With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Chojin Patriarch · Jan 14, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
Day 22
28th March 2013
06:53 GMT

Aaah-hhhaaa-haaa-aaaaah…

"…soul futures, which naturally requires an extensive network of information brokers for the participants to predict market fluctuations."

Oh god, it's worse than we thought!

He's using Corporate double-speak! Truly, he is a master of soul-deep torture! And apparently he's been doing this for over... Nine hours? Good lord... <Choke>

First came the First, cast beyond God's sight.

Huuh. Ah-aaaaah…

And a memetic hazard too? Good gravy.

Then came the Second and Third, to counterbalance the First.

No-no… Come on. focus.

It's insidious. A history lesson that bores right into your soul as it bores you to death...

Then came the Lightbringer, seeking escape and knowledge. He was a part of Creation, and bright Creation with him.

I try… Pushing what Mammon told me from my mind, but it's… It's not working. It's worming into my soul. It's not the Anti-Life, it's…

At least the Renegade can resist attacks like this a lot better then the Paragon can.

It's personal.

From the bridge emerged Demonkind, forever apart from and yet a part of Creation.

And it's a more detailed history of Hell than we've heard before.

I try focusing on my surroundings. This part of the… Exchange, is more modern than most of Hell. A bit… Eighties stock exchange, simple computer screens and chunky mobile telephones. Demons in shirts cluster in various places, and the screens are showing… Images and bar charts that don't… Don't mean much to me.

The demons are… Cooperating. I don't see any sign that they actually like each other, but files and minor coins are being exchanged… Peacefully. Neither party is reluctant. And I can see demons who are clearly female and not succubae, which is interesting. Male and female alike look like thinner versions of Blathoxi, but… Hungrier.

Of course they're hungry. They're interns and low-level data entry types, always eager for a promotion to real work.

The Nature of Demonkind is not the Nature of Mankind, for Mankind is part of Creation and Demonkind is apart from Creation.

It's like a… Like something's pushing my soul away from the world. And if I had to guess why… My goal is to unify all peoples in a perfect society, even though I know that is impossible. But here the Source itself is tell me to take a hike! Why?

That's... Concerning.

Nggh.

Blathoxi regards me curiously. Yes, regardless of my spiritual defences he's almost certainly picking up on the fact that something is wrong with me.

Which is especially worrying. Showing weakness in Hell is asking for trouble.

"What… Ah, what's the payout? How are their investments realised?"

"If the investor owns an asset when the debtor exits the market, then their assets pass to the investor."

In other words: 'Yoink!'

"They take their soul."

Blathoxi rolls his eyes. "By default, a standard position involves all assets, material and immaterial. Naturally, taking possession of worldly goods has the benefit of reducing energy wastage in satisfying future infernal public offerings, but we also have a sales department."

In other words, waste not, want not. And nothing goes to waste around here.

H-rg-uh.

It nearly fits. Nearly. There shouldn't be anything eldritch about providing a service, but it… Still…

Ah, I see... Something is working its way into him via the contract...

Maybe?

"I'm… I'm sorry, I thought that you answered requests using magic. Are you saying that you buy solutions to requests using previously acquired assets?"

"Lord Mammon encourages us to multi-vector product delivery. So long as the requested service is rendered, it hardly matters how."

...I'm sorry, can anyone translate Corporatese into English? Is it like Jive?

"Can external parties make investments?"

"Certainly. This is a free market, after all."

Indeed, it's not likely to expand the market without fresh blood, after all.

"And can the initial party buy their…" Ah, I can't come up with the investor-speak word. "Their soul back?"

"Again, certainly. It's actually quite common with our senior clients."

One guess who those are...

"Cult-leaders offer sacrifices?"

"Among other techniques. While the seller sets the price, souls which acquire… Certain resonances, accumulate value. It may well be in an investor's long-term interest to liquidate their position and re-enter the market at a later stage."

In other words, if a demon likes souls with a little piquancy of fear, terror and pain, then the 'seller' can oblige?

"And… If a cult-leader buys himself out of all outstanding contracts and then dies..?"

"We do have a sin-eating department. It's a specialist market, since it doesn't help with people who want to reach the Silver City."

So don't expect to get out of damnation on a technicality.

"So cult-leaders wound end up here anyway."

"Not here. Having purchased their own stock the Exchange has no hold on them. Usually they would end up in Err, and thus are no longer our proper concern."

...So, places like Purgatory? Neutral grounds in their respective spiritual cycle?

"So… If a Hindu magician wanted to ensure a more advantageous reincarnation…"

"I believe that you understand the service."

Well, glad that's all understood. Now, can yo stop with the corporate blather?

"And what do the Hindu gods think of that?"

"We haven't had any complaints so far. It only allows them to escape the consequences of their vices. It does not help them achieve nirvana." He stops, smiling faintly. "In fact, I rather suspect that it works against it."

Heh. No escaping the wheel of Karma.

"Do such mortals ever come here?"

"Only very occasionally. Quite a collectors item."

So presumably those who do visit without proper precautions for their safety aren't likely to leave again.

It's… So… Logical. But the rest…

"I don't suppose that we can offer you a deal of some sort, can we?"

...After hearing all that? I doubt it.

"My soul goes to the Source when I die. I wouldn't want to cheat you."

"We do broker other sorts of deal, Mister Grayven. We can acquire almost anything."

But at what price, hmm? Because nothing in Hell is free...

I raise my eyebrows. "The bones of my grandfather?"

"For a fee, we could investigate."

Yuga Khan? Good luck tracking him down.

"My grandfather is on the Source Wall. And he was alive when he went on there."

"For a large fee, we could investigate."

And since it's usually impossible to exit the Source Wall...

"I appreciate the offer, but I have nearly everything I want, and what's left I'll get from the First."

"That would be out of character for him."

Unless it's part of a long-term play.

"We have an agreement, and everything that you and Mammon… And my general demonology reading says is that the letter of the agreement is binding. If the First wants to pay the penalty on a contract solemnised with his own magic… Sure, he could, but I just don't see how it's worth it. I don't think I've angered him enough."

"Then the gain will be in some other area of his operations."

Such as improving the efficiency of Hell? Honestly, I doubt he really cares for it.

I shrug. "Sure, I assumed that. But that's the point of capitalism, isn't it? A series of voluntary exchanges where each gains something they value more than what they give up?"

He nods. "We use that phrase extensively in our advertising literature and sales spiels."

