Exalted 3E Discussion

Nekraa ... we are talking apples and oranges, I see.

I talk about Creation-Born that, somehow, transforms into Primordial in the Wyld. It's not impossible.But for the former Joe Nobody Nr2345534 it means "end" as human and beginning as Hentacle That Rapes The Heavens, Primordial, It Who Squirts A Lot On Your Face.

You talk about big-fuck-huge Wyld Mutant who believes himself to be Primordial like ... but lacks the Metaphysical Weight like the "real ones". And retains enough of "humanity template" that when Creation tries to remove the warped parts, it ends in death and reset.

And I am not talking about Bordermarches, it's just warped Creation or Middle Marches, still in Creation or even Deep Wyld wich is a border of Creation. I am speaking about true-blue Pure Chaos the part of the Wyld where the only part of Creation you have is what you bring with yourself. Namely, you.

That is bull and you know it. Creation isn't a centre of the "universe". It's too small, metaphysically and physically. It is designed as anti-Wyld vacation house for Primordials and nothing more.
Exalted and gods of Creation are too wimpy, metaphysically speaking, to change Creation to fit their naive beliefs. Some of them barely understand what Creation really is, if that much.

Raksha ... you forgot that those that come in contact with Creation are changed and warped by it? The whole obsession spiel from the fluff.

Defenses that cannot be overcome?! Then I guess all those Balorian Crusades and stuff was imagined. Or all those Exalted going into Wyld and mutating into monsters, or dissapearing with only Exaltation returning ... are pipe dreams.
The "time-can-go-one-way" is a bullshit agreement between defeated Primordials and victorious Exalted Host. Otherwise Primordials could push the rewind button time and again till preferable result happens.
There is also mention of using temporal weaponry that messed Creation up so badly that even Exalted didn't wish to use it no more.

As far as I am aware the only rules that apply in the Wyld, the Pure Chaos one I mentioned, are those you enforce yourself and Shinmaic ones.

 

There's this thing that allows the Exalted to shape Creation and change its rules. it's called sorcery.

 

No, it is. That's its fundamental nature. The wyld surrounds Creation.
That is why the Raksha hate it.

Creation is the only constant. Reality was bent during its creation.

Raksha are changed and warped by everything.

Remember how that worked out? Do you?

No, that happens. Rarely. It's not a result of their defences being overcome, however. It's a result of weakness of will, trickery, or simple lack of preparation.

There is no unshaped who can overcome a shaping defence.

It's not exactly an agreement. Rather, it's an alteration of the way the universe works.

If it were within the power of the Yozi, they would go back. Thus, they cannot.

The Time of Cascading Years tells us just how much the Exalted of the first age cared about consequence.

And the passage of time, and the existence of Creation.

 

I think that was a reference to the Primacy of Defense still being a thing.

There is also Sijan, all those funerary rites that they are famous for are Thaumaturgical Procedures.
IIRC The new fluff even mentions this, saying that Sijan can barely function because there are never enough Thaumaturges that know the correct rituals.

 

It is.

If it could barely function, it wouldn't exist.

 

Hence, why I don't think much of the new fluff.

 

At least the crunch is... Oh, right. Yeeaah.

 

I'm not for bashing the new edition. It has its upsides.

But what they did to thaumaturgy remains a crime against humanity.[/totallynotdramatichyperbole]

 

And Martial Arts.

And Craft. Poor, poor Craft.

 

I totes agree that they did some splendid work on things here and there. For example the complete overhaul of Sorcery systems, including the Workings, is awesome.

On the other hand ... what they did with Thuamaturgy is yes, a stupidity. Wouldn't it be simpler to say that Thaumaturgy is too puny for Exalted to learn? That charms override the subtleties of them with sheer, unmitigated power?
Where Thaumaturgy relies on nudging things patiently to achieve some results, Charms are quicker, more powerful and easier to use.

Show me an Exalt who'll dump XP and training into Thaumaturgical Art of Elemental Beckoning ... when he can just summon an Elemental and punch it till it does his bidding.

In all of my ST-ing and Playing of Exalted ... over 15 people ... TWO learned Thaumaturgy. One was a dude who wanted to use Solar Punch-Teaching charms to create an army of useful Thaumaturges with Awekened Essence.
Other was me.

EDIT: Valette-Serafina ... there is no Craft in Third Edition.

But it isn't a rule of Creation as far as I understand? It's game mechanic? Or if we speak in Creation-fluff, Shinmaic Law?

Ach, Sijan.

By new Thaumaturgy rules Sijan can't exist. It sits on bigass Shadowland, I think? Without funerary rites they drown in Hungry Ghosts. And Ghosts.

 

I...think it may have something to do with the Heaven-Piercing Spear.
Or maybe he was just the first one to take advantage of it.

It has multiple Shadowlands.

I had a character that learned Thaumaturgy because they just loved learning, and wanted to map out it's limitations.
Also, it is a way to get access to Second Circle Demons when you don't have Celestial Sorcery, and you can make non-Artifact Talismans.

