With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Oh god, it's worse than we thought! He's using Corporate double-speak! Truly, he is a master of soul-deep torture! And apparently he's been doing this for over... Nine hours? Good lord... <Choke>

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

And a memetic hazard too? Good gravy.

It's insidious. A history lesson that bores right into your soul as it bores you to death...

At least the Renegade can resist attacks like this a lot better then the Paragon can.

And it's a more detailed history of Hell than we've heard before.

Of course they're hungry. They're interns and low-level data entry types, always eager for a promotion to real work.

That's... Concerning.

Which is especially worrying. Showing weakness in Hell is asking for trouble.

In other words: 'Yoink!'

In other words, waste not, want not. And nothing goes to waste around here.

Ah, I see... Something is working its way into him via the contract... Maybe?

...I'm sorry, can anyone translate Corporatese into English? Is it like Jive?

Indeed, it's not likely to expand the market without fresh blood, after all.

One guess who those are...

In other words, if a demon likes souls with a little piquancy of fear, terror and pain, then the 'seller' can oblige?

So don't expect to get out of damnation on a technicality.

...So, places like Purgatory? Neutral grounds in their respective spiritual cycle?

Well, glad that's all understood. Now, can yo stop with the corporate blather?

Heh. No escaping the wheel of Karma.

So presumably those who do visit without proper precautions for their safety aren't likely to leave again.

...After hearing all that? I doubt it.

But at what price, hmm? Because nothing in Hell is free...

Yuga Khan? Good luck tracking him down.

And since it's usually impossible to exit the Source Wall...

Unless it's part of a long-term play.

Such as improving the efficiency of Hell? Honestly, I doubt he really cares for it.

Not quite as catchy as 'Equivalent Exchange', but you do you, guys.

Hmm... Looks like the market is about to get lively. But is it going to be a bear market or a bull market?

Preferably before whatever's affecting him starts to stick.

Well, I'm sure all that exposition was incredibly boring for the Renegade. So much so he apparently started to lose touch with the Source. Maybe his Father should look up that sort of thing for the Anti-Life. My money is on the First trying some sort of spiritual attack vector through the Sympathetic link of the contract. For what reason? Who knows, he's evil.

 

Maybe it's part of an inherent contradiction.

Spoiler: Mad Ramblings Ahead

The Source via the New Genesis, Apokalypses and New Gods a says one thing, and The Presence via The Silver City, Hell and the Angels and Demons says something else.

Fundamentally their is conflict in how the (fictional) universe came to be, and how operates physically, magically and narratively.

To a New God it's like a conflict in their very Name, where their being and essence are raised into question.

Jack Kirby's creation of the 4th World vs Alan Moore's Hellblazer...and all the other writers and their little canon kingdoms in the DC universe.

While later writers try to marry the sides, to smooth the rough edges....somethings just don't fit. Some writers favour one side and some the other, and some try to attempt some sort of canon-welding to make it all make sense.

As an example: Who is Death, the Endless created by Neil Gaiman or Nekron Lord of the Dead as (re)interpreted by Geoff Johns? What is their relation to each other?

Renegade, as a New God of his own creation for the most part stuck to his lane, messing with the 4th world stuff with the odd dealings with the ...'Other Side of the Street' I think I'll call it. You can hand wave away demons and angels for a while, but once you start looking into the nuts and bolts of how heaven and hell WORK....you can't ignore the fundamentals of how the universe they are IN works. And then you start dealing with the mental error 404 of when it doesn't make sense in context to what you've been working with thus far.

Grayven here has different viewpoints that are overlapping each other, and conflicting.

A Nice Long Talk with Mother Box I think is needed.....it's the next best 'link' to the source that he has that is aware of the way the universe operates, short of trying to talk to some very big names. The Box after all understands the cosmology enough to Hush Tube from the physical universe to Hell, so it's got to have some idea of the relationship between realms. Grayven's been messing with a lot of things that don't often cross streams within DC comics for story telling and logic reasons, and the knock on effects of that might just have started to come to the fore.

 

Not so sure about that.

