Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

[Greymere]

While Glory isn't the worst Victory(Mother of Wolves says hi) it still leaves a bitter taste in my mouth because it means re-establishing the regime of the Hours and the cycle starting anew. Harmony feels like the happy ending to a fairytale and I crave it like The Moth does Glory(ha, the irony in this statement).

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I mean unless the Harmony ending manages to close off access to the Mansus both entirely and permanently, I feel like the cat's kind of out of the bag on that point.

 

[angelsadvocate666]

Just don't tell anyone that Outsider Blood can get them into Glory. Easy.

 

[Solace2117]

I mean, dealing with the Worm's attraction is the third point. Of all three endings, actually. Making them no longer a problem, or at least a manageable problem, is the goal. Each victory is just a different way of doing that.

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I know, I was more arguing against the idea that the Harmony ending is the most inherently "good" ending. I don't know for sure, but all the ending feel like scale of Velvet's in fluency for good or bad. The Wolf is just turn out the lights. The Moon seems to be reinstate the old order for good or ill with some input. Harmony is probably learning how to hide it with Velvet potentially as a guide, but Harmony doing most of the work. Glory feels like Velvet taking a more direct influence for good or ill.

While Glory isn't the worst Victory(Mother of Wolves says hi) it still leaves a bitter taste in my mouth because it means re-establishing the regime of the Hours and the cycle starting anew. Harmony feels like the happy ending to a fairytale and I crave it like The Moth does Glory(ha, the irony in this statement).

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I understand, but while I actually do think Harmony is a force of good because of the brighter influence of the world, I think it's a mistake to just assume that their ending would be better considering the darker nature of the other. I also think it's wrong to assume Glory is just Velvet reestablishing the old order. That feels more like the Moon ending.

 

[angelsadvocate666]

Yeah, Glory is establishing a new order of Hours and Names and Longs, though it's definitely gonna be the inheritors of the old order so there will be some influence. Probably in a similar way to how the Lithomachy had a new order replace the Gods from Stone but kept some of their laws.

 

[Greymere]

Yeah, Glory is establishing a new order of Hours and Names and Longs, though it's definitely gonna be the inheritors of the old order so there will be some influence. Probably in a similar way to how the Lithomachy had a new order replace the Gods from Stone but kept some of their laws.

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It is the same overall system though (Hours, Names, Long), which I think is what DO is taking umbrage with.

 

[angelsadvocate666]

That's fair. It's probably not completely restructuring things, I'll grant, though I'm not sure a complete restructuring is even possible. No more than rewriting all the laws of physics would be, anyways.

 

[Nevermort]

Just noticed that Names Velvet summons this turn match Lores Selene will train in.
I now imagine Velvet rapid summoning Names and throwing them toward Luna shouting "Only best tutors for my daughter!". Then running away to buy next month tickets to Manehatten, because Selene will need Winter tutor too.

Well, possibly not the next turn, but imagine if Luna would need Name teachers for her lvl 5 lores. Then Velvet will truly become motivated.

 

[Solace2117]

It's all potentially a scale though. A Velvet ascending as perhaps the first new hour with a few friendly Names and Alicorns following is more hopeful than one who ascends with no one behind her. Of course there's always the chance we're all wrong, but I'm mostly just speculating.

 

[DelightedOne]

I mean unless the Harmony ending manages to close off access to the Mansus both entirely and permanently, I feel like the cat's kind of out of the bag on that point.

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*Coughs politely*

And you knew during that short moment that if the Dreamlands ever had things its own way, one day it would surely turn the Mansus into itself.

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That is what I'm hoping happens.

I understand, but while I actually do think Harmony is a force of good because of the brighter influence of the world, I think it's a mistake to just assume that their ending would be better considering the darker nature of the other. I also think it's wrong to assume Glory is just Velvet reestablishing the old order. That feels more like the Moon ending.

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The Moon ending is literally bringing the old hours back, Glory is making it possible for Hours to rise again and considering how much History loves its patterns I doubt it would be much better than the old world, even with Harmony, because then it will have competition maybe even opponents that are against its influence in the world.

