With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Handlewithcare]

It's one of those concepts that is easy to understand until you try to understand it, and you can have a dozen valid interpretations that conflict. I would suggest, as a starting point for discussion, that it is an idea of proper behavior of how an individual behaves. While 'honor' can be described in martial terms, it doesn't have to be. Furthermore, individual acts that could be considered honorable can be undertaken without any particular honorable motive, but if one consistently acts in an honorable fashion, they probably have a sense of honor; you can work to attain a reputation for honesty and fair dealing out of a self-interested desire to be able to take advantage of that when necessary, and your sense of compassion might urge you to spare an enemy who cannot harm you or help someone who can't help you in turn without thinking of how it's a matter of honor that you do so, but if you keep performing things like that you may just have a sense of honor and be in denial about it.

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See? Confusing.

I suspect that your issues with Lantern Xor may at least partially be because he seems to have an artificially made sense of honor that is meant as a form of social control rather than something more organic.

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I don't have issues with him? Are you confusing me with Maxx Crowley?

It depends on the code being followed if "Honor" is dumb or not. Hospitality (being a good host to even your worst enemy for at least a short while) was and sometimes still is part of honor, fighting "fair" and keeping promises are also very often thing considered honorable.

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Yeah, but I can do all these things without honor. It is not a consideration necessary to do the right or morale thing.

It just seems to be this little extra ego-boosting tack on. Unnecessary.

 

[Sockmonkey]

I admit, I am genuinely sick of Xor at this point. His overall character and personality are tiresome as all get out. But OL's gonna OL, and maybe this big lug can learn something.

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I have to disagree. He's growing in wisdom and developing as a character in general. The word "honor" gets tossed around a lot sure, but Xor's take on it and sense of responsibility make it into a proper ethical code rather than the semi-arbitrary set of rules some cultures use as a patch to keep everyone from killing each other.

 

[Mquz]

What I understand honor to be is the alignment of the self to a code, whether a moral one or a legal one. You pick what is right, a goal to strive towards and you don't break that code. What Xor seems to mean by honor is morality. He understands that different people have different morality systems, but he expects them to always if possible do what they consider to be right instead of what they consider to be easy. That is what I believe he means by honor. The key point, however, is that honor is not the moral system itself, but the following of it.
More accurately, what Zoat seems to have written them with is a sense of obedience to morality / law. Not a sense of obedience / loyalty to legal authority. That comes from the first. This isn't exactly honor in the classical military sense.

Edit: What Bushido and Chivalry both had was the need to obey authority over your own sense of morality. And now that I actually think about it, that is what Xor seems to have, though I would say that that is not "Honor". That is something else.

 

[SirKaid]

I raise my right and

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Should be right hand.

Seriously...honor, honor, honor.....is he Xor or Zuko? (Alright, you got me, I never watched more then an episode of Avatar)

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Avatar is one of the best cartoons I've ever seen and Zuko (especially in season two) is a large part of that. I highly recommend it.

 

[DrThoth]

The title of this episode confuses and intrigues me; the closest I can think of is something to do with the (evil) Morris dancers but unless Paragon spends only the first few updates in Vega then I don't see how that's possible.

I'm glad he's following up on his actions though- he should value that as a key distinction between him and well-meaning typical superheroes, which should be fresh on his mind after the Crime Syndicate episode.

 

[Simonbob]

Yeah, but I can do all these things without honor. It is not a consideration necessary to do the right or morale thing.

It just seems to be this little extra ego-boosting tack on. Unnecessary.

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As best I can tell, honor is about 3 things.

1)Trust. An honorable person is reasonably predicable, and can be worked with. They won't screw you over, etc. And, to people who have social skills, it generaly shows. This is an 'in person' thing.

2)Efficency. This in a big part of the military advantage. When you have limits on your actions, the choice is simple, thus the action is fast, and often more effective.

3)Reputation. An honorable person gains a good rep easily, they don't have to do anything except stick to their code. That can have all sorts of long term advantages.


