Amelia, Worm AU [Complete]

tilkau · Feb 24, 2015

WizardTwo said:
There's a difference between 'A conscious' and 'Being conscious'. When I'm using the word, I'm not referring to 'being awake and aware'. I'm referring to a distinct entity, as I believe that each consciousness is its own unique being, regardless of wether there are other beings out there which share its memories.

.. I don't think anybody is objecting to you having this point of view. It's a known philosophical position on consciousness that is reasonably credible.
And having fears about it, given that you have that view, is perfectly logical.

But the whole question of what the correct position is, is not settled. Thus, when you say that Theo's attitude is wrong, you have made a false statement. There are other credible philosophical positions on this topic, and Theo appears to hold one of them.

Maybe that position is incorrect, but barring author fiat 'consciousness works X way in my story', both of you have equal credibility -- neither position is obviously wrong, but nor is either position clearly correct.

WizardTwo · Feb 24, 2015

tilkau said:
.. I don't think anybody is objecting to you having this point of view. It's a known philosophical position on consciousness that is reasonably credible.
And having fears about it, given that you have that view, is perfectly logical.

But the whole question of what the correct position is, is not settled. Thus, when you say that Theo's attitude is wrong, you have made a false statement. There are other credible philosophical positions on this topic, and Theo appears to hold one of them.

Maybe that position is incorrect, but barring author fiat 'consciousness works X way in my story', both of you have equal credibility -- neither position is obviously wrong, but nor is either position clearly correct.

I didn't say that though. In fact, the whole trust of my argument was aimed at people OTHER than Theo, and that I thought it was a little odd that they were willing to kill him to revive Zack.

But then Tanari explained how this healing was working, and how sting works, and I withdrew my objections.

The only statement I can think of which you may be referencing, is the statement that a clone is a new person in the sense of the continuity of the concious. Which it is. If you accept that continuity of the concious is necessary for a someone to be the same person. The counter argument was simply that some people didn't think this was the case.

Ack · Feb 24, 2015

WizardTwo said:
The counter argument was simply that some people didn't think this was the case.

I don't think anyone here actually thinks that.

WizardTwo · Feb 24, 2015

Ack said:
I don't think anyone here actually thinks that.

cosoco said:
If the martian is actually identical to me, in mind and body, then sure, it's me. If not, then not. Drawing the line at interrupted consciousness seems ridiculous.

abyssmal_kismet said:
It's a matter of philosophy. I, personally, feel the mind and all it contains is more important than some silly concept of continuity of consciousness. If I have a clone of me that is exactly the same as me in all regards, then they are, effectively, me, whether or not this meat-puppet is still alive at the same time or not.

Is that not what both of these people are explicitly stating?

cosoco · Feb 24, 2015

WizardTwo said:
The only statement I can think of which you may be referencing, is the statement that a clone is a new person in the sense of the continuity of the concious. Which it is. If you accept that continuity of the concious is necessary for a someone to be the same person. The counter argument was simply that some people didn't think this was the case.

I'm not sure that it's a counter argument so much that I define my terms differently. If you want to argue that I shouldn't consider a perfect clone of myself equivalent to myself, then I'm interested in hearing your reasoning.

pepperjack · Feb 24, 2015

WizardTwo said:
Is that not what both of these people are explicitly stating?

Nope! They're saying their concepts of identity don't rely on continuity of consciousness. Presumably (and if this is too presumptive, I apologize to these folks), these same people would still consider the clone to be "them" even if their original self was not dead at the time the clone-self became conscious.

(I would further guess that, in the case both were alive, that they would consider their identities to diverge at that point, but now I'm just guessing.)

WizardTwo · Feb 24, 2015

pepperjack said:
Nope! They're saying their concepts of identity don't rely on continuity of consciousness. Presumably (and if this is too presumptive, I apologize to these folks), these same people would still consider the clone to be "them" even if their original self was not dead at the time the clone-self became conscious.

(I would further guess that, in the case both were alive, that they would consider their identities to diverge at that point, but now I'm just guessing.)

I was explicitly talking about consciousness, and at least kismet states he considers his clones to be the same person, wether or not 'he' is still alive. They never used the word identity, and they quoted me talking about continuity of the conscious making you the same person, and said they disagreed. You cannot get more clear than that?

Hell, they'd have no reason to disagree with me about identity, because I also said that two identical people can have the same identity. I never said that IDENTITY has anything to do with continuity of the concious. Someone who has your memories and your body and thinks they're you, has the same identity as you.