Not quite as catchy as 'Equivalent Exchange', but you do you, guys.

"Come no now. Everyone knows that you shouldn't trust advertisements." Or demons. "That's barely even lying. I-."

I look around as a door slams open and a demon in a state of some distress rushes in, a bundle of paper clutched in one hand. He heads over to a cluster of investors and… Starts talking. We're too far away for me to easily hear-.

Hmm... Looks like the market is about to get lively. But is it going to be a bear market or a bull market?

Numbers on the screens start to move a lot.

"Excuse me, Mister Grayven. We've finished our tour, and I believe this needs my personal attention. One of my aides can show you out."

Preferably before whatever's affecting him starts to stick.

Well, I'm sure all that exposition was incredibly boring for the Renegade. So much so he apparently started to lose touch with the Source. Maybe his Father should look up that sort of thing for the Anti-Life. My money is on the First trying some sort of spiritual attack vector through the Sympathetic link of the contract.

For what reason? Who knows, he's evil.

Someguy Somewhere · Jan 14, 2024

Ngamer11 said:
This is an interesting reaction. Could New Gods have some kind of problem about hearing this story for some reason? Or is this only for the Renegade?

Maybe it's part of an inherent contradiction.

The Source via the New Genesis, Apokalypses and New Gods a says one thing, and The Presence via The Silver City, Hell and the Angels and Demons says something else.

Fundamentally their is conflict in how the (fictional) universe came to be, and how operates physically, magically and narratively.

To a New God it's like a conflict in their very Name, where their being and essence are raised into question.

Jack Kirby's creation of the 4th World vs Alan Moore's Hellblazer...and all the other writers and their little canon kingdoms in the DC universe.

While later writers try to marry the sides, to smooth the rough edges....somethings just don't fit. Some writers favour one side and some the other, and some try to attempt some sort of canon-welding to make it all make sense.

As an example: Who is Death, the Endless created by Neil Gaiman or Nekron Lord of the Dead as (re)interpreted by Geoff Johns? What is their relation to each other?

Renegade, as a New God of his own creation for the most part stuck to his lane, messing with the 4th world stuff with the odd dealings with the ...'Other Side of the Street' I think I'll call it. You can hand wave away demons and angels for a while, but once you start looking into the nuts and bolts of how heaven and hell WORK....you can't ignore the fundamentals of how the universe they are IN works. And then you start dealing with the mental error 404 of when it doesn't make sense in context to what you've been working with thus far.

Grayven here has different viewpoints that are overlapping each other, and conflicting.

A Nice Long Talk with Mother Box I think is needed.....it's the next best 'link' to the source that he has that is aware of the way the universe operates, short of trying to talk to some very big names. The Box after all understands the cosmology enough to Hush Tube from the physical universe to Hell, so it's got to have some idea of the relationship between realms. Grayven's been messing with a lot of things that don't often cross streams within DC comics for story telling and logic reasons, and the knock on effects of that might just have started to come to the fore.

Darko · Jan 14, 2024

Chojin Patriarch said:
At least the Renegade can resist attacks like this a lot better then the Paragon can.

Not so sure about that.

Every time the Paragon has been exposed to Anti-Life he has been shown as being able to resist it, while re egade seems more susceptible.

Granted, he was exposed to it by Darkseid.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Ah, I see... Something is working its way into him via the contract... Maybe?

Demons like Triskele can, or could, possess people that signed a contract with them, so the First may be able to influence someone that signed one with him.

It could also explain why it felt "personal" to the Renegade since Anti-Life doesn't seem to be sapient, bymut the First is.

Chojin Patriarch said:
I'm sorry, can anyone translate Corporatese into English? Is it like Jive?

Basically Mammon encourages them to use various methods as long as the job is done.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Yuga Khan? Good luck tracking him down

It's not like he can change his address.

Chojin Patriarch said:
And since it's usually impossible to exit the Source Wall...

I think it's happened in the comics.

Chojin Patriarch said:
For what reason? Who knows, he's evil.

Well the Renegade has a weapon that can kill him, so that's one reason.

Mquz · Jan 14, 2024

Someguy Somewhere said:
Maybe it's part of an inherent contradiction.

The Source via the New Genesis, Apokalypses and New Gods a says one thing, and The Presence via The Silver City, Hell and the Angels and Demons says something else.

Fundamentally their is conflict in how the (fictional) universe came to be, and how operates physically, magically and narratively.

To a New God it's like a conflict in their very Name, where their being and essence are raised into question.

Jack Kirby's creation of the 4th World vs Alan Moore's Hellblazer...and all the other writers and their little canon kingdoms in the DC universe.

While later writers try to marry the sides, to smooth the rough edges....somethings just don't fit. Some writers favour one side and some the other, and some try to attempt some sort of canon-welding to make it all make sense.

As an example: Who is Death, the Endless created by Neil Gaiman or Nekron Lord of the Dead as (re)interpreted by Geoff Johns? What is their relation to each other?

Renegade, as a New God of his own creation for the most part stuck to his lane, messing with the 4th world stuff with the odd dealings with the ...'Other Side of the Street' I think I'll call it. You can hand wave away demons and angels for a while, but once you start looking into the nuts and bolts of how heaven and hell WORK....you can't ignore the fundamentals of how the universe they are IN works. And then you start dealing with the mental error 404 of when it doesn't make sense in context to what you've been working with thus far.

Grayven here has different viewpoints that are overlapping each other, and conflicting.

A Nice Long Talk with Mother Box I think is needed.....it's the next best 'link' to the source that he has that is aware of the way the universe operates, short of trying to talk to some very big names. The Box after all understands the cosmology enough to Hush Tube from the physical universe to Hell, so it's got to have some idea of the relationship between realms. Grayven's been messing with a lot of things that don't often cross streams within DC comics for story telling and logic reasons, and the knock on effects of that might just have started to come to the fore.

More recently we have Barbatos - evil bat god from the Dark Multiverse that's actually the Hyperadaptor vs Barbatos from Detective Comics, where he's a very operatic and dramatic bat demon haunting Batman, like he was in the original story he appeared in. And they're clearly different and semi-contradicting entities both inspired by the demon Barbatos that Thomas Jefferson and then the riddler summoned in Batman #452. It's a bit of an inverse situation to that.

As for what's actually happening - I think it's something like the understanding of hell's inner workings being damning in and of itself. As Graven says, demons are outside creation and therefore might not actually come from the Source.

