After Amelia

Not me. I wanna see superheroes

 

Hopefully not many. I would hate to lose that much respect for my readers.

 

I voted for Path Magic to not get Price.

It didn't work out.

 

I voted for Path Magic in order to get Path Magic.

It also didn't work out.

 

Just out of curiosity, what else did you vote for?

 

Just Path Magic. It sounded the most interesting to me, and it didn't hurt that it sounded ambitious.

 

Yeah. I'll get to it eventually. Honestly, part of the appeal in Price is that it's one of the few with a male protagonist... Amelia was dominated by its female cast members. For good reason, granted, but still... Zach never had his time to shine.

Midara has a fairly even spread on the protag genders... but being a fantasy setting, it's a whole other kettle of fish, but even combining *every* Midara vote (which probably has some overlap) it doesn't come close to the others.

And I wrote off Second Nature because it's too much a visual story to be easily told in text alone. Not impossible, I'm sure, but beyond what I'm willing to call my skill level.

That, too. Kinda scared me off, something like this. Maybe when I have more confidence in myself as a writer, or maybe when the muse gives me a swift kick in the nuts... but for right now I don't have the kind of plot I feel I need to make a story like this one work.

Also... it's something I don't think I've ever seen done before, telling a story of a protagonist who's honestly not important in the whole scheme of things. She'd never be out from under her master's shadow in the course of the story... especially since that's basically the only thing that protects her from the other terrifying magical beings that he invites over for fights to the death and/or orgies on occasion.


On the plus side... knowing there's at least two people who went with Path yet didn't want it makes me feel better about not going with it.

 

I voted for Price because i wanted Price and i voted for Path because i thought it would make a nice silver metal if Price didnt win. The other ideas appealed to me less.

So overall im quite happy with how it turned out. But its also worth noting that regardless of who voted for what.... i think the results will be superior if Tana writes something Tana likes and has a plot for. If hes worried that Path may be too ambitious, then it would be better to shelf it and ponder for another day. Perhaps the next story.

 

I voted for Path - the trans-humanism theme really rang with me, as well as the promises of political intrigue and Second Nature - just to see what you'd do with it.

Midara, I didn't vote for - while I'd like to see where you'd take it, I think you'd probably bite off more than you could chew with that one. And it would be hard to get into - with Worm we had a likable character and someone we could relate to(Taylor), slowly learning more and more about the setting, building from the familiar and leading us into the fantastical. With Amelia, you built off of our knowledge of Worm which was already familiar to us so we could go with the story more easily, building on that into a whole new great story.
With Midara, you'd have to build from scratch - and that is far harder than what you'd done with Amelia. You'd have to come from a whole new angle, guiding us into your world of Midara, with the help of the main character(s) living their lives, building on what is familiar to us to the things important to the story - all those thousand years of history for this setting might be superfluous if they're not actually important to the story in some way, or if the MC shares this history for exposition, and in the course of the story it hardly comes into account. Here, I'd suggest just going with broad strokes when introducing us into the setting, hitting us with information just about as it becomes important - Worm is a good example here: Taylor knows little about the cape scene, and so do we. In the start of the story, we get a small, basic amount of exposition, and then we get information about the setting only as it becomes important to the story, or to flesh it out. Superfluous information is something left alone until it is needed (or in the author notes ). Once the setting is fleshed out, if the MC is changed, like in a new book, we can assume that the general information is the same, so we can focus on the differences, what the MC knows vs. what we've been shown - as an example: we have a story about a high caste boy, living a life of intrigue, so what we're shown, is colored with his point of view - the poor are unimportant, they amount to little or somesuch, so that's not what he concentrates on, but on the politics of the situation, the conversation, the thinking process... Then, the next story, we have the same setting, but we've made a timeskip or to a different country, so the new character has his own opinions - he might be a country boy, or a magic user - here the story might concentrates on the principles of magic, and what he considers important - what he misses, we might notice/(get told/hinted at) in the story, but he doesn't, so he works on what he knows. See; the setting is the same, the characters might even meet in their separate stories, but how the event (in the story) is told, that also depends in a big part on the main character.
Basically, you've said it yourself - your world is too big, and that's what makes me think it's not likely to succeed. Many books try to make something as big as what you did and many fail - so maybe look at the successes: Discworld, Game of Thrones, Xanth, Worm, Lord of The Rings, maybe even Coiling Dragon - in most of these, the first book is an introduction into the world, a test, both for the reader and the writer, to see whether it's worth continuing. In the following books, the world is fleshed out, sometimes adding to what we know, sometimes changing it. A different character, a different point of view, it's monumentally difficult, and I don't think you, as a writer, are ready for it. Yet.