But they are NOT the same existence. The same concious.

cosoco · Feb 24, 2015

pepperjack said:
Nope! They're saying their concepts of identity don't rely on continuity of consciousness. Presumably (and if this is too presumptive, I apologize to these folks), these same people would still consider the clone to be "them" even if their original self was not dead at the time the clone-self became conscious.

(I would further guess that, in the case both were alive, that they would consider their identities to diverge at that point, but now I'm just guessing.)

Yes, that's my opinion.

I think you misread WizardTwo's post, though.

pepperjack · Feb 24, 2015

cosoco said:
Yes, that's my opinion.

I think you misread WizardTwo's post, though.

So I did.

That'll teach me to step in to arguments that I'm not a party to, I suppose.

No, it won't.

WizardTwo · Feb 24, 2015

pepperjack said:
So I did.

That'll teach me to step in to arguments that I'm not a party to, I suppose.

No, it won't.

I won't forgive you. I've written your name down in my little black book of people who dared to disagree with me. One day, you'll all get your comeuppance. One day.

abyssmal_kismet · Feb 24, 2015

Ack said:
I don't think anyone here actually thinks that.

pepperjack said:
Nope! They're saying their concepts of identity don't rely on continuity of consciousness. Presumably (and if this is too presumptive, I apologize to these folks), these same people would still consider the clone to be "them" even if their original self was not dead at the time the clone-self became conscious.

(I would further guess that, in the case both were alive, that they would consider their identities to diverge at that point, but now I'm just guessing.)

It is, indeed, what I was saying. *shrug* Well, I would like to point out that I DO think that a perfect clone should be considered a different person after some vague amount of life experience. Random example: the you that went to college isn't the same person five years down the road as the you that didn't. A better example: a dragon offshoot, at time of creation, is the same person. A year later, they are not, and might have two entirely diverging personalities.

A great example of this concept is in the character the Teatime Anarchist from Wearing the Cape. The villain and the main character's time-travelling helper are the same person, with but a microsecond (or something like that) of difference. They ended up taking two different views in an argument, and later down the road, developed two entire diverging personalities. At what point are they two different people? You might as well ask at what point a ship that you replace every part of it becomes a different ship. It isn't a very clear thing, but the point is, directly after the divergence, they are, in my opinion, the same person.

Eh, there's no real debate going on at this point; it's a matter of opinion, like I stated right at the beginning.

Divabot · Feb 24, 2015

WizardTwo said:
I'd still use the technology, because that kind of immortality is better than none at all, but only very slightly from my perspective. From the perspective of other people who loved me though, its almost perfect.

Yeah. As I said, think of it as life insurance: if you die, there's a backup you to take care of stuff.

Divabot · Feb 24, 2015

WizardTwo said:
Yes, its contrived, but its an attempt to explain the issue. You are a distinct conciousness, and when that conciousness ends forever, you have died. That's how I consider the issue.

The trouble is, consciousness isn't continuous anyway. Even when you're awake, the illusion of continuous awareness is a lie your brain tells itself after the fact. (Brains, man. Don't trust 'em.)

edale · Feb 24, 2015

TanaNari said:
Might have something to do with the backlash that happened when Taylor's identity went public. I was led to understand that cost a few people their careers.

Erm...having trouble remembering this, what happened that caused backlash with Taylor's reveal? All I can remember is that Pantheon was planning for it to happen.

Veronica Mars said:
Race, however, should go the way of the dodo, and I do my best to hurry it along. So I will talk about it as often, frequently, and loudly as I can; since constantly talking about something's the BEST way to get people to ignore something.

FTFY. Sadly, not everyone's a rationalist, and talking to some of them as one can have the opposite effect...

Daunmi said:
Although, with Riley you'd have a hell of a lot more 'optional extras' included!

Inverness said:
Someone really should launch Missy into orbit then see if she can pull the Moon closer to Earth.

NO! Then we'll have to call Zelretch to blow the moon back into it's proper orbit....again. Do you really want to bring HIS attention onto you?.

Inverness said:
Actually, that may not be as good an idea as I thought it was.

Good, lesson learned.

Snake/Eater said:
nah,i think she would go for somthing more challenging...Millennium 3D Chess

dasstan said:
edit: Also, to horn in on Snakey's schtick...

Sad thing is...Your song choice is more appropriate for the chapter

Snake/Eater said:
plz,i encourage it.there should be a Amelia playlist by now..everyone horn in and put music and make playlists,

Please don't.

dasstan said:
To be fair, my suggestion was just a teensy bit tongue in cheek.