Well, MLP is literally good vibes, fuzzy feelings, friendship and happy endings while CS is... The opposite so yeah pretty obvious which one would bring a better ending.

 

[Greymere]

Well, MLP is literally good vibes, fuzzy feelings, friendship and happy endings while CS is... The opposite so yeah pretty obvious which one would bring a better ending.

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I mean, it feels kind of presumptuous to assume that the Harmony ending will be entirely free of... CS-ness. Considering that this universe is ultimately a fusion of both CS and MLP, and that for whatever Harmony's nature, it is a power born from a world whose fundamental underpinnings are the Lores (because if it weren't it'd be an Outsider ).

 

[Iustus Vitea]

For all of CSs' CSness it's also the side of the setting with more upward mobility and I mean that beyond just becoming an Immortal. The quest makes repeated mentions of this, hell it's Velvet's opinion too, that the Mansus gave Ponykind it's Gods, that the barring of the Glory is a great crime because it doesn't let one climb. That the Lores let Ponies be more than what race they were born as or what their cutie mark is.

Now I'm not saying it's all sunshine and roses, because it isn't, but the loss of the Mansus and of the Glory will be a terrible thing for them.

 

[DelightedOne]

Now I'm not saying it's all sunshine and roses, because it isn't, but the loss of the Mansus and of the Glory will be a terrible thing for them.

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Didn't they already lose it like millenia ago? Ponies were doing pretty well before the Lores(and the Wolf) came back for round 2.

 

[spiderhellian]

I have to say in retrospect it seems sorta crazy that we are just waltzing into the Ruined Church, with nothing but our stats and our rerolls to go off of!

We've got a long expedition lined up for next turn and we still have only 2 HP! We *might* decide to get an influence, which *might* help, but it truly feels like an act of hubris to venture in so nonchalantly.

Truly — think about how much we stress over 10-20% on a Name roll, compared to how little we worried about going on a Mansus expedition! When the latter is undoubtedly WAY more risky than the former!

 

[angelsadvocate666]

I did try saying something, but everyone was just like "eh, we didn't need it last time and don't know what we would need anyways."

 

[Greymere]

I did try saying something, but everyone was just like "eh, we didn't need it last time and don't know what we would need anyways."

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The "not knowing what we need" thing is a pretty big barrier to actually preparing. Considering 'preparing' basically amounts to... Influences. Throwing a dart at a random Lore and hoping it will be important is a pretty big ask for having to spend a total of 75 bits for a decent shot at a high-level Influence.

 

[Greymere]

We've got a long expedition lined up for next turn and we still have only 2 HP!

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Frangiclave can be pushed off to T21 if necessary. It was, in fact, the reason I decided I would rather try the Church this turn rather than sometime in the next couple of turns, because even if we fuck up and get wounded or Dread or w/e, we have the wiggle room to recover before we go Frangiclave-ing.

 

[angelsadvocate666]

The "not knowing what we need" thing is a pretty big barrier to actually preparing. Considering 'preparing' basically amounts to... Influences. Throwing a dart at a random Lore and hoping it will be important is a pretty big ask for having to spend a total of 75 bits for a decent shot at a high-level Influence.

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While true, as I have said before, there's a really good chance of it still having some use, and Winter especially is a pretty safe bet.

Though yes, not being sure is still a valid argument, hence the emoji.

 

[Pittauro]

From what I remember Ourladyofwires saying, I don't think it's as positive as you think it is. It sounded more like a dimming of the lights.

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It's also worth noting that "teaching Harmony to hide" was the Master's idea of a Harmony victory. The Master was, notably, a Moth Name. So there maaaaay have been a bit of bias involved

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As others have also said... that's what the MASTER thought reaching Harmony would allow.

For all we know we could go the very opposite approach, and STRENGHTEN the light of Harmony until it's capable of burning out all Worms getting close.

Here in the dark we will remain, where we cannot be seen, until at last we can no longer reject the Glory. Into the fire we fly.

