Thematic discussion about Worm

[Dame Verylin]

I am seeking other perspectives on the themes inside of W.B. work or what the work itself wants to say.

An easy example to make is how Kohei Horikoshi in his work My Hero Academia (BNHA) start with the very simple thematic premise that "anyone can be a hero" or rather that a hero can come from anywhere and then proceeds to undermine said premise by taking this quirkless character that wants to be a hero (the epitome of someone who cannot be a hero (or is not even considered viable in universe)) and gives them the Quirk of their idol the number 1 hero All Might.

So the premise is never tested or even properly constructed. It's the same as saying anyone can be a millionaire and then having Jeff Bezos adopt you. Anyone could have been Izuku ( for that one time or for that one opportunity) but everyone can't be him (as that one opportunity has been used by others) and the only thing proven is that the inheritor of One for All can be a hero instead of anybody.

Some easy things to take note of (than can be used to construct a thematic analysis):

Para site - Para human
The way trans humanism or rather parahumanism is approached and what it says.

The mutilation of self (or to be more accurate the sacrifice) and others in the pursuit of goals.

Difference between intent and action.

Isolation loneliness and estrangement (self imposed and of others).

Entities shoving their hand up characters asses and piloting meat puppets.

Cohabitational compromise in toxic relationships.

Shedding/mutilation/discarding of humanity and dehumanization.

Illegality and criminal conduct when systems fail or are designed to engineer negative outcomes for a significant amount of people and how the dismantling of said systems is viewed…

Etc



If any of the above speak to you, you can try composing a thematic statement with them and then give your reasoning or argument for why the thematic statement of Worm is X Y or zed.

 

[Soupervan]

That was a bit of a kick in the nads, MHA would have been much better if Izzie rejected discount Superman with a 'Fuck you, I'm Batman' much to All Might's confusion- at least I don't think Batman is common knowledge in that universe otherwise quirkless discrimination wouldn't be as severe.
Reminds me of the Dragon Ball series, as humans are quickly left behind in the dust and even the last holdouts Yamcha, Krillin and as much as he counts as human Tien all either die off or retire- do any of them permenently die? I don't even know, they became such non-entities and it was all about having monkey blood just like Naruto came to be who had the best chance for a bit of incest with a certain primodial goddess who turned out to be an alien, all about who had that bod, them eyes and such.
Anime is pretty anti-human ain't it, Satima comes closest to a regular human as the hero but even he has that weird clicking thing when he exercises and his limiter is broken- I suspect his eating of monsters is responsible, I bet he ate Crablante too- the first monster he faced and the only one he seemed to fight without super strength.. until he pulled out his insides by Crablante's eye.

 

[Upstairs]

An easy example to make is how Kohei Horikoshi in his work My Hero Academia (BNHA) start with the very simple thematic premise that "anyone can be a hero" or rather that a hero can come from anywhere and then proceeds to undermine said premise by taking this quirkless character that wants to be a hero (the epitome of someone who cannot be a hero (or is not even considered viable in universe)) and gives them the Quirk of their idol the number 1 hero All Might.

Click to shrink...

I don't think that's what MHA was about, at all. It's more about societal flaws, complacency, and how surface-level beauty or safety can make cover for a flawed society, and sometimes people don't get the help they need because of that.

 

[Dame Verylin]

That was a bit of a kick in the nads, MHA would have been much better if Izzie rejected discount Superman with a 'Fuck you, I'm Batman' much to All Might's confusion- at least I don't think Batman is common knowledge in that universe otherwise quirkless discrimination wouldn't be as severe.
Reminds me of the Dragon Ball series, as humans are quickly left behind in the dust and even the last holdouts Yamcha, Krillin and as much as he counts as human Tien all either die off or retire- do any of them permenently die? I don't even know, they became such non-entities and it was all about having monkey blood just like Naruto came to be who had the best chance for a bit of incest with a certain primodial goddess who turned out to be an alien, all about who had that bod, them eyes and such.
Anime is pretty anti-human ain't it, Satima comes closest to a regular human as the hero but even he has that weird clicking thing when he exercises and his limiter is broken- I suspect his eating of monsters is responsible, I bet he ate Crablante too- the first monster he faced and the only one he seemed to fight without super strength.. until he pulled out his insides by Crablante's eye.

