Iberian Feudal Quest

[fitzgerald]

Because there's no freaking way QQ isn't about to make Luc a womanizer.

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Heh, there's a womanizer and then there's hoping into and out of every single bed.


Just be aware that Luc doesn't have Contraceptives and thus there are consequences.

Not to mention that older gentlemen married to young bored wives also have their own goon squads to make their complaints

 

[inverted_helix]

and feel free to suggest improved versions s of it inverted helix

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Not sure if you just meant wording improvements or actual improvements so I'll give both:

(Wording improvement) Nymphs Share: Potential and current
lovers will find sharing Luc less objectionable and be less prone to jealousy towards or quarreling with his other lovers.
(Improvement to the ability) Additionally Luc has the sexual stamina to satisfy any number of women, bolstered in the act by his heritage despite his normally low Body, and it is more pleasurable and satisfying to all parties involved.

The wording improvement is essentially what the original meant with less obvious loopholes. (The most horrible loophole before was specifying "lovers" which I was really head banging over, since it meant that you'd need to do the deed before the effect applied.) Anyone else see any wording issues which clarify the meaning without improving the ability? (Arguably saying it makes them less prone to jealousy or quarreling was improving it but it's really just listing some possible objections.)

Notably this ability in general isn't as strong as people are thinking I expect because it just means the girls are less prone to causing issues. Much of the issue with having multiple lovers is still their relatives and society.

The second modification is an actual improvement to the ability, but still sensible. Our weak body might cause issues with satisfying multiple lovers that a real Nymph would never have. The satisfaction bit might be infringing on the Seduction skill, but Seduction is a much broader category, while this would essentially be a bonus to sexual pleasure only.

Because there's no freaking way QQ isn't about to make Luc a womanizer.

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This is a bit more ambitious than just being a womanizer, since you can go from woman to woman without this sort of ability in play, this is more to make the harem ending more easily achievable.

Just be aware that Luc doesn't have Contraceptives and thus there are consequences.

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This line just makes me want to develop Water/Force based contraception early. I can see ways each of those could manage it. Plus you said our high Soul score relative to our magic scores gives us a bonus to developing spells with magic, and our high Soul score means we can have more abstract associations with the element.

I figure a Water contraception spell would simply remove the Life from sperm (seed in character) since that's an easy association.

A Force contraceptive spell would be a bit harder to manage without causing blue ball issues but an idea that comes to mind is negating the movement of the sperm. It wouldn't be able to fertilize the egg that way. Now without proper understanding of the process that seems unreasonable, but iirc the common idea of reproduction in medieval Europe was that the man planted a seed in the woman's body, so making that seed not take root should be a reasonable idea.

 

[Kelenas]

Eh, that's part of the fun.

Though I'm honestly not really sure why people like Arete so much. To be honest, it seems a bit pointless; if we're going to raise a skill a lot, chances are good that we'll want the corresponding attribute to be as high as possible as well, undermining the use of that ability. Seems far better to go and pick something that gives us an ability we can't get by just planning ahead with our training/XP-expenditures a bit.

 

[inverted_helix]

Eh, that's part of the fun.

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Not sure what part you meant this to apply to.

Though I'm honestly not really sure why people like Arete so much. To be honest, it seems a bit pointless; if we're going to raise a skill a lot, chances are good that we'll want the corresponding attribute to be as high as possible as well, undermining the use of that ability. Seems far better to go and pick something that gives us an ability we can't get by just planning ahead with our training/XP-expenditures a bit.

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In this game system Attributes are mostly determined on character creation. You can train up Skills through grinding training actions, but you cannot train Attributes.

Increasing attributes only really occurs through certain magic (which we mostly don't have access to), and sometimes through major/epic quests.

People are taking Arete because of that. Though I suppose you might have meant to only take skills where our attributes are good already, which is reasonable to a degree, but there's several Mind based skills that I figure are quite valuable and which we'd be limited to 2 in.

Though admittedly training times are quite high as it is so Arete will be of limited short term use as it is and I might be swayed towards Bridge. Or possibly one of my other two approved writeins for their major combat bonuses.

 

[BFldyq]

Not sure what part you meant this to apply to.

In this game system Attributes are mostly determined on character creation. You can train up Skills through grinding training actions, but you cannot train attributes.

Increasing attributes only really occurs through certain magic (which we mostly don't have access to), and sometimes through major/epic quests.

People are taking Arete because of that. Though I suppose you might have meant to only take skills where our attributes are good already, which is reasonable to a degree, but there's several Mind based skills that I figure are quite valuable and which we'd be limited to 2 in.

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It also let's you break the soft-cap of 5 with regards to skills.

 

[inverted_helix]

It also let's you break the soft-cap of 5 with regards to skills.

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Yeah. Normal humans are capped at 5 in skills. This would let us break that human limitation.

However to go from rank 5 to rank 6 would take 36 training actions. As we get only 24 actions a year (and this in a game with monthly turns) it would be rather ridiculous to grind up to rank 6 in a skill anyways since we're never going to be allowed to tunnel on a skill exclusively for that long.