Mr Zoat · Jan 14, 2024

Darko said:
Forgot to threadmark.

Forgot, no. The website deleted it after I put it in and I didn't notice, yes.

Ngamer11 said:
That should say 'on'.

Darko said:
"and brought"
"telling"
"deals"

Thank you, corrected.

KaiKolo · Jan 14, 2024

This is giving me flashbacks to my economics classes and the history of money, especially the part of it before the widespread adoption of fiat currency.

The underlining structure would make sense with the currency of Hell being backed by mortal souls as a commodity rather than gold or silver. People dying and arriving at Hell is the point where more of the commodity enters the market and affects the perceived value of the currency, basically inflation.

I wonder how this system would work if it dropped the "commodity" and adopted a fiat system.

It's also weird in that mortal souls could add to the economy by providing services, being "consumed" during other activities, or through their labor (either voluntary or not).

rdfox · Jan 14, 2024

KaiKolo said:
This is giving me flashbacks to my economics classes and the history of money, especially the part of it before the widespread adoption of fiat currency.

The underlining structure would make sense with the currency of Hell being backed by mortal souls as a commodity rather than gold or silver. People dying and arriving at Hell is the point where more of the commodity enters the market and affects the perceived value of the currency, basically inflation.

I wonder how this system would work if it dropped the "commodity" and adopted a fiat system.

It's also weird in that mortal souls could add to the economy by providing services, being "consumed" during other activities, or through their labor (either voluntary or not).

...and this made me realize exactly what just happened there at the end.

It's a sudden bear market. Brought on by a sudden glut of fresh mortal souls entering the market and thus causing, effectively, inflation.

Something very, very bad has just happened on the mortal plane, and it's big enough to have effects on the economy of Hell.

Vaermina · Jan 14, 2024

Chojin Patriarch said:
Well, I'm sure all that exposition was incredibly boring for the Renegade. So much so he apparently started to lose touch with the Source. Maybe his Father should look up that sort of thing for the Anti-Life. My money is on the First trying some sort of spiritual attack vector through the Sympathetic link of the contract. For what reason? Who knows, he's evil.

Remember Paul's rather unique views on currency?

My guess? It's connected to that.

scooterboo · Jan 15, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
**There was an Aztec? I thought they were from further back in time than that."

Starts as telepathy, but ends in a quote? I think this is a telepathy conversation, so it should be ** on both ends.

Ngamer11 · Jan 15, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
Prep Time (part 8)

I was rereading and found that this link doesn't work.

Mr Zoat · Jan 15, 2024

scooterboo said:
Starts as telepathy, but ends in a quote? I think this is a telepathy conversation, so it should be ** on both ends.

Ngamer11 said:
I was rereading and found that this link doesn't work.

Thank you, corrected.

Mr Zoat · Jan 15, 2024

Day 22
28th March 2013
09:23 GMT

I'm sure this mountain wasn't here before.

Pandemonia is the place of residence for those demonic rulers who don't have a pressing reason to be somewhere else. And it's usually a secondary place of residence for those who do. Neron has a palace here, but prefers to spend time in Gull because…

I don't know. Probably because no one cares about him incinerating plebs but if he tried that around here then someone in his weight class might get antagonised. It's supposed to all be palaces tailored to the demonic potentate in question. The mountain is new.

Puts me in mind of the time I went down Cadair Idris with Dad. It's clearly not had paths cut in it for most of the slope, and I'm scrambling up scree with a rather long drop if I miss my footing. I mean, I'm not a squishy human any longer and I'd probably walk away with more damage to my pride than anything else, but it's still… Quite a drop.

And over the… Huh. Yes, like Cadair Idris there is an actual path carved into it once you get high enough. Not a direct path, possibly to give the walker time to appreciate the view.

In this case, the view of everyone else's palaces, far below.

They escorted me out of the exchange pretty quickly, and I wasn't able to spot what they were worried about. Or.. excited about. I'm still in contact with Challenger Mountain so if there'd been a major incident then Jean would have notified me. I can only assume that it's some sort of trading bubble thing.

I mean, it's not going to be that, but with my only avenue of investigation being to grab and assimilate and my deal with the First only okaying me for self defence or 'disrespecting the First', I don't really have another avenue to follow up.

It is a pretty nice mountain. You can't hear the screams from up here, or really see the racks of soulbound skin they like to use as awnings as anything other than a blob of colour.

This place has really got to go.

I spot the First's porcelain-white concubine doll things before I see the man himself. The two closest to the edge of his leisure… Gazebo perched on the mountaintop are fanning him with fans made of some sort of large feather. A little closer and I see two more massaging him while another feeds him peeled grapes. He's in his pink-skinned bodybuilder shape, and gives the impression of being completely at ease.

"Grayven." He doesn't look up. I'm not even sure that he opens his eyes. "Finished already?"

"No, oh First." A sex mannequin walks over with a drinks tray and silently offers one to me. I give her a small smile and a shake of my head. "I've hit a bit of a roadblock, and I think I need to learn more about Masak Mavdil in order to progress."

He grunts quietly as they work the muscles of his right shoulder.

"What for?"

"While I can complete a report for you without visiting it, I… I'm increasingly coming to believe that some of Hell's fundamental issues stem from it not connecting to the universe. And I think I need to get a feel for the place in order to… Well, probably to plot around it."

"It's got angels in it."

"Yes?"

"Pointless, annoying things. Every time I see one it puts me in a bad mood."

"But… Surely they're removed from God's sight there, and that fills them with horrible agony?"

"Only thing that makes it tolerable."

The massequins back up a step, and he levers himself into a sitting position, looking at me for the first time.

"So apart from that, what insights have you gotten from this place?"

He looks away as one of his toys begins oiling his right arm.

"It appears that demons have a high time-preference."

"They're short-sighted lackwits. I had spotted that."

"It's not just that. Management is lacking. There's no avenue for advancement, and they focus more effort on attacking rivals real or imagined than actually improving Hell. I assume that you don't want me to just suggest that you do a lot more work?"

He raises his left eyebrow and gives me a decidedly unimpressed look.

"I was going to suggest some sort of status thing. If you set in place some sort of system for determining which region had the best results in a given year and then assign status to their ruler based on that. You'd need to hold a feast or two a year and seat them in that order. The winner eats with you, the loser gets a plate of slime."

That gets a small smile.