It's true you don't need honor, but it still has serious upsides. It works better when you can be challenged directly on your actions, as most can't today.



You know, sometimes I think we need to bring back Duels. I say that not including my intense desire to stab a few people.

 

[Mquz]

Should be right hand.



Avatar is one of the best cartoons I've ever seen and Zuko (especially in season two) is a large part of that. I highly recommend it.

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On the other hand, don't watch Korra: it's not Avatar, but it's own thing, which I (as a huge fan of Avatar) found to be bad. It focused too much on teenage romance for one, and not enough on the humor or the adventure, or even the character arcs. It was too spread out in what it tried to do.
Most of the other things from the same people (Voltron, Dragon Prince) also tended to be closer to Korra. Haven't watched She-RA yet, but I heard some good things about the main villain actually being competent. For example, when his local officer (who has some sort of obsession with She-Ra) urges him to go after She-RA he replaces her as the local leader with someone less obsessive and orders her to go after everything else to do with conquering the world.

 

[Mquz]

As best I can tell, honor is about 3 things.

1)Trust. An honorable person is reasonably predicable, and can be worked with. They won't screw you over, etc. And, to people who have social skills, it generaly shows. This is an 'in person' thing.

2)Efficency. This in a big part of the military advantage. When you have limits on your actions, the choice is simple, thus the action is fast, and often more effective.

3)Reputation. An honorable person gains a good rep easily, they don't have to do anything except stick to their code. That can have all sorts of long term advantages.


It's true you don't need honor, but it still has serious upsides. It works better when you can be challenged directly on your actions, as most can't today.



You know, sometimes I think we need to bring back Duels. I say that not including my intense desire to stab a few people.

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Here's the slight difference, once you think about it. Xor doesn't just have honor. He has something like Chivalry, which stresses obedience to a leader. The two seem to be conflated here, whereas in true meaning they are not.

 

[w34v3r]

Off the top of my head, about the only thing I can think of that really stands out is the flying technique. Also worth noting that a majority of the owners of these techniques are planet busting Blood knights who are quite capable of beating the holy high hell out of OL, especially if he runs out of ring charge.

Beyond that, you already have all manner of shizo tech available to the public. Capsule corp being one of the biggest suppliers.

Then you have the fact that the average person doesn't have nearly enough Ki to actually perform said techniques, and that gaining enough can take decades of extreme effort. Even then, you still might not be able to. The former strongest man in the world, Roshi, can't fly. Hell, just developing a way to manipulate Ki into a destructive beam took him, one of the greatest who ever lived, 50 years to develop.

Finally, you have the fact that after all that effort, they will learn that; sorry, you weren't born better as a member of the ultimate fighting race. Which basically means you will NEVER catch up, or even be meaningful.

Plus, you're going to beat Goku "upside the head" for nothing thinking of doing something he doesn't' care about? Hope you have access to fucking amazing medical care...because Goku historically has the tendency towards majorly fucking up anyone who sufficiently pisses him off. To the point of casually destroying high tech armies, with one hell of a body count.

Also? It's Goku. Not exactly a 12th level intellect, hoarding advanced tech. Best he can do is point you towards Bulma.

Again, Blood knights. Vegeta and Piccolo will just kill you after a point, while Goku will probably just beat you into a coma. I really can not stress enough that there will be no "beating upside the head."

And if you DID manage to actually beat one into submission? Congratulations. At least two of those three will now spend every waking moment, devoting themselves to surpassing you in power for the sole purpose of kicking your ass.

Also, the only meaningful power tech in the world is whatever is in the Cyborgs known as Androids 17 and 18. Whose creator is not only dead, he was firmly not on the side of the planet busters you're going to try and "beat upside the head."

Plus, this OL would have no power battery. Now, while the DBZ universe almost assuredly has something that would recharge his ring. I would say that finding/developing that would be a much larger priority then pestering the cabal of face punchers who ONLY care about face punching as a rule. He's gonna need that recharge too...because the DBZ earth is even MORE of a death planet then the DC one.