That feels like what likely happened in canon, even... unless you accept gen5 as being a thing, I suppose. Which I heavily dislike, considering it's basically saying that years or at most decades after the end of mlp fim Equestria just... splits apart again.

While Glory isn't the worst Victory(Mother of Wolves says hi) it still leaves a bitter taste in my mouth because it means re-establishing the regime of the Hours and the cycle starting anew. Harmony feels like the happy ending to a fairytale and I crave it like The Moth does Glory(ha, the irony in this statement).

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To be fair Velvet is PRESUMABLY in charge there, and ruling Hours have a LOT of say in what happens.

Just noticed that Names Velvet summons this turn match Lores Selene will train in.
I now imagine Velvet rapid summoning Names and throwing them toward Luna shouting "Only best tutors for my daughter!". Then running away to buy next month tickets to Manehatten, because Selene will need Winter tutor too.

Well, possibly not the next turn, but imagine if Luna would need Name teachers for her lvl 5 lores. Then Velvet will truly become motivated.

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well, of course she needs Name teachers.

It has been said that only "Those Who Are Great" can give Sacraments. So the only other alternative possibility is that Selene might have her own Sacraments to pursue... which is something that, IN THEORY, might be possible for also our other followers, at least in theory...



all we know for certain is the following, from the old thread

-Exalted: Major Lore is Level 5, Minor Lore is level 3.

-In order for a character to advance a level, they must either learn from you, or from the Secret Library.

-A pony can only go up a single level per turn.

-Turning a character into an "Exalted" might require additional things.

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Unless things are changed, it seems pretty clear that TO START WITH we need to be lvl 5s ourselves. After that, we might STILL need more stuff.

Personally I feel like it should be possible for us to raise someone to 5 while being at lvl 4 4/4 (just missing the Sacrament), but Bird probably doesn't want to go that route

I have to say in retrospect it seems sorta crazy that we are just waltzing into the Ruined Church, with nothing but our stats and our rerolls to go off of!

We've got a long expedition lined up for next turn and we still have only 2 HP! We *might* decide to get an influence, which *might* help, but it truly feels like an act of hubris to venture in so nonchalantly.

Truly — think about how much we stress over 10-20% on a Name roll, compared to how little we worried about going on a Mansus expedition! When the latter is undoubtedly WAY more risky than the former!

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Eh, let's be fair: we Only ever failed TWO meaningful roles in all our time in the Mansus.

Once with the Wolf, losing 1 health, and once with the Blank Door, which delayed us by one turn.

And we have rerolls for EVERYTHING except Heart (which is admittedly the worst one to NOT have rolls for), but it's also been a thing with the last visit to the Red Church many rolls accepted multiple possible lores, right?

Actually, let me check what was required last time. Presumably the rolls can't be easier than those of the rest of the Church.

Ignoring Mareinette...

[Agree to see or refuse to listen?, cd ???]

[Roll: 73 + 13 (Magic) + 40 (Winter Level 4) = 126]

[Discovery or Violation?, cd ???]

[Roll: 29 + 14 (Learning) + 40 (Secret Histories Level 4) = 84]

[Velvet Covers invokes SECRET HISTORIES re-roll]

[Re-roll: 60 + 14 (Learning) + 40 (Secret Histories Level 4) = 114]

[The Things That Lust, cd ???]

[Roll: 53 +12 (Intrigue) + 40 (Moth Level 4) = 105]

[Kinship?, cd ???]

[Roll: 41 + 30 (Grail Level 3) + 40 (An Incarnadescence) = 111]

[You must not lick the floor, cd ???]

[Roll: 19 + 9 (Martial) + 40 (Winter Level 4) = 68]

[Velvet Covers invokes WINTER re-roll]

[Re-roll: 74 + 9 (Martial) + 40 (Winter Level 4) = 123]

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It seems like the DCs were mostly around 100? And we usually got a choice of two lores to use.

The grail one was, by the way, an "extra" reward. It gave a lvl 4 reagent.