"So they vie for your favour and win by achievement, rather than fighting for status both against each other and their more ambitious subordinates. I find superiors stamping on capable minions quite frustrating. There are dozens of human countries where insecure rulers treated their ministers and generals like that, and every single one does worse than its neighbours with actual rules and laws."

His serfs continue to oil the First as he considers my words.

"And how would you have me judge between them? I don't want to spend all of my time actually watching those morons."

"I suggest automating a process for detecting shifts in Hell's magic field. Or you could literally count soul income. Ultimately, it doesn't matter, as long as you're upfront about it. And if you don't want to-" Do your job. "-take on extra work, it needs to be something that either can be automated, or where you can leave it to someone who can be trusted not to-."

"Heh." He smiles at me. "'Trusted'."

"Not to do a bad job or lie. Not 'trusted' in the sense of generally being honest, 'trusted' in the sense of enjoying having powerful demons unable to hurt them and being afraid of his reports. Or of being so obsessed with precision that it wouldn't occur to them to lie. Or some sort of machine."

"I couldn't trust the Renderers to make one."

"The Renderers did try to kill a man who was making demonic machinery. He could probably build something, and he'd be too terrified of you to not do exactly what you asked."

The First frowns. "And of course this is the first I'm hearing about it. Is there anything about this man I might find amusing?"

"John Constantine got him killed. Twice."

"Hah!" He smiles as they finish up oiling his legs. "He thought they were friends, didn't he?"

"That he died is how you tell. Of course… If we're going to Masak Mavdil, it occurs to me that angels are generally known for honesty and precision."

"No."

"Compelling them to aid in improving Hell would be an ironic punishment, oh First."

The gynoids back away as the loincloth-clad First checks their work. With a nod, he approves.

"Even if they were the best option, it wouldn't be worth dealing with them. I'd rather destroy the whole system."

I nod. "As you will. Will you be accompanying me?"

"Yes. I've never seen how gods react to it. I don't often get to see genuinely new things."

"And how-?"

He looks upwards and the mountain bends, the land below us wheeling and twisting until-. A desolate plain and a grim fortress appears… Next to us.

I'm just about able to prevent myself vomiting from travel sickness.

"There." He casually steps off the mountain and onto the plain. "Let me show you Hell's birthplace."

Chojin Patriarch · Jan 15, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
Day 22
28th March 2013
09:23 GMT

I'm sure this mountain wasn't here before.

Pandemonia is the place of residence for those demonic rulers who don't have a pressing reason to be somewhere else. And it's usually a secondary place of residence for those who do. Neron has a palace here, but prefers to spend time in Gull because…

Honestly, this place is arcane in nature. Architectural and even geological rearrangements are largely a matter of someone with enough power exerting themselves. Or several managing to work together.

I don't know. Probably because no one cares about him incinerating plebs but if he tried that around here then someone in his weight class might get antagonised. It's supposed to all be palaces tailored to the demonic potentate in question. The mountain is new.

Puts me in mind of the time I went down Cadair Idris with Dad. It's clearly not had paths cut in it for most of the slope, and I'm scrambling up scree with a rather long drop if I miss my footing. I mean, I'm not a squishy human any longer and I'd probably walk away with more damage to my pride than anything else, but it's still… Quite a drop.

Presumably someone erected it to add a visual metaphor for their ranking overall. The higher your palace is on the mountainside, the greater you are.

And over the… Huh. Yes, like Cadair Idris there is an actual path carved into it once you get high enough. Not a direct path, possibly to give the walker time to appreciate the view.

In this case, the view of everyone else's palaces, far below.

And only one palace would occupy the presumably narrow pinnacle. No need to guess whose.

They escorted me out of the exchange pretty quickly, and I wasn't able to spot what they were worried about. Or.. excited about. I'm still in contact with Challenger Mountain so if there'd been a major incident then Jean would have notified me. I can only assume that it's some sort of trading bubble thing.

I mean, it's not going to be that, but with my only avenue of investigation being to grab and assimilate and my deal with the First only okaying me for self defence or 'disrespecting the First', I don't really have another avenue to follow up.

I see the Renegade hasn't gotten the idea of Branding into his head. Joy of not focusing on the Orange Light Shaman skill tree in favour of the New God progression line.

It is a pretty nice mountain. You can't hear the screams from up here, or really see the racks of soulbound skin they like to use as awnings as anything other than a blob of colour.

This place has really got to go.

Sadly, that's beyond even a God of your calibre, short of a massed effort. And it would simply reform sooner or later.

I spot the First's porcelain-white concubine doll things before I see the man himself. The two closest to the edge of his leisure… Gazebo perched on the mountaintop are fanning him with fans made of some sort of large feather. A little closer and I see two more massaging him while another feeds him peeled grapes. He's in his pink-skinned bodybuilder shape, and gives the impression of being completely at ease.

"Grayven." He doesn't look up. I'm not even sure that he opens his eyes. "Finished already?"

Don't be in such a hurry, he still has another week to go.

"No, oh First." A sex mannequin walks over with a drinks tray and silently offers one to me. I give her a small smile and a shake of my head. "I've hit a bit of a roadblock, and I think I need to learn more about Masak Mavdil in order to progress."

He grunts quietly as they work the muscles of his right shoulder.

Ah, yes. The source of the blight. The center of the puckered arse end of the universe.

.

"What for?"

"While I can complete a report for you without visiting it, I… I'm increasingly coming to believe that some of Hell's fundamental issues stem from it not connecting to the universe. And I think I need to get a feel for the place in order to… Well, probably to plot around it."

It's interesting what you learn when someone tries to mind-whammy you, inadvertent or not.

"It's got angels in it."

"Yes?"

"Pointless, annoying things. Every time I see one it puts me in a bad mood."

So? Just kick a few to work out your annoyance.

"But… Surely they're removed from God's sight there, and that fills them with horrible agony?"

"Only thing that makes it tolerable."

Gee, how compassionate of you.

The massequins back up a step, and he levers himself into a sitting position, looking at me for the first time.

"So apart from that, what insights have you gotten from this place?"

It's a shithole? Not even a nice one.

He looks away as one of his toys begins oiling his right arm.

"It appears that demons have a high time-preference."

"They're short-sighted lackwits. I had spotted that."

Can't fail a spot check if they're not trying to hide anything, after all.

"It's not just that. Management is lacking. There's no avenue for advancement, and they focus more effort on attacking rivals real or imagined than actually improving Hell. I assume that you don't want me to just suggest that you do a lot more work?"