Click to shrink...

It really was, the story goes so hard on him being quirkless and wanting to be a hero and through his youth being discriminated and bullied for not having a quirk and then his friend with a strong quirk wants the same and is already considered a shoe in by the rest of society and said friend even turns on him. They're made out to be this extremely big thing that he just doesn't have and there's this ache, this need inside of him to be a hero and when his saved his childhood idol tells him "no be realistic" you can't be a hero be a police man or firefighter.

But then his ex friend is in danger and he rushes in while all the heroes just watch him and that moment, that step he took, rushing in just cause with no plan because someone needs help. More heroic than everyone watching but failing and getting punished due to not having enough skill or power to properly be heroic then getting bailed out. Genuinely I thought All Might would apologize and tell him that though it would be hard he had a future as a hero.

Making a really nice arc where even when no one believed in him (even himself) he was still heroic and the words of his idol create a small core of resolution and conviction in him that makes him strive to outshine everyone else that is trying to be a hero in spite of not having a quirk.

In general I think of anime as more "interesting" so having normal people isn't that interesting in the same vein that having a +4 firesword is cooler than a +4 sharpness sword (its the same as a normal sword just sharper... so why not just a sword?(because cool and firesword is cooler than sword so...)) and since the inherent premise is magical or ficitionalish then you can link X or Y Clan or ability or bloodline or ...etc to a MacGuffin or plot point and it becomes easier to develop the story that way and makes it easier to suspend disbelief on the readers side because you have to eat the premise to engage with the work.

The same way that you have to accept trigger events give powers in Worm in order to engage with the premise. Or in the way it is presented Taylor has bug powers, because trigger events, because shard experiments, because... etc and stacking them on the initial premise becomes easier since they build on eachother.

But back to my Worm analysis. So themes are reocurring motifs or events and since there are many arcs you can have multiple themes per arc as well as per work.

One that I personally find interesting is "Heroes are bad". Both in Taylors personal experience and more in general for the Worm verse. Or rather that heroes as we know them and as Taylor thinks of them (at the start of the story) "are not allowed to exist". And it's presence resonates through all the arcs of the work.

A rather minor theme I feel but one that defines the setting.


Edit: Or rather would it be more accurate to say that "Heroes are dead" both metaphorically and literally with the death of Hero?

 

[Upstairs]

One that I personally find interesting is "Heroes are bad". Both in Taylors personal experience and more in general for the Worm verse. Or rather that heroes as we know them and as Taylor thinks of them (at the start of the story) "are not allowed to exist". And it's presence resonates through all the arcs of the work.

Click to shrink...

No, it's more that labels like that aren't quite right...most major characters in Worm are genuinely trying to do the right thing, but they're callous about it, helping some people and hurting others. And people slip through the cracks, the ones that need help don't get it. You can see this with Taylor, Amy, Tattletale and Reggie, Brian and Aisha. This is discussed at the very end, during the conversation between Taylor and Contessa.

 

[Dame Verylin]

I don't think that's what MHA was about, at all. It's more about societal flaws, complacency, and how surface-level beauty or safety can make cover for a flawed society, and sometimes people don't get the help they need because of that.

Click to shrink...

Well lets keep the alleged central theme in mind and develop from there, "Anyone can be a hero" (or "anyone is capable of being a hero"):

Now I won't reiterate my points at the start rather I'll be going through some events.

So Izuku's hero name is literally Deku which to him and those who bullied him means useless. To Uraraka this is instead inspiring because it sounds like dekiru (can do or able to) and he proceeds to reclaim this derogatory name that meant useless and give it a new spin as his Heroic identity quite literally saying "I am not (no longer) useless. I am (or will be) a Hero." by discarding this old identity that was assigned to him and that he internalized and instead assuming the new one.

Metaphorically this signals a transition from a useless quirkless nobody to a Hero aspirant.

Then we go to Aizawa and the conflict is "are you worthy of being a Hero?" are you better than at least one other student here? And he isn't not at that moment, not without being combat incapable. He can't use his quirk at a setting that isn't on or off but he figures out a way around it and with resolve and conviction marches onwards.

