Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

[DelightedOne]

About that, was it really that surprising?

I always thought Sacraments were going to be hyperspecific powers but it seems like the expectation was for them to be more fluid.

 

[Pittauro]

Sacraments are almost entirely irrelevant for All-In. A single extra Torn Risen is quadruple the total Lore levels of +1 sacrament, and +5 personal combat on Velvet is not going to make or break her compared to bringing an extra MITL for raw combat encounters. All-in was presumably designed and balanced before Selene even existed, since Selene was only a thing because Luna rolled a nat100, so we're bringing an effective Edge 4 Name-equivalent entirely extra that the dungeon wasn't originally balanced around.

We dont KNOW for sure that Smiles can't be Befriended without making an enemy of Biedde, we only know that taking his Sacrament does. They might be different mechanics entirely or they might not. Smiles being in All-In is really not necessary anyway. We were already doing well on preparations by committing to Mareinette after all.

Sacraments are powerful and important but reaching Glory is not a matter of collecting all of them.

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You're forgetting a couple things

1) All In was not something we HAD to go through in all scenarios. If, say, we had given Selene to Celestia, joining her faction, it's very possible that she would have just given us Discord's statue.

Or, you know, if the events of Canterlot had not happened, he might still have been in the gardens, and thus be far more accessible.

2) It's fair to assume that Smiles friendship does not REQUIRE making Biedde an enemy. It's possible though, and I'm going to assume that's likely to make it easier even if not mandatory. Admittedly we don't know for sure.

3)We saw how realizations have helped us outside of expeditions. See the forge reagents, the Risen summons, SH book search bonus before we mostly outgrew shopping for books, Lantern allowing us to study more per action and giving less effort to our previous job, DANCING WITH DEATH...

It's only reasonable to assume Sacraments are better. and over the next 3 to 5 turns (I'm going to assume we won't have more before All In) it's likely to be of help.

...yes, I know, the Silver Key has not exactly helped so far. Still, it's only the first one we've seen, and we don't even know how good it is yet!

3) After All In there's the Mansus expedition, where ONLY Velvets can go. extra levels (and maybe some Sacrament powers) will be useful there, Names would not be of any help there. And I think we were even told we can't use Name Influences there (as it's an in-between-turns expedition, after the previous turn's influences expire but before we can ask for new ones).

One of these days it will! And then you'll see! Then you'll all see!

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Surely it will help us one day

About that, was it really that surprising?

I always thought Sacraments were going to be hyperspecific powers but it seems like the expectation was for them to be more fluid.

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I mean, some realization powers are fairly specific too. I was basing my expectations on "like that, but stronger".

We still only have the one example, which doesn't tell us much. if Smiles or Biedde side wins (probably Smiles really), we should be able to finally get a usable sacrament to judge from.

 

[spiderhellian]

Well I really do think we ought to take the Map, and ought not to leave the creature alive. It's just asking for a mess of minimal value. So I'll toss in a vote for leaving the poor Minion as well…

[X] Plan: The Right Path Forward
[X] Plan: The Rich Path Forward
[X] Plan: The Mothy Path Forward

 

[DelightedOne]

...yes, I know, the Silver Key has not exactly helped so far. Still, it's only the first one we've seen, and we don't even know how good it is yet!

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Ah, yes. The Sacrament that explicitly says we need to find interesting stuff to interact with to use(like the EG Mirror).

I'm sure we will use it soon while not going anywhere that is not our work or home.

 

[Pittauro]

Ah, yes. The Sacrament that explicitly says we need to find interesting stuff to interact with to use(like the EG Mirror).

I'm sure we will use it soon while not going anywhere that is not our work or home.

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we just went somewhere very interesting! (if for work).

EDIT: also it doesn't get much more interesting than the mansus!

 

[Wise Wolf]

[X] Plan: The Mothy Path Forward
-[X] (MAP) Take it for yourself.
-[X] (PRISONER) Leave him.
-[X] (LOOT) I will steal from the poor, innocent pony prisoners.
-[X] (THING) Kill it.


[X] You will take the coward's way out.