Superman wants to make the world a better place. Goku wants to throw down with the strongest of the strong.

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I'm sorry but at what point does the ability to multiply your power several fold for short bursts, an energy blade that greatly widens the threshold people have pass to be able to ignore your attacks, actually trying to kill your enemy instead of playing around for seven episodes, or fucking instant teleportation not count as incredibly useful utility techniques?

Furthermore yes, goku has demonstrated time and again that he will in fact let people way down on the totem pole kick him around outside of combat. The point isn't to beat anyone into submission, it's to Gib's slap them when they're being stupid.

 

[Queshire]

On the other hand, don't watch Korra: it's not Avatar, but it's own thing, which I (as a huge fan of Avatar) found to be bad. It focused too much on teenage romance for one, and not enough on the humor or the adventure. It was too spread out in what it tried to do.

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I liked Korra. It did a lot for world building the setting. Also had a queer romance revealed in the very last scene which is largely considered poorly done, but hey, at least they tried.

 

[Mquz]

I'm sorry but at what point does the ability to multiply your power several fold for short bursts, an energy blade that greatly widens the threshold people have pass to be able to ignore your attacks, actually trying to kill your enemy instead of playing around for seven episodes, or fucking instant teleportation not count as incredibly useful utility techniques?

Furthermore yes, goku has demonstrated time and again that he will in fact let people way down on the totem pole kick him around outside of combat. The point isn't to beat anyone into submission, it's to Gib's slap them when they're being stupid.

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Having thought about it some more - further examples of schizo tech include a bunch of stuff by the red ribbon army, as well as all the technology that went into making Cell.

 

[w34v3r]

The problem on that end is less that people hoard the god tier super tech that lets you make arbitrarily powerful super beings, but more that they never do anything with it once they track down the data and lab of the mad scientist who invented it.

 

[Mquz]

I liked Korra. It did a lot for world building the setting. Also had a queer romance revealed in the very last scene which is largely considered poorly done, but hey, at least they tried.

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Personally, I feel like the world building of Korra involved a bit too much of stuff that happened long in the past. Most of the world building of Avatar was location based, giving a feeling of each location they went to before moving on fairly quickly. Korra spent too much time in one place, and had too little relevant world building. Most of the world building that happened revolves around the Avatar mythos, or about politics, as opposed to the mythos of individual world locations. The world of Korra might as well have only had 2 locations: Republic city and the South Pole. Avatar had a different setting every few episodes which allowed for new location building, which I like a lot more than world building.
Mostly though, Korra had too much drama and emotions for my liking. Too much about a teenager trying to find a place in the world for my high school self who was kind of closed off from the world at large. I was kind of very not social outside my small group of friends, and I really didn't care to hear about other people's emotions.
It was fine, just a bit boring.

 

[Queshire]

Fair enough. Different things for different peeps.

 

[Simonbob]

Here's the slight difference, once you think about it. Xor doesn't just have honor. He has something like Chivalry, which stresses obedience to a leader. The two seem to be conflated here, whereas in true meaning they are not.

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Chivalry's an honor code.


There are many honor codes, they vary from culture to culture.


I see honor as having a code, and living it. As such, Chivalry in a part of honor.

 

[Mquz]

Chivalry's an honor code.


There are many honor codes, they vary from culture to culture.


I see honor as having a code, and living it. As such, Chivalry in a part of honor.

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While I agree with your definition, I'd argue that honor is part of chivalry, but not the whole of it. Also, I think that you can't program just honor, since you need to program a code. So Xor is programmed with an honor code, not just honor itself. The honor would reinforce the programming by making him accept it as honorable.

 

[Senevri]

If I can't even manage to work out how to fix Tamaran, then I need to rethink my whole strategy.

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Is that a flag I see before me?

 

[Sceptic]

All this talk of honour reminds me of the following: "She offered her honour, he honoured her offer, and all night long it was honour and offer."

That is all.