All in all, if it's anything like the above, I'm not sure we can improve our odds by THAT much anyway. We can get ONE influence maybe (in which case I'd definitely take Edge, as that feels like the most useful one if we end up in combat, our "weakest" subject), but... well, we already roll fairly high, and have rerolls on everything.

Worst case, we probably get a wound or malus. We can take it. And if not, we can probably heal quickly anyway.

I did try saying something, but everyone was just like "eh, we didn't need it last time and don't know what we would need anyways."

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Frangiclave can be pushed off to T21 if necessary. It was, in fact, the reason I decided I would rather try the Church this turn rather than sometime in the next couple of turns, because even if we fuck up and get wounded or Dread or w/e, we have the wiggle room to wait.

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We might not even get a choice. We don't know how expensive the Frangiclave expedition is.

IF we can afford it and Church doesn't go badly, I'd prefer doing it next turn. But who knows, things with Baldomare's book and Biedde might change our priorities, or Copper might attack us and make herself a problem too big to ignore.

 

[Iustus Vitea]

Didn't they already lose it like millenia ago? Ponies were doing pretty well before the Lores(and the Wolf) came back for round 2.

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What I meant here was the permanent loss of the Glory and what it brings will be a terrible thing. Plus the Lores and the Glory haven't really done anything have they? Or rather the Lore's and the Glory can't do anything it's all the old monsters running around now that can. Were the likes of the Master and Marinette not to have made it to the present and someone stumbled on the Mansus on their own then the conversation would be entirely different no? Part of the reason Velvet has to be the one to reach the Glory and not even someone like Luna is allowed to sub in is, beyond this being a Quest and so that is our victory condition, the simple fact we aren't going to trust anyone with the ability to literally decide what the past present and future will be, to decide who rises to Hourhood and what happens to the current iteration of the Lores, will they stay or will they be subverted to something crueler or kinder?

Also, Velvet isn't the only one who holds the views I outlined in the previous post, other Ponies do too, hell it was one of the main draws of the cult.

 

[angelsadvocate666]

I will be entirely fair and point out that, yes, we have basically a seventy five percent chance of passing DC100s with rerolls, maybe a little higher, and even higher if the multiple lore options for one roll means we get even more rerolls if one lore fails completely. That's… honestly, a better chance than we had for doing stuff like finding the Blank Door. And with the wide spread, it's not like that chance will change for each roll. The only real problem is that there's multiple rolls at all, and we've seen that before too.

Like, I'm not gonna pretend that we're doing something extremely stupid, but it's still a little wild that we can look at a high level Mansus expedition and legitimately think YOLO-ing isn't that big a deal.

 

[spiderhellian]

Yeah, it's a very fair point that (Mansus) Expedition risks are quite illegible. We don't know for sure what lore we'll need, or what the DC is, or what the downside we're risking is...

But uncertain information isn't the same as no information. We can probably guess that Winter (used twice before) would be useful, or Grail (which ~saved us against Mareinette, even if the expedition didn't use it). They are explicitly very dangerous dreams!

I agree that we're quite strong -- we only have a roughly 20% chance of failure on a given roll, assuming DC 100, rolling +53 with reroll (Winning 3 of those in a row is roughly 50-50). What gets me is that was also ~the same odds we had in failing to summon Biedde with only an Edge 3 reagent, which there was substantial opposition to!

I guess we'll find out. Here's hoping that Velvet keeps up her OP streak.

 

[angelsadvocate666]

Wounds can be shaken off. Bits spent are gone forever.

 

[DelightedOne]

What I meant here was the permanent loss of the Glory and what it brings will be a terrible thing. Plus the Lores and the Glory haven't really done anything have they?

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Huh... I'm confused. I didn't understand much of this. Did you mean to say Harmony would take Glory and make it disappear or that it would stop ponies from reaching it(even though they can't reach it already)?

Because its not what I had in mind for this ending, it feels more like what the Forge of Days did(reshaping the Mansus) than it being destroyed it would change yes but it wouldn't disappear, it would become the Dreamlands.