 

[DelightedOne]

we just went somewhere very interesting! (if for work).

EDIT: also it doesn't get much more interesting than the mansus!

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I would say it was half-interesting, just a camp full of monsters, a recent one at that. The only really interesting thing was the... well, the thing. And unless studying it triggers the Silver Key...

And the Mansus is way beyond interesting but it was still a scripted encounter, so I doubt it would have much. If the Silver Key can even be used there.

The Silver Key: There are certain mechanisms, locks or cogs or perhaps even laws, that are scattered in this world. You can now interact with them. (You will recognize them when you see them).

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I guess the wording is vague enough and the Mansus is part of the world, so it could work.

Of course we still need to go to the right place.

Church, Valley of Keys, Concursum, Final Gate, Broken Gate, even the Workshop. They all sound like they could trigger it, the gates in particular(cause Knock). The worst part is not having retroactive confirmation of their compatibility.

 

[Sveta08]

[X] Plan: The Mothy Path Forward
-[X] (MAP) Take it for yourself.
-[X] (PRISONER) Leave him.
-[X] (LOOT) I will steal from the poor, innocent pony prisoners.
-[X] (THING) Kill it.


[X] You will take the coward's way out.


Patdon my lack of responses much. Christmas is a priority.
But, I suppose if any option of having Silky gain an Uncle while not loosing a grandfather is available...
Well. That feels apt.

And besides. Not having Names named as Enemies feels good. Much as I am curious what the Lionsmith touched sacrament may do.

Everybody loves little horse fangs after all.

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

Are we still intent on getting the edge sacrament? I'm not optimistic about finding a worthy opponent with the time remaining given the past opportunities we passed up as such as Comet Feet. A sacrament from Smiles down the line will more than likely be another battle and will inevitably piss off Biedde. If we are to piss off Biedde, might as well do it now before giving him multiple turns of pursuing religious goals to build up his edge cult for reliably resummoning himself.

The main consideration for me is that though it might be possible to have both edge names doing random expeditions, it is impossible to have Biedde for All-In. If we want to use Smiles, there's benefits to committing early. Otherwise we might be left at All-In with no edge name and no edge sacrament. A bad combination for killing something.

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Just sacrifice Biedde on the Sacrament Turn for an Edge Summon we can actually take on All-In and blitz the expedition same turn. His cult won't have time to react and he will be stuck in the Mansus.

 

[Sintonir]

Getting an extra Name is better than getting a Sacrament.

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Except we are getting an extra Name at best next turn, more likely a turn after that or even later, and need to pay more for the upkeep of that Name than if we take the offer. While we can get Sacrament right now.

 

[DelightedOne]

But, I suppose if any option of having Silky gain an Uncle while not loosing a grandfather is available...
Well. That feels apt.

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Nah, She will just lose an Uncle not gain one, Smiles would be more of a extroverted new hire on her house she gets along with.

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

Except we are getting an extra name at best next turn, more likely a turn after that or even later, and need to pay more for the upkeep of that Name than if we take the offer. While we can get Sacrament right now.

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And then need to dedicate AP and resources to fighting whatever faction Biedde has managed to set up during his time in the Wake. I'd rather not have to deal with such nonsense.

 

[Sveta08]

Nah, She will just lose an Uncle not gain one, Smiles would be more of a extroverted new hire on her house she gets along with.

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Mhmm. I see that, but I don't know about that.

As much as Silky is Velvets daughter, she is also Stormy's daughter. And that means a good something

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

Look Silky already adopted a Name as a sister, she can nab an Uncle.

 

[Solace2117]

[X] Plan No loose ends
-[X] (MAP) Take it for yourself.
-[X] (PRISONER) Leave him.
-[X] (LOOT) I will steal from the poor, innocent pony prisoners.
-[X] (THING) Kill it, and burn its corpse.

[X] Plan No loose ends with morals
-[X] (MAP) Take it for yourself.
-[X] (PRISONER) Leave him.
-[X] (LOOT) I will do the right thing, and not steal.
-[X] (THING) Kill it, and burn its corpse.

[X] Plan: The Mothy Path Forward

[X] You will take the coward's way out.

