full-on rookie Wonder Woman. Allies, but not partners. Butting heads. Squire is just better version of Oracle in my book.
Prince Charon
Just zis guy, you know?
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Huh. How often have we seen this gag (not counting The Eyes, just the ones where he shows up like this)?
Ngamer11
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The only other time I remember him teleporting to a woman in the bathroom was when he was talking to Xalitan's lover.
NightmareWarden
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Goo-Goo G'joob (part 12)
Mr Zoat
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10th July 2013
06:39 GMT
"…first time she's brought anyone 'round from America." Missus Hutchinson is washing the breakfast cutlery, having rejected my offer to do it for her. "You here for anything special?"
"In point of fact, this is more me dropping in unannounced. I wanted her input on-." Huh. "Actually, have you been keeping up with what's going on in parliament?"
She rolls her eyes. "Lot of use they've been."
"It's just that there's a piece of legislation going through that I'm a bit worried about, and I was wondering if you were aware of it?"
"I doubt it. What's it about?"
"Well, basically, giving the Justice League extraordinary authority to control anything they want in order to fix human civilisation."
"Oh. What's wrong with that?"
"I just… I wouldn't be comfortable having that much power. And I'm not really all that comfortable with anyone else having it, either."
She thinks for a moment, frowning. "Here, didn't you spin the moon around a few years ago?"
"Yes. That-. I did. You'd be surprised how few people bring that up."
"And you're worried about the Justice League getting too much power? More than they have already?"
"Sort of-. I like to think of the Justice League as a nice-to-have thing. I don't like the idea that our entire civilisation is carried on the backs of two dozen people. Like… We're not really doing anything that other people couldn't do, we're just doing it a bit faster."
"Didn't I read something about stopping some Indian terrorists from using stolen nuclear weapons a little while ago?"
"Yes. Yes, that happened. They didn't actually have.. that many, and they didn't have the technical capacity to launch them on missiles, but they did have them."
"And the Indian government couldn't stop them?"
"Not-. Not as quickly."
"Well there you are, then. They are essential. Unless you think some nutters setting off nuclear bombs is just normal."
"I mean… Yes, Kobra did escalate to that point eventually, but that was after decades of the police and the military not hunting them down."
"I'm sure they were trying."
"But if they'd been better resourced then they might have succeeded. And the League didn't stop them until after the first fusion bomb went off."
"The police didn't stop them at all."
I nod, taking a moment to get my thoughts in order. "So… Basically… You wouldn't have a problem with the Justice League having unlimited authority to do anything?"
"No, not really. I think they can be trusted. And I don't think anyone could really stop Superman anyway."
"I-. Could-." Not the point. "But just because they're well intentioned, that doesn't mean that they know everything, or have the best ideas about everything."
"It's not permanent, is it?"
"It could all be revoked with another act of parliament. In Britain, anyway. That's the beauty of the Westminster system; there's no limit on parliamentary sovereignty."
"Apart from the European Union."
"No, according to British law, everything they say can be ignored and overridden. It's not, because of the other consequences of doing that, but sovereignty rests in parliament. Until… This law goes through, then it'll effectively rest with Batman and Mister Atom."
She frowns. "Who's Mister Atom?"
I generate an illustrative construct. "This chap. He joined officially after we got rid of the Anti-Life. He's a robot who wants to take over the world."
"What does he want to do that for?"
"Because he thinks that he should because he's very strong and clever and he has a bit of trouble with the idea that those aren't the only determining factors. But he was pretty much immune to the Anti-Life and he's also… Very good at evaluating macro-level factors and monitoring the wide scale effects of our work."
"Oh. That sounds good."
"He also struggles to comprehend humans and humanity."
"Of course he does. It's only natural, isn't it? He's a robot."
"Yes, but it's a bit of a problem when he's got total authority to decide, for example, to demolish the Downs because they create inefficiencies in the shape of farmland."
"Do they?"
"Yes. Large flat fields are preferable to hilly terrain in almost all circumstances, and the thin soil covering chalk of the Downs is pretty bad for growing things."
"He can just… Get rid of hills?"
"Not easily. He'd need the help of a couple of other League members. But a hill is just a piece of rock or earth. Any sufficiently powerful magician could remove one. This is what I'm talking about. It's not just about getting rid of a few legal impediments to ensuring a full recovery of the planet. It's giving all of them the right to do anything."
"And we can't put it back afterwards."
"Not as it was."
"Oh. I'd have to think about that."
There are footsteps on the stairs, and then Beryl appears in full costume. "Think about what, Mum?"
"Apparently, we're giving the Justice League control of everything."