Every time the Paragon has been exposed to Anti-Life he has been shown as being able to resist it, while re egade seems more susceptible.

Granted, he was exposed to it by Darkseid.

Demons like Triskele can, or could, possess people that signed a contract with them, so the First may be able to influence someone that signed one with him.

It could also explain why it felt "personal" to the Renegade since Anti-Life doesn't seem to be sapient, bymut the First is.

Basically Mammon encourages them to use various methods as long as the job is done.

It's not like he can change his address.

I think it's happened in the comics.

Well the Renegade has a weapon that can kill him, so that's one reason.

 

More recently we have Barbatos - evil bat god from the Dark Multiverse that’s actually the Hyperadaptor vs Barbatos from Detective Comics, where he’s a very operatic and dramatic bat demon haunting Batman, like he was in the original story he appeared in. And they’re clearly different and semi-contradicting entities both inspired by the demon Barbatos that Thomas Jefferson and then the riddler summoned in Batman #452. It’s a bit of an inverse situation to that.

As for what’s actually happening - I think it’s something like the understanding of hell’s inner workings being damning in and of itself. As Graven says, demons are outside creation and therefore might not actually come from the Source.

 

Forgot, no. The website deleted it after I put it in and I didn't notice, yes.

Thank you, corrected.

 

This is giving me flashbacks to my economics classes and the history of money, especially the part of it before the widespread adoption of fiat currency.

The underlining structure would make sense with the currency of Hell being backed by mortal souls as a commodity rather than gold or silver. People dying and arriving at Hell is the point where more of the commodity enters the market and affects the perceived value of the currency, basically inflation.

I wonder how this system would work if it dropped the "commodity" and adopted a fiat system.

It's also weird in that mortal souls could add to the economy by providing services, being "consumed" during other activities, or through their labor (either voluntary or not).

 

...and this made me realize exactly what just happened there at the end.

It's a sudden bear market. Brought on by a sudden glut of fresh mortal souls entering the market and thus causing, effectively, inflation.

Something very, very bad has just happened on the mortal plane, and it's big enough to have effects on the economy of Hell.

 

Remember Paul's rather unique views on currency?

My guess? It's connected to that.

 

Starts as telepathy, but ends in a quote? I think this is a telepathy conversation, so it should be ** on both ends.

 

I was rereading and found that this link doesn't work.

 

Thank you, corrected.

 

Honestly, this place is arcane in nature. Architectural and even geological rearrangements are largely a matter of someone with enough power exerting themselves. Or several managing to work together.

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

Presumably someone erected it to add a visual metaphor for their ranking overall. The higher your palace is on the mountainside, the greater you are.

And only one palace would occupy the presumably narrow pinnacle. No need to guess whose.

I see the Renegade hasn't gotten the idea of Branding into his head. Joy of not focusing on the Orange Light Shaman skill tree in favour of the New God progression line.

Sadly, that's beyond even a God of your calibre, short of a massed effort. And it would simply reform sooner or later.

Don't be in such a hurry, he still has another week to go.

Ah, yes. The source of the blight. The center of the puckered arse end of the universe. .

It's interesting what you learn when someone tries to mind-whammy you, inadvertent or not.

So? Just kick a few to work out your annoyance.

Gee, how compassionate of you.

It's a shithole? Not even a nice one.

Can't fail a spot check if they're not trying to hide anything, after all.

If he were the sort to do work, the place wouldn't be in the shape it's in now.

Ah, yes. Frame it as a way to mess with them. That'll get him willing to consider it.

Of course, sooner or later, it'd hit a plateau of expansion. But by then, they might have settled into a more orderly arrangement.

Heck, you could call the ranking system, I don't know... The Wages of Sin, perhaps?

Someone so focused or specialised that they have no sense of ambition, no drive to do anything but tally this ranking system.

Indeed. Simpson probably could do it, actually. Either manage the system, or build something to do so...

Which speaks to his character. Stupid enough to get tricked, not once, but twice?

Remiel and Duma still hanging out down there, I'll bet. Likely by their toes.

And with a little mental adjustment, they'd probably do it happily, even.