...I've rambled a bit too much. Still, if you do read through my wall of text, I hope it helps in some small way.

 

TanaNari, could you tell us a bit more about the Price Universe? How people get powers, what city/area are the stories being set in, how their culture differs from ours, that sort of thing?

 

Every last thing you said about Midara applies to Price as well. Or, for that matter, Path and Second Nature. Not as much, granted, since it's a more-or-less-Modern-Earth setting. But I have to establish it the same as any Alt Reality Setting.

An unknown in the setting. Like Worm, there is *something* of a Trigger Event, called an Imbuement... but there's no specific emotional state that causes one. For some, it's traumatic, and for others it's achieving some kind of trance state- whether through meditation or drugs, and for others it's just daydreaming about how fun it'd be to fly, and then suddenly they can fly.

There's a few things they all have in common.



1- Powers fit the personality and needs of the individual who gains them when they gain them. Whether it's the person that selects the power, or the power that selects the person, is a matter of debate. But they fit. Flashy powers tend to go to flashy and idealistic (or attention seeker) types. Stealthier or more physically brutal powers tend to go to the quiet and brooding types. If you're an individual who believes wealth is critically important, you usually get a power that's fairly easy to monetize. Starving to death in Ethiopia? A young mother concerned for her newborn may get the power to summon rain to sustain crops... an orphan with no one to care for them may get the power to never need food or water again... a jealous asshole may gain a power to steal the life essence of others like vampire. Point is, they're getting a power that solves the whole starving to death thing.


2- The individual in question loses something in the exchange- known in the community as The Price. What they pay differs from individual to individual, but even the first Imbuement comes with a loss of something personally important to the Imbued. Though the first loss is as often as not retroactive, coming before the powers themselves.

And further power increases, usually called Surges when they occur, or Second/Third/Etc Imbuements afterward... include more obvious and substantial losses. These tend to occur during stress, but one of the Imbued can activate a Surge whenever they want to. Usually the Second teaches them that they really don't want to, and most would prefer to die before finding out what a Fourth looks like. Or after... suicide and accidents related to substance abuse are the most common causes of death for Fourth Stage Imbued.

The Price also seems fairly prescient... often time, the loss is caused specifically because of the power gained. For example... a forcefield user finds herself buried alive. She needs a new power. Depending on what she feels she needs, she might gain teleportation to escape or she might get telepathy to call her allies for help. The power then will naturally include some way for her to discover her husband's cheating on her. Oh, yeah, and it also turns out she's pregnant.

Or a brawler needs access to sensory powers to find his lost daughter. He activates his Surge and all of a sudden his body is fused with his pet Germen Shepherd. Which his daughter loves, by the way. He is now stronger and has sensory powers. But he killed his dog and no longer has a chance at a normal life because he's now half dog. And he should count himself lucky- if this was a Fourth Imbuement, he'd probably accidentally kill his daughter with whatever he gets.

Did I mention people learn real quick that they don't this? They don't want their enemies doing it, either. Heroes and villains alike tend to pull their punches, because an enemy with nothing left to lose is an enemy that's suddenly got new powers. And making someone Surge with "I want revenge"... that doesn't go well for anyone.


3- Powers favor the "losing side". Members of minority groups, countercultures, and the disenfranchised are significantly more likely to gain powers in the first place. The oppressed rebels in a war... at least up until they start winning, in which case the overlords will start to see an upsurge in the ranks of Imbued joining their side. Criminals start winning control of the city. Then a new pool of "idealistic" heroes to counter them. Then a wave of manipulative "subtle" villains that start to corrupt the otherwise happy system and forcing the Idealistic Heroes to ask hard questions about morality. Then we see an increase of antiheroes. Antiheroes drive out those criminals while generally behaving like assholes. Replaced by a collection of blatant villains.

It's localized. An antihero trend in New York may happen at the same time as a Idealist trend in Chicago and a Blatant Villain trend in California. And there are always individuals that don't fit the trend. Antiheroes spawning when they're not needed, so on and so fourth. But there is a clear, fairly predictable pattern. In much the same way there are predictable patterns in music and fashion.