He raises his left eyebrow and gives me a decidedly unimpressed look.

If he were the sort to do work, the place wouldn't be in the shape it's in now.

"I was going to suggest some sort of status thing. If you set in place some sort of system for determining which region had the best results in a given year and then assign status to their ruler based on that. You'd need to hold a feast or two a year and seat them in that order. The winner eats with you, the loser gets a plate of slime."

That gets a small smile.

Ah, yes. Frame it as a way to mess with them. That'll get him willing to consider it.

"So they vie for your favour and win by achievement, rather than fighting for status both against each other and their more ambitious subordinates. I find superiors stamping on capable minions quite frustrating. There are dozens of human countries where insecure rulers treated their ministers and generals like that, and every single one does worse than its neighbours with actual rules and laws."

His serfs continue to oil the first as he considers my words.

Of course, sooner or later, it'd hit a plateau of expansion. But by then, they might have settled into a more orderly arrangement.

"And how would you have me judge between them? I don't want to spend all of my time actually watching those morons."

"I suggest automating a process for detecting shifts in Hell's magic field. Or you could literally count soul income. Ultimately, it doesn't matter, as long as you're upfront about it. And if you don't want to-" Do your job. "-take on extra work, it needs to be something that either can be automated, or where you can leave it to someone who can be trusted not to-."

Heck, you could call the ranking system, I don't know... The Wages of Sin, perhaps?

"Heh." He smiles at me. "'Trusted'."

"Not to do a bad job or lie. Not 'trusted' in the sense of generally being honest, 'trusted' in the sense of enjoying having powerful demons unable to hurt them and being afraid of his reports. Or of being so obsessed with precision that it wouldn't occur to them to lie. Or some sort of machine."

Someone so focused or specialised that they have no sense of ambition, no drive to do anything but tally this ranking system.

"I couldn't trust the Renderers to make one."

"The Renderers did try to kill a man who was making demonic machinery. He could probably build something, and he'd be too terrified of you to not do exactly what you asked."

Indeed. Simpson probably could do it, actually. Either manage the system, or build something to do so...

The First frowns. "And of course this is the first I'm hearing about it. Is there anything about this man I might find amusing?"

"John Constantine got him killed. Twice."

Which speaks to his character. Stupid enough to get tricked, not once, but twice?

"Hah!" He smiles as they finish up oiling his legs. "He thought they were friends, didn't he?"

"That he died is how you tell. Of course… If we're going to Masak Mavdil, it occurs to me that angels are generally known for honesty and precision."

Remiel and Duma still hanging out down there, I'll bet. Likely by their toes.

"No."

"Compelling them to aid in improving Hell would be an ironic punishment, oh First."

And with a little mental adjustment, they'd probably do it happily, even.

The gynoids back away as the loincloth-clad First checks their work. With a nod, he approves.

"Even if they were the best option, it wouldn't be worth dealing with them. I'd rather destroy the whole system."

Well, that would also be an option. Raze Hell and start over with a plan, rather than a cancer.

I nod. "As you will. Will you be accompanying me?"

"Yes. I've never seen how gods react to it. I don't often get to see genuinely new things."

Oh, this should be entertaining, then.

"And how-?"

He look upwards and the mountain bends, the land below us wheeling and twisting until-. A desolate plain and a grim fortress appears… Next to us.

Getting flashbacks to Doctor Strange...

I'm just about able to prevent myself vomiting from travel sickness.

"There." He casually steps off the mountain and onto the plain. "Let me show you Hell's birthplace."

I shudder to imagine what this looks like from the rest of Hell...

So, a little visit to the deepest pit of the whole shebang. Probably a lot less ice, mind. If anything, I'm picturing something more like an impact crater: Giant spires of displaced stone and crystal spreading out from the actual point he hit. No doubt the 'grim fortress' is his original palace, tucked away as a prison for their angelic 'guests'. Should be pleasant.

moralrelativity · Jan 15, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
He look upwards

look -> looks

Mr Zoat · Jan 15, 2024

moralrelativity said:
look -> looks

Thank you, corrected.

BartlettMagic · Jan 15, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
What? No, they're Greek Orthodox Christians. Most of them have a strong negative association to Hellenism.

well maybe they were, but how many had that faith Anti-Life'd out of them? and of those still remaining, how many are culturally, subconsciously predisposed to jump on the Hellenism train once they see how quickly things are improving? they're literally surrounded by architecture and literature and history supporting the idea of Hellenism. this is assuming Themiscyra shows up and becomes an influencing part of the 'new' Greek culture, because if the Amazon myth is real, the rest of it must be too. honestly i would expect a Hellenistic Revival in Greece following the Anti-Life crisis, as people grasp at foundations of faith that haven't completely failed them. there's a huge potential for a new priesthood to rise, and OL hasn't exactly been mute in his endorsements of the Hellenistic system. from there, it only takes one or two zealots to start a religious wildfire.

also, i continue to enjoy Gravy auditing Hell, and am looking forward to the upcoming chapters.

Blue1ao · Jan 15, 2024

Just hit the beginning of vega baby arc... Can I skip ahead reading just the renegade parts they seem to be diverting enough to be their own story

Mr Zoat · Jan 15, 2024

Blue1ao said:
Just hit the beginning of vega baby arc... Can I skip ahead reading just the renegade parts they seem to be diverting enough to be their own story

No, and if you do I will come to your house and drown your parrot.

Blue1ao · Jan 15, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
No, and if you do I will come to your house and drown your parrot.

Lucky guess on my emotional attachment.. I will continue the story as it was intended. Also it's been great btw good stuff

Ardy · Jan 16, 2024

So, just putting this out there, but with the world in chaos, the SI could totally publish his superior 40k rule book and black library will be too busy being dead to stop him

Vaermina · Jan 16, 2024

Ardy said:
So, just putting this out there, but with the world in chaos, the SI could totally publish his superior 40k rule book and black library will be too busy being dead to stop him

I mean... Sure... But if copyright/trademark has collapsed that much everybody else will be free to do the same...

Ardy · Jan 16, 2024

Vaermina said:
I mean... Sure... But if copyright/trademark has collapsed that much everybody else will be free to do the same...