Then Katsuki where the conflict is an assertion "you (quirkless, nobody, loser )are not (worthy of being) a hero" ignoring the bullying previously when they find out he applied to U.A. because he can't be a hero.

And you can look at the rest of the work in that lense.

From a societal perspective Stein asserts whenever he kills or cripples a hero that "You (fake hero) are not worthy of being a Hero." Which is dumb since if someone is going to kill you you dont particulalry care if your savior did it for a +1 to pr or for the love of the game.

Quirk law says "You are not allowed to be a Hero" not without a license (only allowed to use quirk for self defense not defense of others).

The struggle with Destro and Redestro (as well as the metahuman liberation army) can be summarized as "everyone should be allowed to use their quirks" (from an ideological perspective) with some quirkcist packaging and other side issues. And society has comformed and said "only Heroes are allowed to use their quirks" and limited who can and cannot express this part of themselves that they were born with and to go against this is to be other and to be a villain and the villainization of people for the desire to express themselves or act in a heroic fashion without a license leads back to the premise since conflict is started due to the limitations imposed on everyone.


Of course please also keep in mind that said thematic statment was inmeditately undermined by the author but I hope that this has served a quick defense as I'm not delving into antithesis statements and foils but I hope to have successfully elucidated why "Anyone can be a hero" is a valid thematic statement to take from BNHA and why I think it was undermined and that while you may not see eye to eye with me on this you can view my perspective as a valid one.

Would you mind giving your own thematic statement or analysis and why for BNHA or Worm?

Opinions are well and valid but not really of use to me if I can't see where you're coming from since I'm searching for perspective.

 

[Upstairs]

Well lets keep the alleged central theme in mind and develop from there, "Anyone can be a hero" (or "anyone is capable of being a hero"):

Click to shrink...

Idk where you got this central theme from. Everything you discussed is asking the question "what does it mean to be a hero?" rather than giving the answer of "anybody can do it" - it's the journey to find the answer.

Edit: the themes I discussed about society are hammered pretty heavily by the dependency on All Might as the Symbol of Peace and how that complacency allowed for the various issues that created the League of Villains, plus Endeavor being a competent hero and a child abuser.

 

[Dame Verylin]

No, it's more that labels like that aren't quite right...most major characters in Worm are genuinely trying to do the right thing, but they're callous about it, helping some people and hurting others. And people slip through the cracks, the ones that need help don't get it. You can see this with Taylor, Amy, Tattletale and Reggie, Brian and Aisha. This is discussed at the very end, during the conversation between Taylor and Contessa.

Click to shrink...

So what would the thematic statement be?

And people slip through the cracks was discussed at the end between Taylor and Contessa? uhm if it was it slipped over my recollection and a rereading of 30.7, is there a paragraph you could point to and interpret for me as I failed to see it?

If instead its trying to do the right thing being discussed between Taylor and Contessa I can see it. Just looking for clarity.

What I mean by "Heroes are bad" or rather "Heroes are not allowed to exist" is the platonic ideal per say. What you or I think of and what Taylor thought Armsmaster and Alexandria were. Those shining bastions of morality that would find a way to triumph over evil.

Edit: And that such shining beacons of morality are not allowed to exist.

Idk where you got this central theme from. Everything you discussed is asking the question "what does it mean to be a hero?" rather than giving the answer of "anybody" - it's the journey to find the answer.

Click to shrink...

I feel that there is a wide gap in reading comprehension between yourself and myself and what you read and what I wrote and what we both read in BNHA. Do you feel this to be accurate?

So I suppose the answer to my question is that you can not see my point of view as valid?

I got the central theme from everyhting pre All Might giving Izuku his quirk. Which should not really be contentious as the question he asks him is literally "can anyone be a hero? can I (quirkless) be a hero?" and he literally says no. Then he changes his view when he sees Izuku behaving Heroically. Then I applied said theme and it kept cropping up.

The story naturally shifts once Izuku becomes a Hero and the central theme simmers on the backburner to "What is a hero/what does it mean to be a hero" and then it takes the forefront once more on and off again throughout the story. Can X be a hero (can anybody be a hero?), should X be a hero (should anybody be a hero?), and through the literal gatekeeping of heroism (vigilantes/quirklaws) and the various interpretations of what a Hero is of various characters and whether other people are heroes to them and what they do about it.