 

A significant amount of my Exalted characters, even sorcerers, were also thaumaturges. I like the low-power ritual magic stuff, it has a different atmosphere than the world-shaking spells of sorcery.

 

I've been think about picking up thaum in my alchemical game since I don't really want the weaving engine.

It seems to be pretty useful if low power in ~Ex2.

 

Shinmatic law is more fundamental than that. Known Shinmatic laws include: Things exist, things have form, things interact, things are somewhere.

Regardless, the primacy of defence is a universal law. Nothing can break a perfect defence.

Ex2 Sorcery is direct, large scale, and requires comparatively little preparation.
Ex2 Thaumaturgy works within natural laws. It is slower, requires resources, and lacks the absolute power or scale of sorcery.

Sorcery demands sacrifice, it is loud, brash, and hard to teach.
Thaumaturgy simply requires knowledge. It is subtle, and almost everyone can learn it.

 

.

.

 

The net result is that mortals can reliably invoke divine miracles. A world in which a skilled weather worker can reliably bring much needed rain is very different than one in which even the most eloquent and knowledgeable priest or shaman is still fundamentally limited by divine whims.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding. Thaumaturgy can be reliably taught to those with the appropriate sensitivity. It's just that the esoteric insights required to grasp the miracle must be experienced first hand, as they are essentially impossible to encode into language.

What it does mean is that those with the talent to learn thamaturgy are a strategic resource, and that, particularly in isolated areas, critical miracles may be lost forever if there is no one in the next generation capable of learning them.

You're probably thinking of Varang, which has an extremely rigid caste system based on the exact time of day of birth. Actually accurate astrology... not so much.

And if one on one training from a master to an apprentice is bothersome, then we might as well cancel this whole civilization thing, because it's nothing compared to levying taxes or raising armies.

 

Nekraa , Valette-Serafina ... apologies, I missed you replying to me eariler.

It is, impossible, within bounds of Fate. Same deal as with defeating Primordials.

If you seek me to cite you something along:"Dev said it can be done." then no, I do not have proof. But if you are willing to listen I will gladly cite you the chain of logic that leads to such conclusion:
-Exaltation gives humans Normal (Dragon-Blooded), Easy(Celestial) or Kid-Gloves with Tutorial(Solaroids) "game" mode. While heroic mortals are defaulting on Hard mode.
-Unshaped are related to Primordials. If less metaphorically mighty.
It's in Graceful Wicked Masques book.
-Ishavara Raksha are ALMOST like Primordials. Certainly on par with "Unconquered" Sun. Look for the examples of Unshaped named Fomorian Night and Prince Lashee Morning Star.
It is in Unconquered Sun's chapter of that book about Incarnae.
-Humans can become Raksha.
Again it is in Graceful Wicked Masques.
-Pure Chaos can give rise to things on par with Primordial. Proto-Shinmaic Vortex is a embryo universe, savvy?
It's in the book about Solar artifacts.

Thus the conclusion that Unshaped Ishavara can become Primordial. It merely takes an impossible task.

No. I play it from time to time. The 2ed, that is.

Creation-bound Raksha hate it. It is a humiliation that forces them to be semi-symbiotic with a thing that wants them erased from existing.

And Wyld is infinite. Does Creation? Thus claiming that Creation is in the center is ... dubious at best.

There is also Zen Mu. There is also Creation-equivalent made by Primordial jealous of the group who made Creation. And while the Unconquered Sun blew up the second with Echnaton Lock, it proves that Creation is nothing unique in the infinity of the Wyld.

With ass-pulled double miracle of Raksha betraying their leader and Her Redness managing to activate Realm Defense Grid.

Yes. It happens with just natural hazards of the Wyld.

Lets agree to disagree on the latter. The first? Cite your evidence please.

As for overcoming Perfect Defenses. I know of two ways:
Death at the Roots, that not-cute Moonsilver Grimcleaver with enough successes on activation it can shatter Charm/Magic based defense. For example insta-gib Unconquered Sun.
And there is also "Break, even if invincible, break!" Charm in Lunar Strength tree at Essence 8-10 I believe. It Luna's splat or in DoFA supplement.

Yozi aren't the same as Primordials. They are limited. So far they only can pass some notes 5 days back in time.

We dunno about the "passage of time". It can go wonky in Creation proper as various incidents proven. In Pure Chaos all bets are off. At least in my opinion.
Existence of Creation ... since when a forcibly stabilized world within the infinite premises of the Wyld is unique or something special?!

My dude learned Thaumaturgy as a backup to designing spells and charms relying heavily on these things. Sadly that game ended before I finished my research into empowering humans past 3 Essence without Elementalization, Demonization or Deification.

And Thaumaturgical Artifacts are still ones! Just fragile as heck thus why I mostly used them as equivalent of D&D potions. Or bombs, let's not forget the sacred mysteries of dakka!

Ayup. And it had significiant benefits when teams of Thaumaturges were working together! Heck, I once designed Sorcery that worked on Thaumaturgy almost like the Dragon-Blooded "let's gang up and cooperate like one body, doods!"

But now it's imposibru.

