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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Discussion in 'Creative Writing' started by Mr Zoat, Jan 27, 2019.

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  1. NightmareWarden

    NightmareWarden Versed in the lewd.

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    No such thing. Mr Zoat has not crossed over with Shadowrun or Earthdawn. I was just putting it forward as an alternative destination to warhammer fantasy.
     
  2. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    I'm afraid that I'm not familiar with either of those settings.
     
  3. Ct613hulu

    Ct613hulu Experienced.

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    Why would the Silver City have authority over people who could not have possibly made any decisions regarding their religious affiliation? I can see people who don't consider themselves religious still following under the remit of a religion if they have subconsciously accepted its tenets or previously made irrevocable commitments. This couldn't possible be the case though for babies given their lack of understanding and inability to make meaningful choices. It makes more sense whatever happens to unaffiliated souls to happen to baby souls in the absence of intervention from mystical forces capable of interfering with the destination of souls. I would assume that this generally involve dissipation back into unstructured magical energy (or becoming one with the universe to be poetic) but it could also involve collection by anyone looking for unclaimed souls to use as magical resources or slave.


    I also can't help but consider whether Babies would even have souls in this setting. My understanding is that this setting defines Soul as essentially being magic that is gradually shaped into a constant and sustainable form by the activity of a sentient mind. It doesn't follow the contemporary practice of viewing the Soul as something that comes from the first moment of human existence and eternal in the absence of direct destruction by deific power. The result is that it should be possible for children to simply not live long enough to generate a stable soul that can continue existing past death. There are some incredibly dark implications with this idea, but it is not as if it would be relevant to the average person given the near-universal ignorance of the true metaphysics of the afterlife.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2022
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  4. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    Because they can.

    Because they'rethe most powerful group of divinities around and none of the other groups want to mess with them.

    Because they essentially work for the one responsible for creating the universe and probably have much more authority over everything compared to other divinities.

    No, babies are born with souls since they absorb the local magic around them.

    What you mentioned above applies more to people like Paul.
     
  5. Ct613hulu

    Ct613hulu Experienced.

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    My understanding is that every religious can provide evidence for being "real" because of how they drag things out of the Dream to support their internal logic. The Silver City works for the "one responsible for creating the universe" in the sense that they have a connection to the Source. There is no indication that this is in any way unique or that they have any special insight or powers not available to other pantheons.

    I don't think that it was ever indicated that Silver City could effortlessly overpower the other pantheons. It is possible that they would simply not face anyone willing to contest their claim on the unaffiliated souls, but that then brings up the question of whether they would even be interested in pressing such a claim. Why would the dogmatic and judgmental angels be willing to exceed their responsibilities by giving non-believers the reward offered to their most favored followers? What could be the benefit gained from taking responsibility for hundreds of millions or billions of baby souls that isn't based on some manner of horrible abuse?

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    My key point in regards to babies or young children possibly not having souls that exist past their death is based on the question of exactly how they absorb the local magic. I believe that absorption process would be based on the activity of sentient minds interacting the Dream. Making Souls the product of sentient existence can explain the proven ability of non-biological minds to support a soul and lets the story avoid the troublesome implications of having humans be the only ones with souls. It also connects back to the idea of the Dream serving as the ultimate source of magic.

    The consequence of this absorption process is that babies who died prior to having the opportunity to experience sentient activity would not generate a soul. They could hot have begun the absorbtion process as they never had the opportunity to interact with the Dream. Their existence would simply have been that of matter governed by the normal chemical and biological processes of a human body. This wouldn't impact their behavior as the possession or absence of a Soul seems to be something that is really only relevant in regards to interaction with magic and existence after physical death.

    We also know that the process of generating a soul is not instant because of how Paul didn't immediately gain a soul once he entered the Earth thaumosphere. The exact amount of time needed to generate a soul is undetermined, but we could be easily dealing with anything from weeks to years. It would all depend on what is needed to begin the absorption process and what factors influence the rate of absorption. Regardless of the exact time constrains, it can be assumed tremendous number of children would die before they absorbed enough magic to generate a fully developed soul.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2022
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  6. PrinceJonathan

    PrinceJonathan Versed in the lewd.

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    What if the Spear of Destiny actually belongs to Destiny, and it's really just a giant ink pen used to write in his book?
     
  7. Ngamer11

    Ngamer11 Experienced.

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Destiny simply has the book and reads it, but doesn't actually write anything himself? As in the book just has info in it on its own.
     
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  8. PrinceJonathan

    PrinceJonathan Versed in the lewd.

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    Well maybe the Spear is something he once used in the distant past, but then discarded it when it became redundant?

    Like can someone just ask him "Hey, is this yours?"