Well, that would also be an option. Raze Hell and start over with a plan, rather than a cancer.

Oh, this should be entertaining, then.

Getting flashbacks to Doctor Strange...

I shudder to imagine what this looks like from the rest of Hell...

So, a little visit to the deepest pit of the whole shebang. Probably a lot less ice, mind. If anything, I'm picturing something more like an impact crater: Giant spires of displaced stone and crystal spreading out from the actual point he hit. No doubt the 'grim fortress' is his original palace, tucked away as a prison for their angelic 'guests'. Should be pleasant.

 

look -> looks

 

Thank you, corrected.

 

well maybe they were, but how many had that faith Anti-Life'd out of them? and of those still remaining, how many are culturally, subconsciously predisposed to jump on the Hellenism train once they see how quickly things are improving? they're literally surrounded by architecture and literature and history supporting the idea of Hellenism. this is assuming Themiscyra shows up and becomes an influencing part of the 'new' Greek culture, because if the Amazon myth is real, the rest of it must be too. honestly i would expect a Hellenistic Revival in Greece following the Anti-Life crisis, as people grasp at foundations of faith that haven't completely failed them. there's a huge potential for a new priesthood to rise, and OL hasn't exactly been mute in his endorsements of the Hellenistic system. from there, it only takes one or two zealots to start a religious wildfire.

also, i continue to enjoy Gravy auditing Hell, and am looking forward to the upcoming chapters.

 

Just hit the beginning of vega baby arc... Can I skip ahead reading just the renegade parts they seem to be diverting enough to be their own story

 

No, and if you do I will come to your house and drown your parrot.

 

Lucky guess on my emotional attachment.. I will continue the story as it was intended. Also it's been great btw good stuff

 

So, just putting this out there, but with the world in chaos, the SI could totally publish his superior 40k rule book and black library will be too busy being dead to stop him

 

I mean... Sure... But if copyright/trademark has collapsed that much everybody else will be free to do the same...

 

The joke

———

Vaernina

 

Are emotions (or rather, connection to a specific emotional energy field) the mark of personhood?

 

They're a requirement, but they're not the only requirement. From OL's experience with the plane of avarice, even animals have some connection to the Orange Light even if they're not sophonts.

 

It doesn't help that surviving copies are often well-used, so that their bindings are struggling somewhat to hold together. The joy of modern gaming printing, where books aren't expected to be kept around for twenty-plus years. Indeed, some struggle for the less-than-five years of an average edition.

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

And there's always the option of scouring the internet for scans and photos and building your own copy. Another thing I'd be tempted to do with a power ring.

Never mind things like the Virus Grenade, and it's bigger brother, The Virus Outbreak strategy card which even the designers admitted might have been a bit much, and 'jokingly' encouraged people to tear their copy of the latter card up!
(Edit: Corrected by Mr Zoat on the matter...)

The joy of pre-computer tabletop games development. When if someone made a change, it could go unnoticed until the book was printed.

I think someone got the logic of the sentence turned around in their head.

To be fair, a lot of rules the 'games design team' create aren't always play-tested well. Never mind that it's rare for them to play the way hardcore competitive players do with their optimisation processes... That's how you end up with some of the latest edition's oopsies. Like the Eldar's Phantasm stratagem, which the designers had to pulverise with the Nerfhammer

Spoiler: Phantasm Controversy Explained

Before, it could allow any Eldar unit to move 7" in the opponent's movement phase. One of the most abused targets of this was often a Fire-Prism grav tank who had advanced to take a potshot at an enemy, only to retreat into cover before it could be fired upon in reply or assaulted. Never mind things like Wraithknights doing a Phantasm Can-Can. And that's a gross over-simplification of the issue.
Competitive players would use these tactics, the 'Devastating Wounds' weapon ability and tricks like 'free' stratagems from character abilities, to lead them to an obnoxiously high win rate in tournaments. The September 2023 Balance Datasheet nerf involved restricting it to Infantry models only, making it still useful, but less so than before.
(Devastating Wounds was also changed to be less powerful too. Before and after, It triggers on a 6 to wound. But it went from dealing Mortal Wounds that could hop models - avoiding the usual limitation of high-damage weaponry which could only splatter one model at a time - to simply dealing unsavable wounds.)