Edit: the themes I discussed about society are hammered pretty heavily by the dependency on All Might as the Symbol of Peace and how that complacency allowed for the various issues that created the League of Villains, plus Endeavor being a competent hero and a child abuser.

Click to shrink...

Okay so your themes are...

It's more about societal flaws, complacency, and how surface-level beauty or safety can make cover for a flawed society, and sometimes people don't get the help they need because of that.

Click to shrink...

So if those are the central themes of a work we should expect them to show up fairly often and be strongly emphasized throughout it especially in the first arc or to at least be present in it.

Where are your themes present in the first arc? (Measuring from the start of the series to the end of the USJ incident at the crisis simulation.)

 

[Upstairs]

And people slip through the cracks was discussed at the end between Taylor and Contessa? uhm if it was it slipped over my recollection and a rereading of 30.7, is there a paragraph you could point to and interpret for me as I failed to see it?

Click to shrink...

"Don't- don't regret it. Was- had to. Saved lives. But I would do different, given a chance."

She smiled, bobbing her head up and down a little. "It's always about the people, isn't it?"

"Protect some, pay less attention to others."

Her smile twisted. A little sad. "Can't bet on the wrong horse."

Not what I'd meant. "Giving too much power to wrong people. To bullies. With powers, bullies without."

She gave me a slightly surprised look at that. "I don't see that applying to Scion."

"Doesn't."

"He doesn't factor? He isn't a consideration, at the end?"

"Fighting him… always more about us than about him. Not a consideration."

Click to shrink...

Misuse of power, help some people and hurt others. Power, institutional or parahuman, does not help the people who need it.

I got the central theme from everyhting pre All Might giving Izuku his quirk. Which should not really be contentious as the question he asks him is literally "can anyone be a hero? can I (quirkless) be a hero?" and he literally says no. Then he changes his view when he sees Izuku behaving Heroically. Then I applied said theme and it kept cropping up.

...

So if those are the central themes of a work we should expect them to show up fairly often and be strongly emphasized throughout it especially in the first arc or to at least be present in it.

Where are your themes present in the first arc? (Measuring from the start of the series to the end of the USJ incident at the crisis simulation.)

Click to shrink...

Yeah, but the story doesn't just end when Izuku gets One For All. The question isn't closed. It's a journey to find the answer - what makes a hero?

As for those themes of a flawed society... Bakugo was a cool guy with a great power and a bright future, and then he almost died while the heroes kinda just waited for someone with a suitable power to try to save him. All Might being the Symbol of Peace on which Hero Society rested upon was also kind of a big deal during the USJ.

 

[Dame Verylin]

Misuse of power, help some people and hurt others. Power, institutional or parahuman, does not help the people who need it.

Click to shrink...

"Power, institutional or parahuman, does not help the people who need it." would be the thematic statement that you see in Worm?

Yeah, but the story doesn't just end when Izuku gets One For All. The question isn't closed. It's a journey to find the answer - what makes a hero?

As for those themes of a flawed society... Bakugo was a cool guy with a great power and a bright future, and then he almost died while the heroes kinda just waited for someone with a suitable power to try to save him. All Might being the Symbol of Peace on which Hero Society rested upon was also kind of a big deal during the USJ.

Click to shrink...

I agree which is why the central theme goes backstage as the next themes are explored and returns after other themes are explored.



In regards to Bakugo, I feel that to be a very exceptional case that is not representative of society overall. Due to slime guy having a heteromorphic quirk that allows him to literally envelop the hostage and risk any action against him harming said hostage. Perhaps if they were more competent he could have been saved by them but at the same time they were competent enough to not make the situation worse. Which Izuku absolutely did, now villain would have two hostages or worse.

For symbol of peace, ehhhh. The weight he has and that rests on his shoulders isn't properly explained. He's just a target if significant for being no1 hero multiple years in a row and being emphasized as the best hero. It could also be argued that it is a personal vendetta that AfO has against OfA and the societal implications are secondary.

So this flawed society can only be seen at those two point in the arc? And everywhere else it is..?


Viewed through the lense I propose as central it goes:

Deku can't be a hero since he is quirkless-can anybody be a hero?-his idol says no-he acts like a hero anyways-his idol says yes-he wants to be a hero or better one so trains-gets in-needs to prove worthy of being a hero-Baku denies him herohood-he asserts his right to be a hero-he must then prove that he can be a hero when it matters at USJ-He proves such.