 

[Ideomancer]

I never got "Honor". It seems such a dumb, convoluted concept that leads to only suffering and pain with nothing to show for it.

Mostly it seems to be used to manipulate young men into doing what someone else wants.

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The trouble is that 'Honor' is just a catchall term for the recognition of socially acceptable behavior. Anything can be 'honorable' seen through the lense of a culture that values it, and someone who doesn't value it can leverage it to encourage the behavior they want in people while minimizing their own obligation to it to keep up appearances. But that's all it is: a measure of personal social consonance. When you call a Klingon an honorable Klingon, it just means that he's socially consonant by the standards of Klingon culture, which may be brutish and small minded to an outsider, and by the same token what is honorable to a Human or a Vulcan may be seen as mystifying or weak by a Klingon. A Ferengi's honor, though they might not call it that, is measured at the end of a ledger and by his shareholders, and most outsiders would view it as little more than a litany of successful sinning.

The only things they'll all agree are honorable will be demonstrated through values that all cultures in any given exchange share, and it will rarely be concretely defined because those values are all contextualized by their cultures to begin with. Without the context of the moral and ethical judgements they have to make on a day to day basis, it's all fairly abstract.

So it's not that honor is a dumb, convoluted concept so much as it's a very limited oversimplification of a whole /bunch/ of convoluted concepts of varying moral and ethical substance often gauged outside of the milieu in which they are envisioned or enacted by their associated moral and ethical actors.

In this specific case, it could be said that what Xor is asking isn't really whether or not he is 'honorable', or what might 'dishonor' him in this situation, but simply questioning the extent of his personal responsibility within the conceptual framework provided by the sense of honor he was imprinted with, and exploring whether or not his solution for dealing with dishonorable/criminal elements might lead to more criminal behavior rather than curtailing it...which isn't a bad thought to be holding in mind while sitting in judgement of others. The punishment should fit the crime more than it is a crime itself, otherwise justice is just a shell game of wrongs disguised as redress.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Something seems to be missing from this.

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Thank you, corrected.

 

[Handlewithcare]

As best I can tell, honor is about 3 things.

1)Trust. An honorable person is reasonably predicable, and can be worked with. They won't screw you over, etc. And, to people who have social skills, it generaly shows. This is an 'in person' thing.

2)Efficency. This in a big part of the military advantage. When you have limits on your actions, the choice is simple, thus the action is fast, and often more effective.

3)Reputation. An honorable person gains a good rep easily, they don't have to do anything except stick to their code. That can have all sorts of long term advantages.


It's true you don't need honor, but it still has serious upsides. It works better when you can be challenged directly on your actions, as most can't today.



You know, sometimes I think we need to bring back Duels. I say that not including my intense desire to stab a few people.

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Honor also includes things like honor killings of family members or the suicide of japanese nobles. Bad things can also be "honorable".

And the duel comment is hopefully a joke?

The trouble is that 'Honor' is just a catchall term for the recognition of socially acceptable behavior. Anything can be 'honorable' seen through the lense of a culture that values it, and someone who doesn't value it can leverage it to encourage the behavior they want in people while minimizing their own obligation to it to keep up appearances. But that's all it is: a measure of personal social consonance. When you call a Klingon an honorable Klingon, it just means that he's socially consonant by the standards of Klingon culture, which may be brutish and small minded to an outsider, and by the same token what is honorable to a Human or a Vulcan may be seen as mystifying or weak by a Klingon. A Ferengi's honor, though they might not call it that, is measured at the end of a ledger and by his shareholders, and most outsiders would view it as little more than a litany of successful sinning.

The only things they'll all agree are honorable will be demonstrated through values that all cultures in any given exchange share, and it will rarely be concretely defined because those values are all contextualized by their cultures to begin with. Without the context of the moral and ethical judgements they have to make on a day to day basis, it's all fairly abstract.

So it's not that honor is a dumb, convoluted concept so much as it's a very limited oversimplification of a whole /bunch/ of convoluted concepts of varying moral and ethical substance often gauged outside of the milieu in which they are envisioned or enacted by their associated moral and ethical actors.