    "Oh you found my back scratcher."
     
  9. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    Except aside from the New Gods and their Old God predecessors, other pantheons seem to lack a similar connection to the Source, so it kinda is unique to the Angels and the Silver City.

    Plus it has been confirmed in this story that if an individual is not significantly connected to a non-Abrahamic religion, then they'll either be sent to Heaven or Hell instead of the afterlives of pagan deities.

    This is probably die to the reasons I gave above, like them being the most powerful group, or at least the one most connected to the universe since they channel the power of the being that may be behind the creation of the universe.

    They may be interested in those souls since that's what their boss told them to do, or because they view it as good to introduce them to the being that they view as the one true deity of everything.

    Unless they absorb magic while still in the womb and during that later parts of the pregnancy they form a soul.
     
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  10. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    Nah, you're thinking too atomistically. It's about having your soul bound to a mythos. One of the ways that can happen is personal devotion, buit equally it can happen by default if everyone around you is nominally affiliated with a particular religion. Or
    you can inherit if from your mother, due to most of the magic of your soul coming to you in vitro along with everything else.
     
  11. Ct613hulu

    Ct613hulu Experienced.

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    That has some troublesome implications for people who do not follow the dominant religion. Having your afterlife be determined by a religion you are not a part of seems like it would almost certainly go in some terrible directions. It also provides a powerful reason for atheists and agnostics to become more aggressive in their opposition to religious people as they cannot rely on a personal belief to bind them to a preferred afterlife.
     
  12. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    Not really. You can always pick something else, or reject your home culture viciously enough that it no longer applies.
    I can't imagine that there are many atheists who would complain about receiving something other than oblivion, but I'm not feeling sympathetic to those there are.
     
  13. Ct613hulu

    Ct613hulu Experienced.

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    I was thinking of all those religions which condemn nonbelievers to some variation of eternal torment. My perspective is that such suffering would be worse than oblivion, but I can see how other people might think differently.
     
  14. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    To quote Terry Pratchett: This explains why it is so important to shoot missionaries on sight.
     
  15. Someguy Somewhere

    Someguy Somewhere The Critical Fumbler

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    The thing that most people think of when they say that they totally have the spear of destiny.

    [​IMG]

    A Roman Pillum, which was more of a throwing javelin intended to stick into and weigh down the targets shield so they could not remove it easily.

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Rafin

    Rafin Not too sore, are you?

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    These kind of connections are basic 101 in sympathetic domain magic. I'm sure Hecate of all people will be able to take that into account as she weaves the ritual.
     
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  17. Rafin

    Rafin Not too sore, are you?

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    That's not a sensible correction. Germans naturally pronounce W as V in their own language. They have no problem whatsoever pronouncing an F. So "I walk into the forest" might become "I valk into ze forrest", but no German would ever mispronounce it as "vorest".

    What might make it confusing in the case of "Vater" and other actually German words starting with V is that in German spelling a "W" makes a V-sound, but a "V" can be either a V-sound or and F-sound with no underlying logic other than root words and etymology. But letters having multiple possible pronunciations with little rhyme or reason shouldn't be anything new for an English speaker.

    Source: Am German. Know decent English.
     
  18. Stsword

    Stsword Versed in the lewd.

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    Maybe not all of them, but it was a plot point in Vertigo that Lucifer opened the gates of hell and kicked all the souls out, we saw a lady reunited with her miscarried child.

    I don't blame Zoat for ignore that can of worms, though.
     
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  19. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    I don't understand what you're correcting.
     
  20. PDV

    PDV Revelation That Uncertainty Is Itself An Answer

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    Eris would certainly approve of him. Life and death both devoted to grabbing the table and spinning it in the air (somehow without entirely flipping it).
     
  21. Coda

    Coda Versed in the lewd.

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    Come now, Mr Zoat is most certainly not Wildbow.

    It's an un-correction, the person who had previously made comments on Blitzen's German accent was wrong.
     
  22. webxro

    webxro Benevolent Bystander

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    The fun part about this is that Hecate finally realized that with Paul around she's a scientist with virtually infinite resources, she just needs to ask for whatever she needs and she will receive it.

    Imagine being a goddess of magic and magical invocation suddenly a guy shows up and asks you to do this thing and then asspulls stuff you imagine you would need to make his project happen right away. And he delivers on the spot in a better quality that you would imagine.
     
  23. Michael Vonica

    Michael Vonica Know what you're doing yet?

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    I know what you're referring to, but not enough about it to judge how Wildbow would treat the topic of becoming a horribly malformed version of yourself. If I had to guess, it would probably involve a lot of suffering and self hatred, eventually leading to death or becoming trapped in an unfulfilling horrible life where even if the person can still function, they aren't doing it very well, and are probably unsatisfied or missing essential parts of themself.