Sad thing is...Your song choice is more appropriate for the chapter.

cosoco said:
I think you've identified an interesting edge case. It would be strange to say that he dies every time he teleports - from his perspective his perception is uninterrupted - but what happens to him is bad.

For the purposes of terminology, maybe we should say that he experiences a little death after every teleport.

It's canon and WoG that Oni Lee creates a copy of himself, then the original dies a few seconds later. So yes, Oni Lee dies every time he uses his power, and it's a copy taking his place.

Back on the SB boards I raised the point that since Zach is a bud of Oni Lee, it's possibly he suffers from the same personality degradation. Looks like we're about to find out definitively. Hundreds of thousands of copies. Thankfully backup tech can fix this... To a point. Problem is, Zach's never made a backup.

Ack said:
... and here's a relevant comic page on the subject. Just for shits & giggles.
Beam me up

Someone posted this in SB when the same discussion popped up.

WizardTwo said:
I won't forgive you. I've written your name down in my little black book of people who dared to disagree with me. One day, you'll all get your comeuppance. One day.

WizardTwo · Feb 24, 2015

Divabot said:
The trouble is, consciousness isn't continuous anyway. Even when you're awake, the illusion of continuous awareness is a lie your brain tells itself after the fact. (Brains, man. Don't trust 'em.)

Read back, this point has already been argued and discussed.
----------

I just had a realisation. I'm sure someone else has already drawn the same conclusion, but I know what Taylor and Amelia's relationship reminds me of now. Its Nanoha and Fate all over again.

'No, we're totally just platonic life partners who sleep in the same bed and have daughter and may or may not be married.'

jaelin910 · Feb 24, 2015

Faraway-R said:
And I guess I know where Victoria could have gotten the idea. The Horribly Slow Murderer with the Extremely Inefficient Weapon.

ehh, I dunno... can you really call it inefficient when she used a two day Bieber marathon and was about to start on Friday?though I guess I'm thinking about effectiveness more than efficiency.
are we talking time or effort?
Time? she's put in a few days and might have needed to put in a few more. a fair bit but not a huge amount.
Effort? following him around wouldn't be all that easy but probably isn't too difficult. playing songs at him? that's probably one of the most efficient possible methods available.

TanaNari said:
He's losing approximately twelve to thirteen full liters of blood a minutes.

litres of blood a minute

LurkerGuy · Feb 24, 2015

jaelin910 said:
litres of blood a minute

Nope, liter is one of the several English words with different spellings depending on dialect, and the proper spelling for the American dialects is the one TanaNari used.

edit:though the incorrect pluralization of 'minutes' you pointed out was a legitimate error

Beyogi · Feb 24, 2015

LurkerGuy said:
Nope, liter is one of the several English words with different spellings depending on dialect, and the proper spelling for the American dialects is the one TanaNari used.

Yeah... the real problem with that sentence is the number of liters, not wether they're spelled litre or liter.

wikipedia said:
Blood accounts for 7% of the human body weight,[3][4] with an average density of approximately 1060 kg/m3, very close to pure water's density of 1000 kg/m3.[5] The average adult has a blood volume of roughly 5 litres (11 US pt),[4]

So is that a fancy way of saying that he's bled dry in half a minute or just a mistake?

Alterego9 · Feb 24, 2015

Beyogi said:
So is that a fancy way of saying that he's bled dry in half a minute or just a mistake?

He is respawning far quicker than half a minute, so he is not bled dry.

edale · Feb 24, 2015

He's losing blood that fast, his powers just put it back in his body as fast as he loses it.

*edit- Grammar.

The Unicorn · Feb 24, 2015

Beyogi said:
So is that a fancy way of saying that he's bled dry in half a minute or just a mistake?

Since he keeps reforming every couple of seconds I'd guess neither - just one more demonstration of how bullshit parahuman powers are.

TanaNari · Feb 24, 2015

Amelia, Ch 262- Zach

I woke up gasping. How the fuck am I in pain?

"Don't panic," Emma's voice insisted, putting her hands on both my shoulders. That's when I figured out I was laying down on a bed or something. "We'll explain in a minute, but for right now, you need to stay calm, okay?"

"Y'know," I looked above my head at her. She looks worried. "I'm pretty sure the scariest words in the English language are 'you need to stay calm'. Either that or 'Honey, I think I'm pregnant'."