Various. Zach's story takes place in the Arlington/Wash. DC region. Alongside a few others including Anima. Ariana (aka- Eric) will live in Indianapolis, that story stays in that area. Chicago's likely to feature in that story as well. So on and so forth.

Aside the stuff mentioned above? About the same as ours. Same countries, same borders, roughly the same important dates on the calender. 9/11, and all that came of it, still happened. But super powers may have been a factor in causing it.

 

That's... nasty, interesting but nasty. Even if I wasn't a fan of Amelia, I'd probably want to read Price simply because of this. Would I be right in guessing that Kitten is a third or fourth stage Imbued and maybe has a different opinion on making her enemies Surge?

 

Interesting! How does pairs fit into that? Since there is no shard-based mindfuckery going on, do they just feel a connection or something else? How common are paired people vs unpaire? Are there any differences between people with a partner and without?

Does pairbonding always result in the pair working it out together? Or are there hero/villian pairs who couldnt work out their differences and end up fighting?

Are the other halves of a pair subject to the Price of their partner? Ie, if you had a pair who happened to be lovers, would one of them Surging put the other at risk, or do they form a exception? Do asynchronous power levels have any affect on a pairbond? (like if you had a Surge-1 and a Surge-3)

 

More or less. It tends to greatly depend on the Imbued in question. There's a matter of both the personal connection and a matter of the power increase... the two aren't always in proportion.

Some click into a direct emotional link. A sudden "on" switch and they can pretty much hear each others' thoughts and feelings. Instant deep intimacy. Others develop into it slowly, often without even realizing it's happening until, discovering their powers work absurdly well together and that draws them closer. The more psychologically or emotionally independent a person is, or the more they have riding on relationships outside the Pairbond, the slower the process tends to be.

Take a pair of troubled, lonely teenagers who've dealt with abandonment, rejection, and self hate... the Pairbond gives them someone they can trust to love and accept them unconditionally. Gives them something worth fighting for. Is it healthy? Probably not. But they're going to dive into it without hesitation, whatever the obstacles.

Compare that to a thirty something year old career hero with a husband and a teenage daughter who finds out she has an interaction with someone who goes to highschool with her daughter. That's going to be a much slower process... one that she might not even realize is happening for a year or two, but eventually she'll find her family holds her back from her Pairbond. She won't choose her family, and she'll find *some* way to justify this connection to herself. "It's not about (the partner)... but my job as a hero is so important, and I don't have time for a personal life, and my husband and daughter are better off without me than waiting for time I can't give them."

Power Interactions are much more common than proper Pairbonds- in fact, a notable minority only have powers thanks to Interactions, being functionally powerless when left to their own devices (although usually with some kind of power detection power). So an interaction doesn't even usually lead to a pairbond.

Maybe not in so many words, and depending on the personalities maybe not ever in a way that other people would consider "working it out together". But yes, they ALWAYS find their way to one another. Sometimes in a weird Batman/Catwoman sort of way where they're theoretically on the opposite sides of the divide... but they'll always run into each other, or team up against some Serious Outside Threat (TM) or what have you.

Or enough Heel-Face-Turns on both sides that it starts to look like a Tango. Ooh! Maybe I can create a Trope! Heel Face Tango. That has a really fun ring to it.

To the point where the old hats have coined terms like "Enemies with Benefits" and just sorta roll with it. Sometimes it includes a reenactment of what people say about Peach and Bowser.

(Newbie) "Captain Psycho just kidnapped Starlet! He's demanding a billion dollars ransom!"
"Oh, good. She was being a real bitch lately."
"At least they were respectful enough to do it during the slow season. Last time was a pain in the ass."
"We'll give it a couple days, then go rescue her. She can use the vacation."
(Newbie) "Bwuh?"

Usually, no. That tends to be an exception. But not always, that depends on the members in question. But given that a Pairbond has a near constant power interaction, and those tend to be significantly more powerful than any Imbued alone could ever hope to be? Forcing a Pairbond to Surge is very, very rare. This setting's power level caps out around Spider Man's b-list villains. Plenty of Imbued exist who can beat the likes of Electro or Doc Ock, but few that can do it easily without having a power that just happens to specifically be really good against that kind of enemy.

Not particularly. It's rare for a First or Second Imbued to have a pairbond at all, however. Basically, each Jump is "add a new power, adjust or replace powers to suit". A pair of First Imbued only has one chance at a power interaction. A pair of Second Imbued have a total of four possible fitting combos.