"Not quite everything, Mum. Batman's trying to arrange things so that we won't get hit quite as hard if something like this happens again. We'll probably end up doing a bit more farming in Britain but that's-." She looks at me. "That's why you're here. That's not what it says."
I shake my head. "I've got the updated wording. For some reason the world's being a little more generous, and I want you and Osiris to go through it to make sure that I'm not missing something before I go and talk to him about it. Oh, and… I was hoping to get your input on Dawn's situation."
She regards me levelly. "And you lost your telephone so you couldn't phone ahead. Hm?"
"No, sorry, that was my mistake. I don't see exactly what's at the other end, and I didn't think to.. scan…"
"Don't do it again." I nod as she thinks. "Okay. I've been wondering what Greater Kahndaq is like right now. Let's go."
06:39 GMT
"…first time she's brought anyone 'round from America." Missus Hutchinson is washing the breakfast cutlery, having rejected my offer to do it for her. "You here for anything special?"
"In point of fact, this is more me dropping in unannounced. I wanted her input on-." Huh. "Actually, have you been keeping up with what's going on in parliament?"
She rolls her eyes. "Lot of use they've been."
"It's just that there's a piece of legislation going through that I'm a bit worried about, and I was wondering if you were aware of it?"
"I doubt it. What's it about?"
"Well, basically, giving the Justice League extraordinary authority to control anything they want in order to fix human civilisation."
"Oh. What's wrong with that?"
"I just… I wouldn't be comfortable having that much power. And I'm not really all that comfortable with anyone else having it, either."
She thinks for a moment, frowning. "Here, didn't you spin the moon around a few years ago?"
"Yes. That-. I did. You'd be surprised how few people bring that up."
"And you're worried about the Justice League getting too much power? More than they have already?"
"Sort of-. I like to think of the Justice League as a nice-to-have thing. I don't like the idea that our entire civilisation is carried on the backs of two dozen people. Like… We're not really doing anything that other people couldn't do, we're just doing it a bit faster."
"Didn't I read something about stopping some Indian terrorists from using stolen nuclear weapons a little while ago?"
"Yes. Yes, that happened. They didn't actually have.. that many, and they didn't have the technical capacity to launch them on missiles, but they did have them."
"And the Indian government couldn't stop them?"
"Not-. Not as quickly."
"Well there you are, then. They are essential. Unless you think some nutters setting off nuclear bombs is just normal."
"I mean… Yes, Kobra did escalate to that point eventually, but that was after decades of the police and the military not hunting them down."
"I'm sure they were trying."
"But if they'd been better resourced then they might have succeeded. And the League didn't stop them until after the first fusion bomb went off."
"The police didn't stop them at all."
I nod, taking a moment to get my thoughts in order. "So… Basically… You wouldn't have a problem with the Justice League having unlimited authority to do anything?"
"No, not really. I think they can be trusted. And I don't think anyone could really stop Superman anyway."
"I-. Could-." Not the point. "But just because they're well intentioned, that doesn't mean that they know everything, or have the best ideas about everything."
"It's not permanent, is it?"
"It could all be revoked with another act of parliament. In Britain, anyway. That's the beauty of the Westminster system; there's no limit on parliamentary sovereignty."
"Apart from the European Union."
"No, according to British law, everything they say can be ignored and overridden. It's not, because of the other consequences of doing that, but sovereignty rests in parliament. Until… This law goes through, then it'll effectively rest with Batman and Mister Atom."
She frowns. "Who's Mister Atom?"
I generate an illustrative construct. "This chap. He joined officially after we got rid of the Anti-Life. He's a robot who wants to take over the world."
"What does he want to do that for?"
"Because he thinks that he should because he's very strong and clever and he has a bit of trouble with the idea that those aren't the only determining factors. But he was pretty much immune to the Anti-Life and he's also… Very good at evaluating macro-level factors and monitoring the wide scale effects of our work."
"Oh. That sounds good."
"He also struggles to comprehend humans and humanity."
"Of course he does. It's only natural, isn't it? He's a robot."
"Yes, but it's a bit of a problem when he's got total authority to decide, for example, to demolish the Downs because they create inefficiencies in the shape of farmland."
"Do they?"
"Yes. Large flat fields are preferable to hilly terrain in almost all circumstances, and the thin soil covering chalk of the Downs is pretty bad for growing things."
"He can just… Get rid of hills?"
"Not easily. He'd need the help of a couple of other League members. But a hill is just a piece of rock or earth. Any sufficiently powerful magician could remove one. This is what I'm talking about. It's not just about getting rid of a few legal impediments to ensuring a full recovery of the planet. It's giving all of them the right to do anything."