The joke

———

Vaernina

Mr Zoat · Jan 16, 2024

16th October 2010
10:02 GMT -5

Artemis frowns at her phone, currently showing a compendium of 2nd Edition rules and errata. I've been making an effort to get copies of old White Dwarf and Citadel Journal as well as the actual 2nd Edition rulebook, but given that they predate modern computer-controlled printing it's surprisingly difficult to find a lot of them. I suppose I could just offer to pay Games Workshop to run them off for me, but it's…

"I don't think that's legal."

I'm sort of enjoying hunting them down.

"What isn't?"

"This says that Vortex Grenades are 'Rare-Two'." She looks up, turning the phone around so that I can see the entry. "You can only take two in your army. So, the warp jump thing doesn't work."

"I know." I nod. "The wargear rarity restriction was added…" When was it? "Hm, I don't actually remember. White Dwarf two hundred and something. The same one where they clarified what the restriction on multiple force fields meant." I shrug. "Less than half of the life of the edition. I built the army assuming that it didn't apply, because otherwise you only get-" I nod. "-two techmarines."

"And warp jumps don't scatter if you roll 'hit' anyway, so the teleport homer doesn't do anything."

I nod. "I went through to find mistakes in the Battle Bible, and there's a lot. Just in the wargear section they miss the fact that bionic arms increase strength for throwing grenades and not just hand to hand combat, that the Talon of Horus has a stormbolter attached to it and it gets the to-hit penalty rule for jump packs backwards."

She turns the phone back towards her, scrolling though the pages until she gets to the jump pack entry.

"Ah, 'models using Jump Packs do not receive the minus one to hit penalty for firing at a fast-moving target'."

I pick up a copy of the Wargear book and turn to page 71 before passing it to her. "It should be 'Troops using jump packs leap in nice slow, predictable curves so models firing at them do not count the minus one to hit penalty for firing at a target moving ten inches or faster.'. Which makes more sense: why would making a jump movement make you better at shooting fast moving targets? And it's not clear what happens when they move twenty inches or more, which should give a minus two penalty, and all of the 'common' wargear items should just be regular equipment, and they made some pieces of wargear limited to a particular character when originally anyone of the right species could use them."

"Huh. So why haven't you just fixed it?"

"Because I'd be the only person who knew my version of the rules. If I was actually having a game with someone we'd have to discuss which version we were using, and 'the original rulebook' or 'the battle bible' is a lot quicker than me having to explain my personal fixes. The whole point for me was just to have this army."

"But you could."

I hold out my right hand and lift up my copy of Codex: Eldar. "The eldar have plenty of tanks in the larger scale game, and a third party company called Armorcast did larger versions for Warhammer Forty Thousand, but I never saw the rules for them. Games Workshop didn't add eldar tanks into the game until the end of Second Edition, and they didn't make a model for their troop transport until Third Edition. The model in the company army had a turret made from a plastic spoon."

Her shoulders slump a little. "I don't mind learning the game, but I'm not that into it. If it's got that many problems how come you like it so much?"

I smile, looking directly at her. "Love is not a rational thing. It is quite possible to love a thing despite its faults while.. still being aware of those faults. Still finding those faults.. irritating, sometimes, but not prioritising that irritation over the love."

Ah…

"In the interests of clarity, you want me to assemble the rules as I prefer them in one place and give that to you?"

"Ah." She seems distracted for a moment. Not sure why. "Or I… Guess you could just learn chess."

"European Chess or Chinese Chess-? No, it doesn't matter."

Ring?

Hm? What is it, sport?

With all this information, you can handle the formatting, right?

Sure? Want me to pick up contemporaneous artwork to fill in the gaps too?

Yes. I'm not actually all that keen on John Blanche, a lot of his work just looks messy to me.

You do know I can hear your thoughts, right sport?

Okay. Hit it.

Orange lines flick out, enveloping Codex: Eldar and all of the material relating to eldar. The Citadel Journal with the expanded Harlequins list and psychic powers, the vehicle cards and vehicle upgrades…

And a new and slightly thicker copy of Codex: Eldar lands on the table.

And done.

I pick it up and flick through. Weapons? Yes, the ring added the pulse laser, and the support section of the army list now includes grav-tanks. And Mimes and Master Mimes are listed with the Harlequins. Oh, and the art section now has a copy of that rather nice diorama of the knight and the chaplain, a nice cover for the fact that eldar knights literally never got a model. Good work, ring.

You're welcome. It's nice to be appreciated.

"Hey."

I hold it out to her. "It's turned out well. I'll do the main rulebook next-."

"No, about-. Faults."

"Yes? As far as I remember Codex: Eldar was fairly well written-."

"No, I mean-. I think.. this is something I should just say to you. It's about Indigo."

"What about it?" She's looking directly at me. "Were you not interested in the eldar?"

"No. That. You call her 'it'."

I nod. "Yes."

"How come? I mean, it's.. pretty rude."

"Because that's what it is. You wouldn't call a statue of a woman 'she', would you?"

She leans back slightly. "Whaw, huh. So, what, you don't think Red Tornado is a person either?"

I blink. "No, Red Tornado is a person. And his-." Ah. "I think I see the problem."

"I'm…" She shakes her head. "Not sure you do."

Me neither.

"Indigo is a gynoid, a machine built in the likeness of a woman. It isn't a woman. It doesn't have all of the biological impulses that come with being human, adult, or female. Having three fifths of its brain coming from a gynoid programmed to mimic them means that it can fake it reasonably well, like a chatbot. It's… Sentient, not sapient. It has no real internal life. Red Tornado does."

Artemis frowns. "Are you..? Sure? She seemed like a person to me."

"The ring lets me scan to detect certain emotions. Red Tornado has them. They're pretty weak, but they're there, because he was programmed to observe, mimic and internalise, just like you and I were. Indigo wasn't. It was programmed to obey a list. I'm not trying to insult it. It's making itself useful. But it's not a person."

She thinks about that for a moment, eventually giving me a small nod. "Could she..? Become..? A person?"

"I hope not. I wasn't joking about not understanding her Coluan components. If it turns out that they're that flexible, then… I've got no idea what she might be capable of, or why she might decide to do it. As I said, you can't actually predict her actions based on the fact she looks like a human woman when she isn't one."

Artemis looks concerned. Why is-? Ah!

"It's okay if you're not interested in eldar. I was going to update all of the codices anyway. Where would you like to start?"

Whenever Possible · Jan 16, 2024

Are emotions (or rather, connection to a specific emotional energy field) the mark of personhood?

Idkusername · Jan 16, 2024

Whenever Possible said:
Are emotions (or rather, connection to a specific emotional energy field) the mark of personhood?