And you can see how it all stems from the central theme I propose (which is of course undermined).

When the theme is society is flawed?

It feels more like a premise or part of the setting than a resonating thematic element. When viewed from the perspective of the protagonist (izuku) that the story is told from society is flawed does not seem to impact him? Society is flawed so he'll save his friend himself? Society is flawed so x y and z? He wants to be a hero and so he saves his friend. that order makes more sense from his perspective or from his rationale.

 

[Upstairs]

"Power, institutional or parahuman, does not help the people who need it." would be the thematic statement that you see in Worm?

Click to shrink...

Uh, you kinda just ignored all those other central themes I discussed. Most people are trying to do the right thing, helping some while hurting others. They do this by using their power, often misusing it. The people who most need help don't get it. This is before discussing any of the trauma-related themes.

In regards to Bakugo, I feel that to be a very exceptional case that is not representative of society overall. Due to slime guy having a heteromorphic quirk that allows him to literally envelop the hostage and risk any action against him harming said hostage. Perhaps if they were more competent he could have been saved by them but at the same time they were competent enough to not make the situation worse. Which Izuku absolutely did, now villain would have two hostages or worse.

Deku can't be a hero since he is quirkless-can anybody be a hero?-his idol says no-he acts like a hero anyways-his idol says yes-he wants to be a hero or better one so trains-gets in-needs to prove worthy of being a hero-Baku denies him herohood-he asserts his right to be a hero-he must then prove that he can be a hero when it matters at USJ-He proves such.

And you can see how it all stems from the central theme I propose (which is of course undermined).

When the theme is society is flawed?

It feels more like a premise or part of the setting than a resonating thematic element. When viewed from the perspective of the protagonist (izuku) that the story is told from society is flawed does not seem to impact him? Society is flawed so he'll save his friend himself? Society is flawed so x y and z? He wants to be a hero and so he saves his friend. that order makes more sense from his perspective or from his rationale.

Click to shrink...

It wasn't a hostage situation, the Sludge Villain was suffocating Bakugo, not making demands. Even if Bakugo could be considered a hostage, he was actively dying, so the risk of hurting him isn't that relevant.

It's kinda weird that you're insisting that there's only one central theme. Besides, that initial scene still fits "What does it mean to be a hero" better than "anyone can be a hero" because Izuku and All Might answer the question with "a true hero is someone who helps, no matter what." Izuku's actions remind All Might of that, it's what pushes All Might to move. All Might doesn't say "anyone can be a hero" he says "you can be a hero" as in, Izuku has the heroic spirit.

Contrast that with all the pro-heroes who refused to even try. Death Arms could have looked for a pole to try to pull Bakugo out. Kamui Woods could've done the same with his branches, though there's a chance he'd get hurt. Backdraft could've tried displacing sludge with his wind.

Idk what you're smoking if you went away from that scene thinking "ah yes, those pros were real heroes, there was nothing wrong with them waiting for someone else to come save the day, there are no flaws there at all"

 

[Dame Verylin]

It wasn't a hostage situation, the Sludge Villain was suffocating Bakugo, not making demands. Even if Bakugo could be considered a hostage, he was actively dying, so the risk of hurting him isn't that relevant.

It's kinda weird that you're insisting that there's only one central theme. Besides, that initial scene still fits "What does it mean to be a hero" better than "anyone can be a hero" because Izuku and All Might answer the question with "a true hero is someone who helps, no matter what." Izuku's actions remind All Might of that, it's what pushes All Might to move. All Might doesn't say "anyone can be a hero" he says "you can be a hero" as in, Izuku has the heroic spirit.

Contrast that with all the pro-heroes who refused to even try. Death Arms could have looked for a pole to try to pull Bakugo out. Kamui Woods could've done the same with his branches, though there's a chance he'd get hurt. Backdraft could've tried displacing sludge with his wind.

Idk what you're smoking if you went away from that scene thinking "ah yes, those pros were real heroes, there was nothing wrong with them waiting for someone else to come save the day, there are no flaws there at all"

Click to shrink...