One of THE rules we know is that there must always be a way to Glory and if the Dreamlands become the new Mansus then there would be a way to Glory there too, because Harmony can't reach Glory at all since it came from this world.
There is also the matter of Glory being unchangeable or else it wouldn't be Glory.

The Lores would most likely remain as they are, since only Hours have been able to change them and Harmony isn't an Hour, and there was no obvious subverting in all those years but rather a substitution with Honesty, Loyalty, Laughter, Generosity, Kindness and Magic being Harmony's version of the lores.

Huh, Harmony is sounding more and more like a god who was born after everything that happened in the Mansus and is just trying to make the world a better place with limited power.

 

[Solace2117]

As others have also said... that's what the MASTER thought reaching Harmony would allow.

For all we know we could go the very opposite approach, and STRENGHTEN the light of Harmony until it's capable of burning out all Worms getting close.

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I mean the Master's interpretation seems much more likely, but it's possible. I just push back against the idea it's all sunshine and happiness. It could be Velvet becoming an Alicorn and killing the others to keep it hiddenn.

 

[Greymere]

Huh, Harmony is sounding more and more like a god who was born after everything that happened in the Mansus and is just trying to make the world a better place with limited power.

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I think people did talk about that a bit when we saw the Mirror Door vision.

My current hypothesis is that Harmony was born from whatever the heck the Forge-of-Days was up to that motivated her to lock away Glory and generally throw the entire Mansus into chaos.

 

[spiderhellian]

Huh, Harmony is sounding more and more like a god who was born after everything that happened in the Mansus and is just trying to make the world a better place with limited power.

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Harmony --

An entity that touches every pony in its domain, showing them their path.

An entity that is at the center of the world, and yet seemingly so limited in how it can influence it.

An entity that cannot help but be radiant, visible and oh-so-attractive to the Worms.

That Harmony? I think that Harmony might be less like a god, and more like the Glory itself.

 

[Sveta08]

Simply put, on Manus expeditions, I believe the best we can prepare for is attain artifacts higher than Velvets lore. Which, she has raised significantly.

Artifacts require either bits to buy, or expeditions to find, which requires bits to fund. All things being equal, we simply won't know what's best to get there without going there.

Or, asking Mareinnete of course. But information has a cost, be it in AP or other things Mareinnete may want.
So with our funds spoken for, Mareinnete being herself, and Velvet being herself? It's either wait for a time that won't come when we have spare bits.... Or take a shot at it.

Just kinda how it goes.

 

[Nevermort]

I mean the Master's interpretation seems much more likely, but it's possible. I just push back against the idea it's all sunshine and happiness. It could be Velvet becoming an Alicorn and killing the others to keep it hiddenn.

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Unlikely. What we were told is that Dreamlands would subsume Woods first, so Master would be gone. Other Names would potentially follow as things of the past should make way for the new. Wolf is interesting obstacle, since agony does not have place in Harmony world, but there is no effective way to deal with him except for maybe resurrecting Sun-in-Splendor but Harmony probably does not wish to have such competitor. Unless it plans to become part of new one as final power up?
Have we heard about Watchman so far? He is important Mansus climbing related Hour and Velvet climbed to the top without encountering even a trace of him. This is suspicious. Or at least I would say so, if I decide to wear my conspiracy hat today

 

[Greymere]

Have we heard about Watchman so far? He is important Mansus climbing related Hour and Velvet climbed to the top without encountering even a trace of him. This is suspicious. Or at least I would say so, if I decide to wear my conspiracy hat today

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Well if we're putting on our conspiracy hats, perhaps he is hiding out behind the Tricuspid, waiting to open the final path to Glory for the first adept of this era to open the Gate

 

[DelightedOne]

Have we heard about Watchman so far? He is important Mansus climbing related Hour and Velvet climbed to the top without encountering even a trace of him. This is suspicious. Or at least I would say so, if I decide to wear my conspiracy hat today

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If the Second Dawn happened then the Pilgrimage happened too, maybe when The Door in the Eye went to Glory History repeated itself and he had the same fate as The Egg Unhatching, it would make sense when you remember their connection.