The joy of using 'House Rules'. Especially if you're planning to teach someone how to play the game, and have to decide if you want to use the rules as written, or your own 'adjustments'.

The 90's were a hell of a time. Limited or no options for many armies' models, and an easy-going attitude from Games Workshop about creating your own models to fit things they haven't released. How far things have come... Now if it isn't in the current boxes they sell, you can't do it.

...And now she isn't sure if he's talking about the game, or himself.

Heh. If you released them onto the internet with clear labelling about them being 'one player's refinement', you'd probably revolutionise the 'Oldhammer' community. Not like he'd care about copyright infringement.

Huh, that's actually a thing. Looks even more complex.

Like you aren't paying close attention to the conversation. After all, you are emulating Tang before his little evil dosage, grognard side and all.

That depends on how goofy it is.

He wasn't trying to hide it, you know. Blanche's artwork, messy and sketchy as it is, may have influenced the game's mood and style, but it does look... Rough, sometimes.

Living the dream of many tabletop gamers there...

Hopefully with far superior binding that can withstand the kind of treatment a teenage girl might give it. And no stack of cards to go with it?

And of course, it's easy to create models of anything you or she might want to play from scratch. Man... We could have had Eldar Exodites that channelled Dino-Riders...

And hopefully refine the layout into a more sensible configuration. Some books of the era, like the Cyberpunk 2020 rules... Yow, all over the place.

For the time. I'll bet it was mostly done by one person who enjoyed the army, but understood game balance...

Tang, set the toy soldiers aside a moment... This is serious.

Ah, one of those reminders that Tang has a distinct view of the world.

Ah, yes. 'What measure is a man?' Or in this case, a synthetic teenage girl.

Ah, so it isn't just a matter of personality and mental complexity?

Oh, this will be good.

...It's a very good chatbot? Sister's brain is probably doing a lot of the heavy lifting behaviour-wise.

I suppose part of it comes from the elemental energies Reddy was built with by Morrow.

At least Tang is keeping an eye on her, I guess? I hope he is, anyway...

Heh. If you felt sassy, you could even back-port modern armies to 2nd edition.

Ah, vintage Warhammer. In all it's sometimes confusing glory. Good to see Artemis was serious about learning it, though. Wonder if she'd lean into the creative side of the hobby too, painting an entire army? Still, concerning to see that Tang has such a strict view of the complexity of artificial minds. I suppose being able to see their emotions or lack thereof makes it much clearer how 'alive' they are.

---

First link has an extraneous 'v' in the 'https' part.

... and all of the material relating to eldar.

 

I was under the impression that sapience required sentience. Was I wrong?

 

I... think emotional capacity, at least as far as having established preferences and counter-preferences is necessary to have enough of a self to be able to pursue self-interest, which is a prerequisite for personhood.

The way it's being described I'm not sure indigo includes even the most simple levels of adaptive neural learning, and instead it seems to run entirely off of a mix of designed list of contingencies, and possibly contingencies that design new contingencies without any particular scaling preference reaction to any variable, and instead use a flowchart of results rather than a variable preference measure when determining whether a new contingency is intelligently designed.

 

How many full ring-charges would it cost for Tangseid to do Paraphidian's eyeballs-all-over the-world trick, to find all extant copies of the manual and assemble an amalgamated copy?

 

The problem with sapience/sentience is that English is a messy language and people (often vigorously) disagree about what words mean. Both words have a history of being used interchangeably to mean 'of human level intelligence' starting in early sci-fi books (1940s on) and most dictionaries will point that out. However, many people argue that the 'true' meaning is linked to the etymological root of the words where sentience implies feeling and sapience implies thinking.


Modes of thought/computation without emotions (such as certain theoretical AI) have been described as sapient but not sentient however that depends on observing the narrow definition of those words that far from everyone agrees with, or even know as being a thing.

That said, the MC's insistence on not refering to Indigo as 'she' leans into the whole thing I'm not going to mention.