Keeping my plans cause I still think we should burn the thing, but The Mothy Path Forward has everything else and at least kills it. I still think capture isn't worth the risk and I want the map. Changing my vote to the coward's way for now. I want that Sacrament. Sacraments aren't just another level, they're a path forward. By itself it may not be as useful since it's just one level, but it's a way forward, we can't get to 6 or maybe seven without it. Ourladyofwires mentioned a while back that some Sacraments are more useful then others, though I'm still eternally hopeful for the Silver Key, but they're essentially more about unlocking the path forward, or something to that effect, and that's important. Having two Names is honestly probably more useful in the immediate time frame even with the added cost, which hurts, but damnit I want Sacraments. At the end of the day though I don't want to deal with Biedde as an enemy, but I would if it was only that. I want to see scenes of them being distracted and interacting with Silky, though that's not enough by itself. Really I just don't want to get drawn into their game. The Manse is broken, most of the hours are gone, and the way to Glory is blocked and yet they're playing the same game they always have and that's not a path I want Velvet to go down.

 

[Sintonir]

I really don't like that with the coward's way out we basically lose this AP and one wound for nothing(yes, we got to know a new Name... Which we will summon a few turns later), while delaying a Sacrament enough to be very likely to not get it at all

And then need to dedicate AP and resources to fighting whatever faction Biedde has managed to set up during his time in the Wake. I'd rather not have to deal with such nonsense.

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With Smiles fighting whatever Biedde managed to set up would be easy, at most we'd need some scrying to know who we actually fight

 

[spiderhellian]

Honestly, I'm just somewhat offended by Biedde. And we really haven't used him for much. A Sacrament and a free more useful name seems like a worthy trade.

[X] You will take Smiles' offer
[X] Plan: The Mothy Path Forward
[X] Plan The Rich Path Forward

 

[DelightedOne]

I really don't like that with the coward's way out we basically lose this AP and one wound for nothing, while delaying a Sacrament enough to be very likely to not get it at all

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I'm not sure this is a delay at all. In fact, it feels more like a warning.

Here we discovered that the Colonel would give Velvet an Edge Sacrament and not Biedde, while also binding her to his service, we also discovered that if we choose Smiles' Sacrament now Biedde will become an Enemy.

Who is to say that won't happen if we summon Smiles and ask for his Sacrament later?

We only had to wound Biedde because he wanted a worthy pawn to his Lord, that was not an actual requirement. If we decide to take Smiles' Sacrament later, the Colonel won't be able to use Velvet properly, she will become a piece he can't control.

And I just know he won't like that, not when she was involved with another incident(Comet Feet).

 

[Sintonir]

Who is to say that won't happen if we summon Smiles and ask for his Sacrament later?

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That would almost certainly happen.
The only way to maybe get this Sacrament without picking a side is to kill a Worthy Enemy. Even then, it is not unlikely we'll be forced to pick a side.
And it is such a huge delay we are unlikely to do it ever until the end of the quest.

 

[SilentPencil]

[X] You will take Smiles' offer.
[X] Plan: The Mothy Path Forward

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

I want that Sacrament. Sacraments aren't just another level, they're a path forward. By itself it may not be as useful since it's just one level, but it's a way forward, we can't get to 6 or maybe seven without it. Ourladyofwires mentioned a while back that some Sacraments are more useful then others, though I'm still eternally hopeful for the Silver Key, but they're essentially more about unlocking the path forward, or something to that effect, and that's important. Having two Names is honestly probably more useful in the immediate time frame even with the added cost, which hurts, but damnit I want Sacraments. At the end of the day though I don't want to deal with Biedde as an enemy, but I would if it was only that. I want to see scenes of them being distracted and interacting with Silky, though that's not enough by itself. Really I just don't want to get drawn into their game. The Manse is broken, most of the hours are gone, and the way to Glory is blocked and yet they're playing the same game they always have and that's not a path I want Velvet to go down.