In this specific case, it could be said that what Xor is asking isn't really whether or not he is 'honorable', or what might 'dishonor' him in this situation, but simply questioning the extent of his personal responsibility within the conceptual framework provided by the sense of honor he was imprinted with, and exploring whether or not his solution for dealing with dishonorable/criminal elements might lead to more criminal behavior rather than curtailing it...which isn't a bad thought to be holding in mind while sitting in judgement of others. The punishment should fit the crime more than it is a crime itself, otherwise justice is just a shell game of wrongs disguised as redress.

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I like this description. But it also confirms my feelings that "honor" is a superfluous concept. Every civilised person can act decently without needing "honor" as an incentive or guideline.

 

[Gantradies]

I admit, I am genuinely sick of Xor at this point. His overall character and personality are tiresome as all get out. But OL's gonna OL, and maybe this big lug can learn something.


Seriously...honor, honor, honor.....is he Xor or Zuko? (Alright, you got me, I never watched more then an episode of Avatar)

That being said, adding more people to the same planet, kinda...bothers me. It just feels like it could go bad.

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to be fair, Zuko was horrifically traumatized- his lunatic father essentially shattered his entire world/self-identity out of petty spite over what was (especially given the kid's age) a completely reasonable bit of criticism on the current campaign-he genuinely felt it was all he had left >.<

 

[Maxx Crowley]

I'm sorry but at what point does the ability to multiply your power several fold for short bursts

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Which only one guy, who is an utter genius at fighting, only managed to learn after months of intense training, given by an actual god, on a planet with hyper gravity. Also? Said technique does immense damage to the body of the user.

What practical applications are there for the Kaio-ken that a normal, everyday person would need? Hard, physical labor comes to mind. But the only type that might qualify, there are literally machines created to do the work for you.

an energy blade that greatly widens the threshold people have pass to be able to ignore your attacks

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Practical applications please?

fucking instant teleportation not count as incredibly useful utility techniques?

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Which again, requires intense training to learn. With only one guy having done so. With a certain special sensory ability required to make it actually useful so that you aren't just flinging yourself into the aether.

Furthermore yes, goku has demonstrated time and again that he will in fact let people way down on the totem pole kick him around outside of combat.

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And again, it's Goku. Not exactly the brightest bulb in the bunch, who has a very narrow group of interests.

The point isn't to beat anyone into submission, it's to Gib's slap them when they're being stupid.

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Which of course, singles you out as an asshole. While in the process, pisses off a group of monstrously powerful people. Go ahead, slap Piccolo or Vegeta upside the head because they aren't doing something you think they should be doing.

 

[Coda]

Edit: What Bushido and Chivalry both had was the need to obey authority over your own sense of morality. And now that I actually think about it, that is what Xor seems to have, though I would say that that is not "Honor". That is something else.

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Chivalry was not a single code. It's "the quality that makes knights knightly." Some historical codes of chivalry actually DID emphasize doing what's right over doing what you're told; a good knight would protect his lord, even from the lord's own errors. Knights errant, in particular, put their entire focus on doing what was good for the people.

Honor also includes things like honor killings of family members or the suicide of japanese nobles. Bad things can also be "honorable".

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Seppuku being honorable makes sense. If you've been sentenced to capital punishment for doing something particularly bad, then administering your own punishment certainly sends a message to the world that you have taken responsibility for your actions. (To be fair that was sometimes merely a polite fiction, and people were sometimes forced to do so for no honorable reason; THAT'S just cruel torture. But that doesn't mean that it's automatically, universally bad. As always, culture has to be taken into consideration.)

Honor killings, on the other hand, were... really just vengeance and spite given a veneer of legitimacy. They weren't actually honorable, even in their own original contexts, just a way of trying to clean up after something dishonorable and head off a bigger scandal.