"And we can't put it back afterwards."
"Not as it was."
"Oh. I'd have to think about that."
There are footsteps on the stairs, and then Beryl appears in full costume. "Think about what, Mum?"
"Apparently, we're giving the Justice League control of everything."
"Not quite everything, Mum. Batman's trying to arrange things so that we won't get hit quite as hard if something like this happens again. We'll probably end up doing a bit more farming in Britain but that's-." She looks at me. "That's why you're here. That's not what it says."
I shake my head. "I've got the updated wording. For some reason the world's being a little more generous, and I want you and Osiris to go through it to make sure that I'm not missing something before I go and talk to him about it. Oh, and… I was hoping to get your input on Dawn's situation."
She regards me levelly. "And you lost your telephone so you couldn't phone ahead. Hm?"
"No, sorry, that was my mistake. I don't see exactly what's at the other end, and I didn't think to.. scan…"
"Don't do it again." I nod as she thinks. "Okay. I've been wondering what Greater Kahndaq is like right now. Let's go."
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Darko
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Well there was the cake thing.
Plus the world may not have wanted to think about how close they could have come to some insane guy crashing the moon into the Earth.
"Any sufficiently"
Chojin Patriarch
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Damn, I can hear the 'middle-aged English aunty' voice in my head when the lady is talking. Little bit cockney, little bit Julie Andrews? And this might be a good chance to see if average people know what's going on, and what they might think about it...
Eh, you don't generally see the effects of governmental policy-making... Until it hits you in the hip pocket.
And not really having a way to take that authority away if they abuse it, that's the problem too.
It's human nature. Power Corrupts, and all that. Another reason to have checks and balances.
It's usually the cake thing, yes. Or in rarer cases, the eyes.
I mean, it might feel that way from the inside, but...
At best, it was more like suicide bombers taken up to eleven.
This was also sooner after the disaster was ended, so they weren't as together as they could have been...
Partly through corruption, partly through intimidation and blackmail... Lots of ways to control people when you aren't bound by conventional morals.
Which probably weighs on some of them, that sort of failure.
And there's the insidious lure of the matter. 'I think they can be trusted'. What if it turns out they couldn't be, but they were good actors?
That depends on what's done with that authority.
Which is probably tighter-knit than ever these days in that universe.
...Huh, I figured he'd be better known to the public, working with the League. Then again, he doesn't really do anything in the public eye...
Because he thinks he can manage it better than the humans can?
That is a big help, at least during the disaster and reconstruction.
Ah, popular science fiction, so much to answer for.
Rolling hills? I would think so? Pretty, but hardly good farming land unless you use levelled tiers.
Not by himself, but when he can direct people like Superman at the matter...
...This isn't some lingering aspect of Anti-Life, is it Some casual obedience to authority? Or perhaps the White Light left some lingering directions in Humanity.
I mean, a couple of skilled Lanterns could resculpt the land, but...
Ah, yes, that costume. Amazed her Mum lets her walk around in those pants.
Are you sure? Or did you only read the original draft?
...Or worse, everyone on Earth but him could be experiencing a blind spot about the implications of the League having that much authority...
Makes him look panicky and hesitant about having too much power. Might not be, but you never know...Presumably her mother's already had her say about the little matter.
It's funny how everyone's been going 'It's not that bad, surely?' Wonder if they're thinking OL is being a worrywort about nothing over this. Certainly, the majority of the League and their affiliates would surely never abuse these powers. It's just one or two that aren't so certain. Hopefully we'll see if the youngsters do find the new wording worrying or not.
Bigking321
I trust you know where the happy button is?
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It would be a bit of a twist if this all turns out to be completely fine, everyone is trying their best and in good faith, and it's just Paul being a bit paranoid because he's becoming too focused on macro level problems. What this will do to civilization instead of will it actually help right now.
Certainly a interesting thought. Not sure how it could be presented. Paul bursting into a room to present evidence that turns out to be totally benign?
This being a super hero setting it's far more likely something is mind controlling people or whatever.
Certainly a interesting thought. Not sure how it could be presented. Paul bursting into a room to present evidence that turns out to be totally benign?
This being a super hero setting it's far more likely something is mind controlling people or whatever.
Mr Zoat
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There was no risk of the moon crashing into the Earth.
Thank you, corrected.
Lord Ernest
At the End...
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Did he say where he came from unpromptedly? Because as far as I recall he still has his British accent, no?
For some reason it seemed weird that she was aware where he came from, rather than commenting on meeting another Superhero friend of her daughter.
Mr Zoat
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Beryl mentioned that he lived in Gotham, and he's been seen most often in the United States.