She smiled. "Stop being such a jackass." Good, it's not that big a deal.

"Okay, he's stable," Amelia's voice spoke up. "Couldn't hurt to get a little more of that biogel over here, however."

"This doesn't seem like the most efficient healing system," a male voice I didn't recognize spoke up. Considering we were obviously in one of our buildings, I'd have to... wait, healing? Well, this can't be a good sign. Oh, right, I remember. The new Endbringer. Copying the powers of others. I recognized Shatterbird in the mix. And Lily. I was stabbed by Lily's power.

"We can improve on that," Emma said, looking over to my side. I followed the glance. Oh, Chevalier, his armor looks different. "We have some very comprehensive scans of your power, and now a pretty good idea of how the human folding works. Size is only a passing limitation, considering how your power works. Give us a little time. I bet we can create a pocket sized organic doll that will let you impose your newfound power on almost any humanoid."

"You're sure about that?" he asked.

"Oh, and then some," Emma responded cheerfully. She's adorable when she slips into Tinker mode. "There are a number of individuals who can't be healed by conventional methods. Zach was one, but Alexandria is in a similar situation. Your folding power will, functionally, allow you to transfer any injuries to the copy, which we can keep suspended in a nutrient mix and give what are, effectively, regenerative powers to. It won't be able to repair brain damage, probably. You'd need to work with an actual parahuman regenerator for that."

"Could do even more than that," Vicky responded. "We know Case 53s regenerate back to their default state. But what happens when another type of regeneration gives them a different form? I could have done a lot more when linked up to Crystal's body. The changes that happened there were accidental, but if I actively push and control it, then I bet I can establish pretty close to human state. And my regeneration works on brains, too."

Emma leaned down and gave me soft kiss. Her mouth was cool to the touch, as was normal. "Be back in a second," she told me, before stepping away. I felt the temperature drop almost immediately. She paused for a moment. "That should work, with exception to nonorganic Case 53s such as myself or Weld. But the vast majority are still organic, if only sometimes humanoid. You won't be able to correct the genetic deviations, and it's possible that future healing or shapeshifting powers will undo the changes, but there's no reason you can't correct the physical shape, nerve system changes, and a number of other traits."

"Sounds like something I'll need to contact the Chief Director about," Chevalier replied. "However, I can't imagine a scenario where she'd say no. Finding a way to help the Case 53s, or most of them at least, is a major goal for us."

"Alexandria might be a little pissed to lose her badass backup," Vicky added. "But she's getting an eye and a leg in the trade. And since I like her, I'll even throw in a complete upgrade to her neural system. Wonder what she'll think about gaining the ability to smell and hear with better details than most humans can get out of their eyes. And if that works out, we can probably make a killing by charging people for biological upgrades. Think a million bucks per twenty IQ points is a fair trade?"

"I start making the phone calls," Lisa volunteered. "The Chief Director already told me to call her when I found some real results." Yeah, I bet she did. At this rate those two will be married before Taylor and Amelia. "Come on, Chevalier, let's go do beauracracy while the doctors and scientists do what they're good at."

The man moved away. "So, is it safe for me to get up, now?" I asked no one in particular.

"Yeah, you're in perfect health," Vicky spoke up. "Better than you were by a long shot. Ames might have taken the opportunity to tweak your biology while she had a way around your power's defenses."

"You caught me," Amelia replied. "Pretty much just the same things that the cloning tech gives by default, but angled toward more bulk and strength than normal. Your power means you don't need a more stamina focused build."

"Awesome," I sat up, and felt hair peel off my back and remain stuck to the table I was laying on. I shuddered involuntarily. Then I looked over at Theo, who was drenched in blood. "The fuck happened to you, dude?"

Clarice went to speak, but Theo interrupted him. "Nothing you need to worry about right now."

"Dude," I smirked at him. "I woke up half naked and sticky next to another half naked guy who's covered in blood, and surrounded by a bunch of fully clothed women, plus a couple other men. Something really fucking weird happened here. And I'm going to bet that whatever it is was probably both more strange and less fun than it sounds."

"Oh, come on, guys, it'll be easier for everyone just to come clean," Vicky declared. "You remember getting attacked by that last Endbringer, right?"

"Yeah, I remember," I agreed. And the couple hours that came after it before Rapture and Emma put together something that put me into a sort of coma.

"Well, that was two and a half weeks ago," she informed. "Since then, everyone's been worried sick about your dumb ass, and trying to figure out a way to fix you despite your power. We tried all kinds of things. Like this one parahuman that heals people by drooling on them."