    The thing I like about Zoat's work was the perspective of accepting and growing around those sorts of horrific adjustments. Like how Michael Siskin became a fear monster, but grew to the point of being able to go out in public without the risk of going on any sort of killing rampage. Did he reach a point of accepting many immoral things, probably up to and including torturing children? Probably. But even if he wasn't human anymore, he was still a functional being that could find its own place in the universe, and probably be happy with it, one day. Until he died.
     
  24. PDV

    PDV Revelation That Uncertainty Is Itself An Answer

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    It's not worse but it's more horrific, I basically agree. Kind of like Voldemort vs. Dolores Umbridge, you know? People hate Umbridge much more because she's more real - people have seen Umbridges in their life and she's them but so much worse, and the supervillain isn't.
    Shadowrun is fantastic, cyberpunk plus urban fantasy. Shadowrun Returns: Dragonfall and Hong Kong are excellent video games which are also very good intros to the setting. Dunkelzahn's Will is also awesome - implicit worldbuilding in the form of a dragon parceling out his hoard to various people and causes. (It's aesthetically similar to Dwarf Fortress patch notes.)
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2022
  25. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    It's kinda like how Eric Cartman became more terrifying after he got into a relationship with Heidi and emotionally abused her.

    Sure, everything he did before that, like murder, kidnapping, torture, xenophobia, etc., were all horrible, but because they were so wacky and unrealistic, we did not give it much thought and while we acknowledged it as evil, the fact that it was unrealistic did not inspire a feeling of revulsion we would typically have for such things, since a child basically dressing as Hitler and planning to genocide the Jewish populace is not likely to happen.

    But the emotional abuse and manipulation he inflicted on Heidi wasn't portrayed in a funny way and is very likely to happen, so because it feels more real, we are more likely to be sickened by it.
     
  26. Rafin

    Rafin Not too sore, are you?

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    I thought you actually changed those as suggested. I might have been mistaken.
     
  27. topin89

    topin89 Virgin Centrist

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    I disagree. Being an asshole is his defining trait. If for whatever reason he stops being it, it's less likely that he changed and a lot more that he is being brainwashed.

    It's true that major personality change impacts more, but it's not necessary. Let's go with Mass Effect characters. Tali had a long way from hating Geth to helping them, yet the way she interacts with is not much different from first to third part. Jack went from biotic psycho to biotic teacher of all things, yet she's still her rude and direct self when we see her. Mordin, Miranda. Liara is the only character I remember whose personality changed beyond cosmetics.

    I think change mean "what would a person do or won't do now compared to before". For Renegade, his latest change was not that he's rude again. It was him trusting Artemis with his real origin.
     
  28. Old Knife

    Old Knife Not too sore, are you?

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    Paul would probably have a better time asking Hecate for info on her.
     
  29. Cuchulin

    Cuchulin Versed in the lewd.

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    Always a good man to quote.

    Nope, it's both. "Untermensch" can fight the National Socialists, they can run from the National Socialist, they can hide from the National Socialists and at least some can even live a halfway decent life doing so as shown by Overgirl's "aunt".
    On the Hell Earth Hell has pretty literally come to Earth, legit Satanic cults are everywhere and at any moment Demon Lord Superman or one of his Demon possessed colleges might kill you just because. They might kill someone you care about or you pet just to see you suffer.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2022
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  30. Threadmarks: Coup Data (supplementary, Renegade Option)
    Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    27th October 2012
    18:58 GMT


    "And yet, you're still sane."

    Diataria Lysis regards Prime Minister Lantern Geoffrey Talbot with… I'm not sure. Between the cybernetic eyes and lack of eyebrows I'm having a little trouble parsing her expression. Fascination? Bewilderment? Raw animal lust?

    "So it seems." Geoffrey steps out of the upright scanning module, picking up his shirt from the nearby bench. He may be in his late fifties, but he's definitely made an effort to get back into the sort of physical shape that would allow him to meet the Metropolitan Police Force's requirements. And I know his ring doesn't help with that. "Is there anything else?"

    "How? How are you doing this?"

    "Tell me, Weaponer Lysis." He slides his shirt over his arms and starts buttoning it up. "Have you ever loved anyone?"

    "No."

    "Anything? Anything at all? Your.. homeworld, your culture, perhaps?"

    "Love? No."

    "Spend all of your time working in a place like this?" Geoffrey closes the top button and tucks the bottom of the shirt into his trousers. "I understand what it's like, making the job your life. But if you never value anything outside yourself… You'll never know the rage that you feel when someone maliciously takes it away from you from nothing more than spite. The rage you feel at yourself for not… Realising what was happening while you could still have done something about it. Or the certainty that as… Satisfying as it might be to try to beat the bastards to death with your bare hands, that would let a great many of those responsible escape."