 

"Hey babe, are you well-imbued?"

"I have enough power to fit your slot."

 

Actual in-setting come-ons.

 

In cases of pairbonds like this, where one person is in a position of power or authority over the other, how common is it for the dynamic to abusive/controlling (or even just a little bit off)? Does the bond help prevent situations where one of them controls the other, either "for their own good" or simply because they want the power the other offers?

Alternatively, in cases where a pairbond with a unhealthy power dynamic (intentional or not) develops in such a way that would prevent one of them from maturing properly (i.e. the high school kid doesn't develop a life outside the pairbond and doesn't develop properly as a result) does the pairbond help reduce/eliminate the effects of that overtime or is the only solution to break the pairbond?

 

Depending on your definition of "abusive"... very, very hard... or almost guaranteed. The nature of Pairbonding tends to result in the participants finding reasons to use their powers together (or directly against one another, that works too) as much as possible.

Even the superficially equal relationships will be this at the very least.

No. Whatever the source of powers may be, it's not concerned about the wellbeing of the Imbued. The Pairbonding, much like the Imbuements themselves, don't give a fuck about "healthy" or "normal" behavior. And I think a lot of people fail to realize that when I wrote Amelia, I was *not* portraying Pairbonds as a healthy or good thing.

"Well, you're still just as fucked, but at least you're no longer alone" is the best you can hope for from these things.

If one of them wants to control, and one of them wants to be controlled... then that'll be the default of the relationship. If not, then the Pairbond will keep working its magic until things reach a more agreeable point for both participants.

Let's paint all this as a scenario, shall we? Pairbonding mechanics were explored in Amelia... but let's look at a different potential bond... everyone grab your vomit bags... Dinah and Coil. Yeah, I'll wait a minute while you rinse out your mouths.

Their canon abilities are fairly well established... what would a Pairbond do for them? Mechanically... pretty much the most obvious answer is it would allow Dinah to piggyback on Coil's power and be aware of herself in both timelines. The ability to double dip into her power for answers, and the advantages of two sets of perceptions working side by side. Now, Coil doesn't gain any obvious benefits from this arrangement, which isn't uncommon for a pairbond... but it puts the impetus on Dinah to strengthen the psychological aspects of the link.

Over the course of a few weeks, Coil discovers Dinah is being remarkably cooperative, even eager to help. He's being influenced as well, if subconsciously. Weening her off the drugs is an obvious step- why use them now that they prove not only redundant, but harmful? Then they start just talking, usually in the alt timelines that are going to collapse... what Coil's plans are (he likes to brag, we see this in canon) and Dinah's willing to offer insights by using her power in ways he hadn't thought of to give him better odds. She'd undoubtedly figure out her "hot or cold game" variant on her power much more quickly than Canon.

He quickly realizes her ability to operate in both timelines, and that the more she knows about his plans the more useful she becomes. The relationship strengthens... and could get quite creepy quite fast. At some point, Coil is going to feel the need to apologize to Dinah for the whole kidnapping and drugging thing. Whether he honestly *believes* himself is another question entirely, but he'll come to the conclusion that it's a thing he should do. That's where things can go different ways.

Maybe Dinah decides he has nothing to apologize for, that she discovered she has a masochistic streak in much the same way Coil has a sadistic one, deliberately inflicting (temporary) harm upon herself in the timelines that are going to be collapsed. Or giving herself lethal doses of narcotics for basically the ultimate rush. Coil's reaction is... well, the less gets said about this path, the better.

Or maybe she accepts the apology (probably doesn't believe it, either, but accepts it) and from there on she's the 'heir apparent' to his empire... something of an adopted daughter... becoming a little Machiavellian bitch with a mentality something like a blend of Accord and Tattletale, delighting in the use of her power to prove herself superior to others. Indulging in complicated mindgames with her victims.

Either way, Coil's more than happy to indulge her. He uses his wealth and power to make her happy and feed whatever excesses she feels like testing out. She uses her power to make him even more wealthy and powerful, giving her access to even greater opportunities. Canon diverges at the point where Coil willingly lets Dinah go as was his deal with Skitter. Dinah just as willingly comes back a couple days later (she's not on drugs, don't forget, so no recovery needed), more than happy to be in the employ of her kidnapper. Also smugly amused at Taylor's guilt over her role in the kidnapping.