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Additionally, finding sufficient Scraps to hit Edge 6 would require dedicated effort we haven't even been able to muster for reaching Heart 4. Reaching Levels 6 and 7 in any Lore before All-In is... unlikely. Mostly due to being extremely inconvenient. But if you wanted to channel your inner Velvet, tell Glory to sit down and wait, and draw the game out further, then I shall note there is perfectly good Knock that can be leveled without taking any measures that royally piss off hyper-lethal entities.

Here we discovered that the Colonel would give Velvet an Edge Sacrament and not Biedde, while also binding her to his service, we also discovered that if we choose Smiles' Sacrament now Biedde will become an Enemy.

Who is to say that won't happen if we summon Smiles and ask for his Sacrament later?

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It probably would! Which is why you sacrifice Biedde and take Smile's Sacrament right before All-In, so that the old horse has no time to do anything to us!

I really don't like that with the coward's way out we basically lose this AP and one wound for nothing(yes, we got to know a new Name... Which we will summon a few turns later), while delaying a Sacrament enough to be very likely to not get it at all

With Smiles fighting whatever Biedde managed to set up would be easy, at most we'd need some scrying to know who we actually fight

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We'd need to spend an AP and some bits to scry, then more bits and AP for an Assault unless we think the only obstacles to the Assault will be Heart and Edge, in which case it just costs bits as we send Smiles solo. And we lose out on sending Biedde to any future expeditions and his free guard action. To all that I say bah. Feels like an unnecessary headache.

 

[DelightedOne]

It probably would! Which is why you sacrifice the Biedde and take Smile's Sacrament right before All-In, so that the old horse has no time to do anything to us!

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But then I wouldn't get the satisfaction of working to free Uncle Steppes and toppling the Colonel's plans.

I hate most of what he represents. Trading freedom for safety is just... eugh.

 

[Pittauro]

I really don't like that with the coward's way out we basically lose this AP and one wound for nothing(yes, we got to know a new Name... Which we will summon a few turns later), while delaying a Sacrament enough to be very likely to not get it at all

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That's not quite accurate. We could very well summon the Name next turn or the one after, depending on what we're willing to give up in terms of other bit-using stuffs (like the expeditions).

I do agree that it's unlikely we'll get the Edge Sacrament if we don't take it now, though.

Finding a worthy opponent is not easy, and most of us are not interested in Wolf.

We only had to wound Biedde because he wanted a worthy pawn to his Lord, that was not an actual requirement. If we decide to take Smiles' Sacrament later, the Colonel won't be able to use Velvet properly, she will become a piece he can't control.

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To be fair, the way he talked pre-"assessment" implied that if we were too weak we wouldn't survive what comes after... which means EITHER the Worm Museum (because, you know, there's Worms in there, it's inherently dangerous even if they're caged) or the meeting with the Colonel.

Smiles even says that "we wouldn't survive meeting the Lionsmith". Which MIGHT be a lie or exaggeration... but it kinda fits with Biedde's test being meant for us to be able to survive the meeting with the Colonel in the first place. It could fit with the Sacrament from an Hour being stronger/heavier than the Sacrament from a Name...

That would almost certainly happen.
The only way to maybe get this Sacrament without picking a side is to kill a Worthy Enemy. Even then, it is not unlikely we'll be forced to pick a side.
And it is such a huge delay we are unlikely to do it ever until the end of the quest.

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Technically there's the Wolf, unless you consider that "siding" with the Wolf, which... not exactly wrong, as our allegiance to the wolf can be measured by the Stains, sort of.

Additionally, finding sufficient Scraps to hit Edge 6 would require dedicated effort we haven't even been able to muster for reaching Heart 4. Reaching Levels 6 and 7 in any Lore before All-In is... unlikely. Mostly due to being extremely inconvenient. But if you wanted to channel your inner Velvet, tell Glory to sit down and wait, and draw the game out further, then I shall note there is perfectly good Knock that can be leveled without taking any measures that royally piss off hyper-lethal entities.

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...Hear me out, I KNOW I've said this multiple times and I have no proof, but... I still think the quest won't end after we reach Glory.

For one simple metagaming reason: It seems to me like it's basically impossible to reach Lore 7 in anything before All In, and it seems like somewhat poor design to make the highest lore levels downright unachievable in the course of the quest.