    "So it must be directed inwardly and outwardly and once."

    "Grayven, what do the seven colours correspond to?"

    "Hate and anger, avarice, fear, will, hope, compassion and love."

    "Have you ever felt hope, Weaponer Lysis? Or made someone else feel it?"

    "I hope not."

    "Compassion, perhaps. Have you ever been guided by compassion?"

    "I'm a Weaponer!"

    "Seven emotions, Weaponer Lysis. I've felt them all in their turns, and I think I've inspired them, too. You haven't. Power rings require an understanding of emotion that you don't have. This technology?" He looks around at her workshop. "It can only get you so far. The problem is you."

    Her breath hisses in through her teeth, then back out again in a sharp huff. Then a hiss. Then a huff.

    "If I did not think that you were right, I would slay you where you stand."

    "If you weren’t making yourself useful I would kill you to bring peace to your past victims." He puts on his jacket. "Unless there's anything else, I have a country to run."

    "Go."

    I let him lead the way out of the laboratory. The complex has grown quite a bit since he first visited, and while I know that Weaponer Lysis prizes her intellect I'm not totally convinced that she'll make it to the firing range before she starts throwing the qwa-bolts around. Best that my body is between my ally and enough hard radiation to incinerate a man.

    Geoffrey doesn't say anything as he marches out, and I'm content to carry on at amble-speed. And I know that he's always angry, but I also know that certain types of encounter leave him more stressed than others. Weaponer Lysis would definitely be on his kill list if she appeared back on Earth, and he's not entirely happy about me keeping her on.

    Ground level outside of the headquarters of the Orange Lantern Corps (Tamaran Branch) has been nicely landscaped, a row of bushes wrapping around the walkway leading to a garden, though the view into the distance isn't as… Pastoral as it once was. With a few hundred Lanterns working the problem, Tamaran has skipped several stages of industrial development and gone straight onto post-industrial wonderland. I can see half a dozen space elevators from here with my unaided eyes, and if I turned around-

    I mean, if I turned around and could see through the building.

    -then I'd see the other half. All necessary to police Other Grayven's followers when they realise exactly what happened. And to keep some ships on station in case Diana needs the support.

    "Why do you keep her here?"

    "Because I don't trust the Controllers and can't make rings myself."

    "Is there really no one else?"

    "There's a planet full of Maltusians but I don't know any of them. And I can't think of any reason why they'd accept a subordinate position to work with me. This is all a big deal for me -and the people of Tamaran- but if the Maltusians were interested in empire-building then they'd have an actual empire."

    Probably best to take his mind off it.

    "How are things in Britain?"

    "Everything's on track. If I'm lucky, I won't have to stand for re-election. Certainly not more than one more term."

    Purging an entire civil service isn't something that happens over night. And it's not just the cannibal rapists; there were more than a few who… I believe that the term is 'Deep State'? People who joined a supposedly apolitical agency with the intent of controlling policy. Relatively petty stuff but they were in violation of their oaths and the law, so they had to go. Which in turn has made it quite a lot harder to actually run things, because joking aside middle managers do actually do things.

    I like the genomorphs, but I'm… A little uncomfortable to see them effectively soft couping my old country. Fortunately, events have energised the population to the point that there are plenty of people applying for the positions, but there are only so many people you can bring into an organisation at a time.

    "Economy's picking up, and we're back in the UN. As much good as that does us."

    As a bit of a reward for the total purge and corruption levels unknown to human societies outside of Africa -and wouldn't that have been a joke a year ago- Lex and I decided that energy costs in Britain would be noticeably lower than in other countries with equivalent economic development. Combine that with the income from ship production, the only reason the British economy wasn't picking up more is fear; both of what the former ruling class had been up to or the methods used to remove them.

    "Do you still need to be there ramming things through?"

    "Not quite so much, but I'd rather keep at it. I'd rather get it done faster and knock off quicker."

    "And then off to the Lords? I understand that they've acquired a few vacancies."

    "Hah. I'd rather not. But I do have unique experience to bring to the role. I'll see-"

    BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!

    "-how I-."

    We both generate construct armour as the boom tubes open.

    "What the devil? Grayven?"

    "I'm not expecting anyone. Who-?"

    A scintillating ray of light strikes me in the chest as some arsehole in white pyjamas flies through the closest aperture at high speed. Exposure to Misa allows me to sidestep, though not counter as he-

    "Hah!"

    -laughs and flies into the air.

    "What the hell are-?"

    The bush in front of us leaps up and attacks me!
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2022
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