However you look at it, Brockton Bay is well and truly fucked.

 

Is it bad that I kinda want to read a fanfic about this? It's a fucked up premise but it sounds so... interesting.

 

As opposed to keeping her a drugged prisoner in his basement?

Is a consensual relationship your hot-button trigger?

Or do you mean all pairbonds start fucking?

 

Well probably never get that unless someone else writes it, but given that Tana has said that Price will go more in depth into the whole pairbond thing than Amelia did, i wouldnt be surprised if atleased one relationship sharing that basic theme didnt come up. Or something like it.

Hey now, you can take that filth to the NSFW board. As far as fetishes go, thats pretty twisted.

 

Nah, we already had basically that in Amelia, including the fact that it was an underage girl with a partner old enough to be her parent.

Lisa: "Hold my hand, you filthy old harlot."

Becky: "I am going to brush my thumb over your slutty underage knuckle and there is nothing you can do to stop me."

Lisa: "You wouldn't dare. I'll raise one eyebrow two millimeters."

Becky: "You know you want it."

 

Though, on a related note, that bit in the end where lisa cut off her power when it was about to tell her that Rebecca 'Would like it if-" . I always figured it was going to say something like '-if you called her mom in bed'. Bet she liked roleplay

But yea, I look forward to Price and all its gloriously unhealthy relationships. Also more Zach, because you can never have enough Zach.

Let me guess, hes going to be bonded to someone who can summon grasshoppers?

 

So. Much. Shipping. Bait.

I mean, seriously, even if the pairbond is entirely platonic, people are going to assume shit.

 

Yes. It's horrible and you're horrible for thinking it. Shame on you. You should be instead thinking of ways to get someone to write it.

They all fall somewhere on the sliding scale between really close friends, and fucking like rabbits. A fairly significant minority do wind up more like Taylia and Lisa/Rebecca in the whole 'don't swing that way, but no longer swing anywhere else either'. And every so often you have a pairbond like Gemini. Because twin brothers who like to invite women back for a threeway? You don't need to be Freud to draw conclusions.

I'm sorely tempted. I wouldn't want to step on Worm's toes however. Much of what the two settings share is pretty generic, but characters like that are kinda snuggling up with the line.

Hell. *I* want it. Why is there not more Amelia based smut? Oh, right, all my readers are lazy fucks.

That means it'll be super popular, right? Like a less shitty Twilight?

Oh, yeah, especially amongst the supers community where they know how this shit goes down. I'm actually considering having a pair of bungling idiot heroes that everyone "knows" are pairbonded, but they really aren't and... well, ever seen the Ambiguously Gay Duo? It's like that, but toned down enough to fit in a setting that takes itself seriously.

 

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

And ... sometimes it's not. It's really not.

So file off the serial numbers. Change things up a bit.

Sorry, currently busy with my own smut

... that does't actually narrow the field down any.

I was actually thinking of the whole Batman/Robin controversy; Wertham and his Seduction of the Innocent. Canonically, Batman and Robin are not a gay couple. But enough people thought that they could be that they killed off Alfred (because a third man in the house was so bad) and brought in Aunt Harriet.

Yeah, that shit happened.

 

I've seen worse. People attempted to ban Heidi on the basis of suspicion that she could have been being molested... yeah, you heard me.

 

Whodi?

 

Huh.

Honestly, I could see both Coil and Dinah taking some pride in that assumption, for different reasons.

Coil gets to look more evil and controlling, and he gets to treat Dinah as a trusted subordinate in public, which caters to his actual canon fetish (which was being liked and respected by his obedient and loyal underlings).

Dinah gets to look more grown-uppy... which isn't a necessary part of her character, but we don't know much about her character outside of her canon role as plot-device. Wanting to be more grown-uppy certainly fits Vista perfectly, and we might assume that underage superpower badasses have that trait in common.

The fact that he'd "show her off" in public by treating her like a trusted lieutenant would not hurt their relationship at all.

Basically all Coil has to do is refrain from raping Dinah for a couple of years, and my prediction is that the relationship will become physical at her behest. Since he didn't touch her at all in canon, I don't really see that being a problem.

 

He didn't touch her in canon, in the timelines that he kept. The inference was that he did things to her (and his other minions) in the timelines that he dropped. Torture and murder almost certainly, rape not unlikely.