Just going from lvl 5 to lvl 7 takes would be 13 scraps. with books and artifacts being somewhat unreliable (difficult to find in appropriate number for the appropriate lore), the best way to get those would be using Name Lessons (with the rare scrap from books, artifacts and events, but let's ignore them for simplicity's sake).

without friendship, it's an action per turn. 13 turns. Unfeasible.

With friendship, half that, 6.5 turns.

Except we also need to first get the friendship itself. and the name.

On a different note... I wonder if, ASSUMING VELVET ACTUALLY BECOMES AN HOUR, if she'd become strong enough to reestablish a "truce" between Lionsmith and Colonel. We probably don't want EITHER to win, because, well, that would likely unbalance the Wake in dangerous ways.

 

[dcoconeo]

As for the Quest ending in 3-4 months, I certainly hope not.

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We take the Smiles Sacrament, we damn well commit to making sure it ends that way, because Wolf isn't going to save us from this opponent once he decides to strike?

 

[Arrkhon]

We take the Smiles Sacrament, we damn well commit to making sure it ends that way, because Wolf isn't going to save us from this opponent once he decides to strike?

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And how is he going to strike? With his probably non-existent cult?
We aren't even outright siding with Lionsmith against Colonel, just getting bribed into not joining him

 

[Solace2117]

Additionally, finding sufficient Scraps to hit Edge 6 would require dedicated effort we haven't even been able to muster for reaching Heart 4. Reaching Levels 6 and 7 in any Lore before All-In is... unlikely. Mostly due to being extremely inconvenient. But if you wanted to channel your inner Velvet, tell Glory to sit down and wait, and draw the game out further, then I shall note there is perfectly good Knock that can be leveled without taking any measures that royally piss off hyper-lethal entities.

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I will be disappointed if we don't hit six in something. I'd like to get all 5, but I don't know that it'll happen, maybe if we actually commit to enough expeditions, but probably don't have time. Really though I'm just interested in Sacraments and lore levels are important, but honestly Name friendships are probably more important.

I really don't like that with the coward's way out we basically lose this AP and one wound for nothing(yes, we got to know a new Name... Which we will summon a few turns later), while delaying a Sacrament enough to be very likely to not get it at all

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Getting the Name summons is far from nothing. Realistically as much as I want the Sacrament, turning Biedde against us isn't just a formality. We shouldn't underestimate a Name. Arguably getting Name friendships and not making enemies or getting involved in the disputes from before is just as useful. The MLP friendship aspect is just as important to the setting as the Cultist Simulator side.

For one simple metagaming reason: It seems to me like it's basically impossible to reach Lore 7 in anything before All In, and it seems like somewhat poor design to make the highest lore levels downright unachievable in the course of the quest.

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In fairness some of that is our own fault. We didn't prioritize making a cult. We focused more on family and Luna/Selene. I don't regret it and there's been benefits, but we likely could have advanced further if we made different choices.

 

[Sintonir]

I would also note that if we don't take Smiles' sacrament right here and now, later it will likely become harder.
At the very least we are likely to have a challenge on the level of inflicting a wound on Biedde. Which, as you could see, was a very close call for us this time.

 

[dcoconeo]

And how is he going to strike? With his probably non-existent cult?
We aren't even outright siding with Lionsmith against Colonel, just getting bribed into not joining him

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He already has Steppes, and QM only knows what else - if he can subvert the Lore studying branch there is his army.

And yeah, we aren't doing that (yet? - might be a condition for his Friendship), but when the mechanical text says that will make him your enemy...

I'm not saying 'don't do this', I'm saying 'please respect your foes and prioritise accordingly' is all here.

 

[Sintonir]

He already has Steppes, and QM only knows what else - if he can subvert the Lore studying branch there is his army.

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So we better not let him stay in the Wake and build up this army
He can't subvert anybody if he is stuck in the Mansus, and we likely can neutralize most if not all of the ponies he have subverted if we turn against him now.

 

[Mage_of_Eyes]

dies.

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probably should be 'died' here