 

[Ardy]

Which of course, singles you out as an asshole. While in the process, pisses off a group of monstrously powerful people. Go ahead, slap Piccolo or Vegeta upside the head because they aren't doing something you think they should be doing.

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I think you're forgetting that only Goku can travel between planets. As long as Paul is doing FTL stuff there's basically nothing they can do save blowing up the planet they're on out of spite.

Or making a wish on the Dragon, but they have enough issues with the number they already need per year.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

I think you're forgetting that only Goku can travel between planets. As long as Paul is doing FTL stuff there's basically nothing they can do save blowing up the planet they're on out of spite.

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OL's ring charge will be a problem. If he starts off without a Lantern battery, any sort of conflict will be undesirable. With one, the battles will still be Endurance matches against him.

Hell, even Raditz with his 1200 power level was stated to move at FTL speeds. That could be a mistranslation in both the anime and manga adaptations that I have read/watched, but it is there.

Finally, just like how Black Adam was able to catch OL by hearing changes in the wind or something, I would not count out the Z-fighters sensory abilities allowing them to aim, not where OL is, but where he is going. It's basically already happened on Earth 16 after all.

There is also the question of what OL, the guy who doesn't like to fight, has that can actually hurt them. He isn't OL-16, so he doesn't have the exotic shizo tech stuff. I don't see his rail gun doing him much good, or surviving even a casual ki blast.

Or making a wish on the Dragon, but they have enough issues with the number they already need per year.

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Well right there. I imagine OL would be more interested in the magic of the dragon, then "Beating them upside the head" over their fighting techniques not being widely shared to a race that can't really even use them anyway.

 

[w34v3r]

Which only one guy, who is an utter genius at fighting, only managed to learn after months of intense training, given by an actual god, on a planet with hyper gravity. Also? Said technique does immense damage to the body of the user.

What practical applications are there for the Kaio-ken that a normal, everyday person would need? Hard, physical labor comes to mind. But the only type that might qualify, there are literally machines created to do the work for you.

Practical applications please?

Which again, requires intense training to learn. With only one guy having done so. With a certain special sensory ability required to make it actually useful so that you aren't just flinging yourself into the aether.

And again, it's Goku. Not exactly the brightest bulb in the bunch, who has a very narrow group of interests.

Which of course, singles you out as an asshole. While in the process, pisses off a group of monstrously powerful people. Go ahead, slap Piccolo or Vegeta upside the head because they aren't doing something you think they should be doing.

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Not getting the rest of your family and planet's population killed IS a practical application. Utility techniques don't mean non-combat, it just mean that the technique itself isn't a direct attack.

King kai has trained others in the multiplier technique in the past, and goku himself might be able to teach it. Hell most of the z-fighters have gone through the initial stages. Same for the teleport technique. Hell Goku's supposed fighting genius shouldn't even apply to that one.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

Not getting the rest of your family and planet's population killed IS a practical application. Utility techniques don't mean non-combat, it just mean that the technique itself isn't a direct attack.

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Who are you talking about here?

King kai has trained others in the multiplier technique in the past

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Who? Because I have read the entire manga, and no such person ever shows up.

goku himself might be able to teach it

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Should, but never has obviously.

Hell most of the z-fighters have gone through the initial stages.

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You'd think. But given that none of them have used either of King Kai's techniques, they obviously don't know them. Considering Piccolo's regeneration ability, and how he's been left behind. One would think he'd be using the Kaio-ken. But no.

Same for the teleport technique.

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Debatable, as we do not know anything about how the technique works.

Hell Goku's supposed fighting genius shouldn't even apply to that one.

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Again, highly debatable as Goku has shown throughout his entire life to either learn at a glance, or learn much more instinctively, how certain things work. All while those around him struggle to do the same.

 

[Sockmonkey]

When a set of rules, rather than ethics are the highest arbiter of behavior, it always leads to fucked up shit.
As D&D has shown us, there is no set of rules so all-encompassing that some asshole can't figure out how to game the system.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Is that a flag I see before me?

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I don't know. Are you looking at a flag?