"So... I'm covered in spit?" I asked.

"Yup," Vicky confirmed nonchalantly. "Miss Mushroom found a way that worked, by punching reality in the nuts and transferring your injuries to someone else."

Transferring my... "I had a hole in my chest big enough to stick my hand through!" I exclaimed, looking at Theo. Transfered injury. That is a lot of blood, and all of it is his. Amelia had a fair bit spattered on her as well, but from the looks of it, she'd been coverting it to plant matter. "You did that for me? Where the hell do you get your modesty lessons from?"

"It's not that big of a deal," Theo insisted. "People donate organs all the time. This was less heroic than that, since they don't get their organs back, and don't have parahuman surgeons and healers to make sure everything goes correctly."

At that time, Riley rushed into the room. I thought Clarice was being a little too still. He saved my life. How do I? "Thanks, man."

"You'd do the same for me," he replied. "We're a team, we got each others' backs." Riley hugged him at about the same moment, ignoring all the gore. "Case in point," he said, patting the girl's back. "She's the one who came up with this crazy plan."

"Yeah," I agreed. Would I have, situation reversed? Maybe. With some of the most powerful healers in the room to help? Yeah, I could do that. "Still gotta find a way to thank you, though. Tell you what, I'll let you win next time we break out one of the racing games."

"Let me win?" he scoffed. "I didn't give you a skill transplant."

"Theo's been thanked enough, I think," Vicky laughed.

Am I missing something? She smirked at me. Then tilted her head to where Riley was still cuddling against Theo. No fucking way. I looked at Missy, who had managed to find a place to touch his arm that wasn't covered in blood. She didn't seem bothered by this. "You're fucking kidding me," I declared. "Both of them?"

He blushed. "Thanks a lot, dude," he muttered. "I was trying to keep that a secret."

"From who?" Vicky asked. "Everyone knew. And I do mean everyone. Show of hands, did anyone in this room not know?"

Eric raised his. He was alone in that. "Guess I've been a bit out of the loop."

"Well, good for them," I smiled. "Theo, all I can offer you is pity. Maybe a place to hide if you need one." Missy and Riley both stuck their tongues out at me. "So, any other earth shattering news?"

"Umm... nothing you need to worry about," Vicky replied. "I'm California's favorite parahuman right now. Soon to be Philly's. I think it'll be fun."

"I bet," Crystal muttered. "Seriously, Vicky. What the hell?"

"Hey," she shrugged. "I have a type." A type? What the fuck are they talking about?

"As fun as this is," I interrupted. "I really need a shower right now." Also need to get away from all these people. I'm not good at this kind of shit. Especially when shirtless and covered in drool.

"Yeah, me too," Theo agreed.

"That's probably a good idea," Missy agreed. "You, too, Riley. A different shower."

"Dibs on the kitty shower!" Riley declared. No one fought her for it.

====================

A/N- Yay kitty baths.

daimahou · Feb 24, 2015

We need a spin-off starring Victoria Dallon.

TanaNari said:
"So... I'm covere in spit?" I asked.

covered

dasstan · Feb 24, 2015

TanaNari said:
Amelia, Ch 262- Zach

Rejoice, our favorite OC lives again.

I'm really looking forward to seeing the implications of Chevy's novel power application. This is going to be terrifying/awesome.

TanaNari said:
I looked at Missy, who had managed to find a place to touch his arm hat wasn't covered in blood

that

AkuArkaine · Feb 24, 2015

Yah gotta wonder if she will be as eager for kitty baths when she clues in on all those little things you don't know as a kid.

GiftofLove · Feb 24, 2015

Peanuckle · Feb 24, 2015

TanaNari said:
"Dibs on the kitty shower!" Riley declared. No one fought her for it.

"I don't get it! I made it to be especially efficient and environmentally friendly!"

CptTagon · Feb 24, 2015

TanaNari said:
over a Theo

at

TanaNari said:
And the couple hours that came after it before Rapture and Emma put together something that put me into a sort of coma.

Ouch.

Mogget · Feb 24, 2015

I wonder if Chevalier can fold a powerful cape into a blank clone, giving them two bodies to fight with at once. (Or a spare to fight Endbringers with or something.)

GiftofLove · Feb 24, 2015

He can fold the Endslayers together.

Imagine that.

Then imagine them stuffed into Alexandria, and thus made invincible.

Amelia, Worm AU [Complete]

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