They're a requirement, but they're not the only requirement. From OL's experience with the plane of avarice, even animals have some connection to the Orange Light even if they're not sophonts.

Chojin Patriarch · Jan 16, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
16th October 2010
10:02 GMT -5

Artemis frowns her phone, currently showing a compendium of 2nd Edition rules and errata. I've been making an effort to get copies of old White Dwarf and Citadel Journal as well as the actual 2nd Edition rulebook, but given that they predate modern computer-controlled printing it's surprisingly difficult to find a lot of them. I suppose I could just offer to pay Games Workshop to run them off for me, but it's…

"I don't think that's legal."

It doesn't help that surviving copies are often well-used, so that their bindings are struggling somewhat to hold together. The joy of modern gaming printing, where books aren't expected to be kept around for twenty-plus years. Indeed, some struggle for the less-than-five years of an average edition.

I'm sort of enjoying hunting them down.

"What isn't?"

And there's always the option of scouring the internet for scans and photos and building your own copy. Another thing I'd be tempted to do with a power ring.

"This says that Vortex Grenades are 'Rare-Two'." She looks up, turning the phone around so that I can see the entry. "You can only take two in your army. So, the warp jump thing doesn't work."

"I know." I nod. "The wargear rarity restriction was added…" When was it? "Hm, I don't actually remember. White Dwarf two hundred and something. The same one where they clarified what the restriction on multiple force fields meant." I shrug. "Less than half of the life of the edition. I built the army assuming that it didn't apply, because otherwise you only get-" I nod. "-two techmarines."

Never mind things like the Virus Grenade, and it's bigger brother, The Virus Outbreak strategy card which even the designers admitted might have been a bit much, and 'jokingly' encouraged people to tear their copy of the latter card up!
(Edit: Corrected by Mr Zoat on the matter...)

"And warp jumps don't scatter if you roll 'hit' anyway, so the teleport homer doesn't do anything."

I nod. "I went through to find mistakes in the Battle Bible, and there's a lot. Just in the wargear section they miss the fact that bionic arms increase strength for throwing grenades and not just hand to hand combat, that the Talon of Horus has a stormbolter attached to it and it gets the to-hit penalty rule for jump packs backwards."

The joy of pre-computer tabletop games development. When if someone made a change, it could go unnoticed until the book was printed.

She turns the phone back towards her, scrolling though the pages until she gets to the jump pack entry.

"Ah, 'models using Jump Packs do not receive the minus one to hit penalty for firing at a fast-moving target'."

I think someone got the logic of the sentence turned around in their head.

I pick up a copy of the Wargear book and turn to page 71 before passing it to her. "It should be 'Troops using jump packs leap in nice slow, predictable curves so models firing at them do not count the minus one to hit penalty for firing at a target moving ten inches or faster.'. Which makes more sense: why would making a jump movement make you better at shooting fast moving targets? And it's not clear what happens when they move twenty inches or more, which should give a minus two penalty, and all of the 'common' wargear items should just be regular equipment, and they made some pieces of wargear limited to a particular character when originally anyone of the right species could use them."

To be fair, a lot of rules the 'games design team' create aren't always play-tested well. Never mind that it's rare for them to play the way hardcore competitive players do with their optimisation processes... That's how you end up with some of the latest edition's oopsies. Like the Eldar's Phantasm stratagem, which the designers had to pulverise with the Nerfhammer

Before, it could allow any Eldar unit to move 7" in the opponent's movement phase. One of the most abused targets of this was often a Fire-Prism grav tank who had advanced to take a potshot at an enemy, only to retreat into cover before it could be fired upon in reply or assaulted. Never mind things like Wraithknights doing a Phantasm Can-Can.

And that's a gross over-simplification of the issue.
Competitive players would use these tactics, the 'Devastating Wounds' weapon ability and tricks like 'free' stratagems from character abilities, to lead them to an obnoxiously high win rate in tournaments. The September 2023 Balance Datasheet nerf involved restricting it to Infantry models only, making it still useful, but less so than before.
(Devastating Wounds was also changed to be less powerful too. Before and after, It triggers on a 6 to wound. But it went from dealing Mortal Wounds that could hop models - avoiding the usual limitation of high-damage weaponry which could only splatter one model at a time - to simply dealing unsavable wounds.)

"Huh. So why haven't you just fixed it?"

"Because I'd be the only person who knew my version of the rules. If I was actually having a game with someone we'd have to discuss which version we were using, and 'the original rulebook' or 'the battle bible' is a lot quicker than me having to explain my personal fixes. The whole point for me was just to have this army."

The joy of using 'House Rules'. Especially if you're planning to teach someone how to play the game, and have to decide if you want to use the rules as written, or your own 'adjustments'.

"But you could."

I hold out my right hand and lift up my copy of Codex: Eldar. "The eldar have plenty of tanks in the larger scale game, and a third party company called Armorcast did larger versions for Warhammer Forty Thousand, but I never saw the rules for them. Games Workshop didn't add eldar tanks into the game until the end of Second Edition, and they didn't make a model for their troop transport until Third Edition. The model in the company army had a turret made from a plastic spoon."

The 90's were a hell of a time. Limited or no options for many armies' models, and an easy-going attitude from Games Workshop about creating your own models to fit things they haven't released. How far things have come...

Now if it isn't in the current boxes they sell, you can't do it.

Her shoulders slump a little. "I don't mind learning the game, but I'm not that into it. If it's got that many problems how come you like it so much?"

I smile, looking directly at her. "Love is not a rational thing. It is quite possible to love a thing despite its faults while.. still being aware of those faults. Still finding those faults.. irritating, sometimes, but not prioritising that irritation over the love."

...And now she isn't sure if he's talking about the game, or himself.

Ah…

"In the interests of clarity, you want me to assemble the rules as I prefer them in one place and give that to you?"

Heh. If you released them onto the internet with clear labelling about them being 'one player's refinement', you'd probably revolutionise the 'Oldhammer' community. Not like he'd care about copyright infringement.

"Ah." She seems distracted for a moment. Not sure why. "Or I… Guess you could just learn chess."

"European Chess or Chinese Chess-? No, it doesn't matter."

Huh, that's actually a thing. Looks even more complex.

Ring?

Hm? What is it, sport?

Like you aren't paying close attention to the conversation.

After all, you are emulating Tang before his little evil dosage, grognard side and all.

With all this information, you can handle the formatting, right?