It was very useful. Low entry requirements. Manageable costs. Plenthora of minor effects that are often stackable to impressive level. Of course when dealing with smaller stuff. Against Exalts it was for naught. But against Exalts you use Speshul Snowflake stuff anyway.

Till today I remember re-enacting scenes from "300" against a Nameless Hordes swarm of critters with a well prepared and equipped human army. Without Thaumaturgy my Twilight would die then. Along the whole country before reinforcements arrive. Not to mention that Realm dudes would attack me first, instead of monsters!

Since when gods have to reply to Thaumaturge's requests and sacrifices?! You seem to believe that bored Elemental will react the same to Thaumaturge begging and Exalt punching him to do stuff.

It isn't very reliable if it requires something on par of Autochton's: "Only Five Mortals that are my special little snowflakes can make an Alchemical. Deal with it, Solar."

And making Thaumaturgy from "Knowledge is power, leads to benefits if you know how to influence natural laws." to:"Even gods don't understand why that shit happens. But they feel compelled to do this or that because that bald dude painted his ass blue and was doing synchronic dance with three monkeys."

It makes Thaumaturgy less reliable and useful than Sorcery. Why learn Thaumaturgy when Sorcerers can be more reliably trained and their spells can work the same, or BETTER?
You risk your life, true. But when you learn Sorcery, you can laugh louder on Thaumaturges. Who firstly need a special attiude. Secondly need a tutor. Or literal miracle, that even gods don't have the fuzziest idea how, to happen.
And gain so much less than you for partly price of risking life, soul and limb.

Finding people capable of learning, when it can be basically attributed to "try your luck, bub!" is what is bothersome here.

 

All this talk of human becoming Primordials nows gets me thinking of has there ever been a M:TA and M:TAW vs Exalted versus?

So nothing has changed at all. I see. We still seeing M20 as the core of the Old World of Darkness.

 

The issue is that one setting must dominate the other.

Given that both versions of Mage lack the Shaping keyword, their fans would say that Mage magic doesn't count as Shaping.

Given that the Exalted killed beings who spanned worlds and defined reality, Exalted fans would point out that lacking the keyword doesn't make it not Shaping.

Then a Mage fan would throw a hissy fit about not being able to violate the Primacy of Defense, it would devolve into a verbal slap fight, and no one would be happy.

They fucking aren't. Seriously, did you read the part you're pointing Nekraa to?

And everything outside creation is..?

Fanon, or a ravenous monster that exists in its current form because that's the Narrative spun by Creation. My question was rhetorical.

Is Creation, and yes. Vertically.

Explicit canon. There is only one static location in the universe: Creation. Everything else is therefore a certain distance from Creation.

Creation is the constant frame of reference. The centre. The nail in the wyld, that enforces certain rules.

Wonky, but still linear. It flows in one way, and thus so does time across all of the wyld.

Since, once again, the creation of Creation. Creation is self-reinforcing. The petty fifes of the fair folk mimic it.

...Why am I even fucking bothering. You don't know anything about what you're talking about.

 

*staring out a thousand yards away*

There have been. There have been.

 

I think I just triggered a little upon reading this.

pls staph no vs debate

OTOH, there has been dev talk about an Exalted x WoD crossover book, but not a peep of that since a couple of years at least AFAIK?

 

Well Mage the Ascension could just use their hax powers to pull all sorts of crap that will cause the Exalt to deplete his motes and protections and then dies. For example, Void Engineers could spam thousands of bullets and bombs until the exalt's motes run out. Where did all the bombs and bullets come from you say? Matter sphere.

But yeah, it was just a question if such debates have taken place. Lets not have an actual debate here.

Link please.

sorry.

Agreed

How the hell would that work ?

 

Enviromental hazard defences are scenelong.

See? This is where it goes. The mechanics are not compatible.

 

IIRC They stopped talking about that at about the same time they stopped talking about the Pony Exploitation Exalted setting.

 

Wouldn't that only work for bombs and not the bullets or lasers?


Also, we do have the Akashic brotherhood and they have Kung fu too.

So

Indeed. I love Exalted vs debates. Such rage that is generated.

What?

 

Each individual bullet/laser/sword/Any kind of projectile ≠ One attack.

Not Exalted kung fu.

...That's detestable.

 

Explain. Genuinely curious.

I mean isn't one of the tactics against the Exalted is to attack them with an army that hits them with everything like arrows and so on.

Well Exalts do have it that they are better at everything then everyone else. IIRC, the Exalted victory against the Primordials wasn't easy. They did die a lot before they finally won.

I kinda wanna see an sphere 9 akashic brotherhood go kungfu fighting against an Exalt. The sheer kungfu

Why? No one is getting hurt and seeing them all rage cause of Perfect defense and then throwing more and more imaginary biggatons only for them to met the perfect defense which causes the rage to grow is hilarious.

 

Agree. I read them for entertainment. Participate sometimes if someone posts info that I see as wrong but don't really care who wins.

Still yeah, I'm not vs debating here guys. Just curious about how mage stuff interacts with Exalted and if Mages can fight Exalted.