Rather than there not being flaws in the scene my point is that it is not neccesarily representative of broader hero society in general or reocurrent enough to have society is flawed be a central theme from the first arc and that other themes discussed fit the mold better.

I'm also not sure what you're smoking when you say that I insist on their only being one central theme? I say that the central theme is X and other themes stem from the exploration of X and you can see that clear progression in the story and X occasionaly returns after Y and Z are explored and the understanding of X is deepened. I quite explicitly state that it takes a supporting role to other themes once Izuku becomes a hero.

What you mention is the natural progression of "can anybody be a hero?" which he answered no more specifically izuku can't yet he tried to be anyways and in that moment he was (if a failed one) by their definition of hero.

But well that enough of BNHA for now, we both see where the other one is coming from, no?

QUOTE="Upstairs, post: 12494910, member: 106920"]
Uh, you kinda just ignored all those other central themes I discussed. Most people are trying to do the right thing, helping some while hurting others. They do this by using their power, often misusing it. The people who most need help don't get it. This is before discussing any of the trauma-related themes.
[/QUOTE]

While these are reoccurring themes that you mention they sound very vague and not concrete at all. I didn't think you were outright stating them as central thematic components of Worm's story and rather mistook them as you spitballing.

Most people are trying to do the right thing - Doing the wrong thing for the right reasons.

helping some while hurting others - sacrificing others/self/morality/etc in order to help - you must sacrifice x y z in order to help

The people who most need help don't get it - ... not really sure how to transform this since I do not know exactly what you mean and reframing it could loose crucial meaning that you could associate with it.

But you can see how switching a few things around turns general and vague statements to more thematically resonant phrases?

For it to be a central theme you need to point at statement X and say Y, Z and M happened because of it. Or that X is present in Y,Z and M.

So for an example "Heroes are not allowed to exist" implies that the world seeks to tear heroes (platonic ideal down) or to corrupt them and in effect you see this with the death of Hero (character) the passing of the golden age of heroing, leaving BB to the dogs in project Terminus, ShadowStalker, Armsmaster being glory oriented and lacking a rigid moral compass (endbringer truce attempted murder of villlains via leviathan), Alexandria being a perpetrator in no good things, Legend and Eidolon being complicit in the same, Contessa, the whole wards program and complicity in the same, Dragon getting fucked by Saint (Dragon also committing human rights violations), New Wave imploding... and so on. The best thing you can say about characters like Triumph, Gallant, Battery & Assault, Dauntless, MM... etc is that they are innefective. If your goverment sponsored job is to be a hero and you are ineffective then you are not a hero.

And you can see where I get my theme from.

For an example of the second "Doing the wong thing for the right reasons", that's basically the shadow goverment speaking and Taylor becoming like so and it is present everywhere. Instead of things happening because of it you just look and it can be found.

 

[Upstairs]

Most people are trying to do the right thing - Doing the wrong thing for the right reasons.

helping some while hurting others - sacrificing others/self/morality/etc in order to help - you must sacrifice x y z in order to help

The people who most need help don't get it - ... not really sure how to transform this since I do not know exactly what you mean and reframing it could loose crucial meaning that you could associate with it.

But you can see how switching a few things around turns general and vague statements to more thematically resonant phrases?

Click to shrink...

...this just sounds like word salad. I'm describing the themes of Worm, are you just looking for snappy phrases? You keep asking for "thematic statements" and "thematically resonant phrases" are you looking for a cool-sounding phrase you can write a book report on, rather than a discussion?

You keep shifting things around too. I say societal flaws beneath the surface are a central theme, you ask for an early example. I give two, you say they fit other ideas better or they weren't obvious to you, I guess you weren't paying attention to Shigaraki literally talking about tearing down hero society by killing the Symbol of Peace and how everyone was dependent on All Might. There are multiple themes, this one is a constant one, and there are early examples, no matter how much you try to shift things around.

And you're insisting that "anyone can be a hero" was a central theme when it only seemed to appear once and has alternate interpretations, and then lambasting the story for continuing that?

And yeah, I'm expecting you to be familiar with the characters and the story of Worm. What I described can be applied to most major characters trivially. I did in fact give examples to clarify, outside of your preferred structure. Seriously, are you just looking for something to copy into a book report?