Sure? Want me to pick up contemporaneous artwork to fill in the gaps too?

That depends on how goofy it is.

Yes. I'm not actually all that keen on John Blanche, a lot of his work just looks messy to me.

You do know I can hear your thoughts, right sport?

He wasn't trying to hide it, you know. Blanche's artwork, messy and sketchy as it is, may have influenced the game's mood and style, but it does look... Rough, sometimes.

Okay. Hit it.

Orange lines flick out, enveloping Codex: Eldar and all of the material relating to elder. The Citadel Journal with the expanded Harlequins list and psychic powers, the vehicle cards and vehicle upgrades…

Living the dream of many tabletop gamers there...

And a new and slightly thicker copy of Codex: Eldar lands on the table.

And done.

Hopefully with far superior binding that can withstand the kind of treatment a teenage girl might give it. And no stack of cards to go with it?

I pick it up and flick through. Weapons? Yes, the ring added the pulse laser, and the support section of the army list now includes grav-tanks. And Mimes and Master Mimes are listed with the Harlequins. Oh, and the art section now has a copy of that rather nice diorama of the knight and the chaplain, a nice cover for the fact that eldar knights literally never got a model. Good work, ring.

You're welcome. It's nice to be appreciated.

And of course, it's easy to create models of anything you or she might want to play from scratch. Man... We could have had Eldar Exodites that channelled Dino-Riders...

"Hey."

I hold it out to her. "It's turned out well. I'll do the main rulebook next-."

And hopefully refine the layout into a more sensible configuration. Some books of the era, like the Cyberpunk 2020 rules... Yow, all over the place.

"No, about-. Faults."

"Yes? As far as I remember Codex: Eldar was fairly well written-."

For the time. I'll bet it was mostly done by one person who enjoyed the army, but understood game balance...

"No, I mean-. I think.. this is something I should just say to you. It's about Indigo."

"What about it?" She's looking directly at me. "Were you not interested in the eldar?"

Tang, set the toy soldiers aside a moment... This is serious.

"No. That. You call her 'it'."

I nod. "Yes."

Ah, one of those reminders that Tang has a distinct view of the world.

"How come? I mean, it's.. pretty rude."

"Because that's what it is. You wouldn't call a statue of a woman 'she', would you?"

Ah, yes. 'What measure is a man?' Or in this case, a synthetic teenage girl.

She leans back slightly. "Whaw, huh. So, what, you don't think Red Tornado is a person either?"

I blink. "No, Red Tornado is a person. And his-." Ah. "I think I see the problem."

Ah, so it isn't just a matter of personality and mental complexity?

"I'm…" She shakes her head. "Not sure you do."

Me neither.

Oh, this will be good.

"Indigo is a gynoid, a machine built in the likeness of a woman. It isn't a woman. It doesn't have all of the biological impulses that come with being human, adult, or female. Having three fifths of its brain coming from a gynoid programmed to mimic them means that it can fake it reasonably well, like a chatbot. It's… Sapient, not sentient. It has no real internal life. Red Tornado does."

Artemis frowns. "Are you..? Sure? She seemed like a person to me."

...It's a very good chatbot? Sister's brain is probably doing a lot of the heavy lifting behaviour-wise.

"The ring lets me scan to detect certain emotions. Red Tornado has them. They're pretty weak, but they're there, because he was programmed to observe, mimic and internalise, just like you and I were. Indigo wasn't. It was programmed to obey a list. I'm not trying to insult it. It's making itself useful. But it's not a person."

She thinks about that for a moment, eventually giving me a small nod. "Could she..? Become..? A person?"

I suppose part of it comes from the elemental energies Reddy was built with by Morrow.

"I hope not. I wasn't joking about not understanding her Coluan components. If it turns out that they're that flexible, then… I've got no idea what she might be capable of, or why she might decide to do it. As I said, you can't actually predict her actions based on the fact she looks like a human woman when she isn't one."

At least Tang is keeping an eye on her, I guess? I hope he is, anyway...

Artemis looks concerned. Why is-? Ah!

"It's okay if you're not interested in eldar. I was going to update all of the codices anyway. Where would you like to start?"

Heh. If you felt sassy, you could even back-port modern armies to 2nd edition.

Ah, vintage Warhammer. In all it's sometimes confusing glory. Good to see Artemis was serious about learning it, though. Wonder if she'd lean into the creative side of the hobby too, painting an entire army? Still, concerning to see that Tang has such a strict view of the complexity of artificial minds. I suppose being able to see their emotions or lack thereof makes it much clearer how 'alive' they are.

"The eldar have plenty of tanks in...

First link has an extraneous 'v' in the 'https' part.

...and all of the material relating to elder.

... and all of the material relating to eldar.

Coltsguy · Jan 16, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
It's… Sapient, not sentient.

I was under the impression that sapience required sentience. Was I wrong?

crazygrox · Jan 16, 2024

Whenever Possible said:
Are emotions (or rather, connection to a specific emotional energy field) the mark of personhood?

I... think emotional capacity, at least as far as having established preferences and counter-preferences is necessary to have enough of a self to be able to pursue self-interest, which is a prerequisite for personhood.

The way it's being described I'm not sure indigo includes even the most simple levels of adaptive neural learning, and instead it seems to run entirely off of a mix of designed list of contingencies, and possibly contingencies that design new contingencies without any particular scaling preference reaction to any variable, and instead use a flowchart of results rather than a variable preference measure when determining whether a new contingency is intelligently designed.

Signaller · Jan 16, 2024

How many full ring-charges would it cost for Tangseid to do Paraphidian's eyeballs-all-over the-world trick, to find all extant copies of the manual and assemble an amalgamated copy?

ptb_ptb · Jan 16, 2024

Coltsguy said:
I was under the impression that sapience required sentience. Was I wrong?

The problem with sapience/sentience is that English is a messy language and people (often vigorously) disagree about what words mean. Both words have a history of being used interchangeably to mean 'of human level intelligence' starting in early sci-fi books (1940s on) and most dictionaries will point that out. However, many people argue that the 'true' meaning is linked to the etymological root of the words where sentience implies feeling and sapience implies thinking.

Modes of thought/computation without emotions (such as certain theoretical AI) have been described as sapient but not sentient however that depends on observing the narrow definition of those words that far from everyone agrees with, or even know as being a thing.

That said, the MC's insistence on not refering to Indigo as 'she' leans into the whole thing I'm not going to mention.

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