Though I do find it curious that we're getting 2 actions a turn here instead of 3 like the original Feudal. It might be because of our low Body score, but I find that unlikely given it was never mentioned that actions would be based on that (otherwise we'd almost certainly have had 4-5 Body in our build).

(Granted earlier when I opposed Order 3 I said we didn't get 9 actions a turn thinking we'd be getting 3, but didn't realize it was a yearly (per 12 turns) action cost. Though overall it was still prohibitively expensive.)

 

[Adyen]

We're also going to have to be stupidly proactive to get onto the national scene due to the lack of any kinds of 'in' for it, so spending a year+ just training is not going to help make us known for anything other than a shut-in.

Don't forget - while the current build is optimized for Luc to have a lot of time to grow, it isn't optimized for anything larger than owning his personal fief. Luc lack fame, allies, opportunities (ie lures or 'ins') AND abilities to become anyone important, so a lot of effort has to be done on diplomacy and outside the lands he controls.

Ung. I hate it when things like that is based on random chance... Especially in things that actually has stats.

 

[fitzgerald]

We're also going to have to be stupidly proactive to get onto the national scene due to the lack of any kinds of 'in' for it, so spending a year+ just training is not going to help make us known for anything other than a shut-in.
Ung. I hate it when things like that is based on random chance... Especially in things that actually has stats.

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Adyen Luc has a big potential in: Sorcery

As for random chance, eh I did lay out a couple of easy "In" routes and opportunities to acquire more will be available

Flip-side is that if Luc spends a year or two prepping for adventures he could easily go adventuring

 

[Walkir]

...learning more skills in events than in a single training action if the old feudal quest is anything to go by.

 

[inverted_helix]

Don't forget - while the current build is optimized for Luc to have a lot of time to grow, it isn't optimized for anything larger than owning his personal fief. Luc lack fame, allies, opportunities (ie lures or 'ins') AND abilities to become anyone important, so a lot of effort has to be done on diplomacy and outside the lands he controls.

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We have a Soul 5. That makes our potential for nation level Magic if we grind it up.

Ping

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Did you have any comment on my potential modifications to Nymphs Share; or on the ideas of producing a contraception spell?

 

[Adyen]

Yes, but that's all potential. Obviously saying that we have the potential to become anything is kinda silly, but we need to be able to determine how much time spent growing this ability is worth it over other things that we can/have to do.

Which was kinda the point of saying spending 36 actions to advance an ability might eat into the times we could be spent 'advertising' Luk.

 

[inverted_helix]

Yes, but that's all potential. Obviously saying that we have the potential to become anything is kinda silly, but we need to be able to determine how much time spent growing this ability is worth it over other things that we can/have to do.

Which was kinda the point of saying spending 36 actions to advance an ability might eat into the times we could be spent 'advertising' Luk.

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I'm a bit unsure where you're actually going with this argument.

I don't really think Arete valuable for getting a 6 in a skill, honestly I think that's way too long to spend grinding on training. What I want Arete for is the ability to get 3s in Mind based skills that will be useful for running a fief since we only took 2 points in Mind.

Also the whole issue I had with Order 3 was it denied us time to properly prepare because it put us on the national scene immediately. We can take a few years if we want building up various skills to a level where we can make a good impression before really coming on to the scene. We're background right now that people won't really notice, so there's not much negative about a while spent skilling up. We have time. We can make our national impact later when we're ready.

I mean ideally I wanted an Mind 5, Admin 5 retainer so that we could put them in charge of the fief and go run around doing quests to really grind up our skills. I would really like to go off to Egypt to carve out a kingdom in the wars there, but if we wanted to stay in Iberia it's not too bad not having an administrator.

 

[Adyen]

Honestly, my argument FOR Order 3 is that we'd grind up our skills relating to administration and leadership while earning prestige and how to be on the national scene during those 9 actions yearly. It's more efficient to be on the scene training and capable of directing resources of the Order as opposed to just training ourselves. We're not likely to meet the types of people who can teach us those things by ourselves without spending large amounts of money or owing other people something.

While I don't fault anyone for not picking it if they wished to grind other types of skills (ie magic or adventuring type abilities - ie personal strength), I will say that I am rather annoyed at people who wanted a leadership type role for not picking Order 3 because that would have been like hitting 2 birds with 1 stone.

 

[inverted_helix]

Honestly, my argument FOR Order 3 is that we'd grind up our skills relating to administration and leadership while earning prestige and how to be on the national scene during those 9 actions yearly. It's more efficient to be on the scene training and capable of directing resources of the Order as opposed to just training ourselves. We're not likely to meet the types of people who can teach us those things by ourselves without spending large amounts of money or owing other people something.

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Except you make a fool of yourself early and then have to deal with that lingering bad reputation for ages.

It's easy to make an initial entry into the larger scene with no reputation at all. A negative reputation can be impossible to ever really put behind you though. There's a reason first impressions are considered so important.

Also I just don't see those 9 actions as contributing nearly as much to useful skill training as you expect. They'd be actions meant to benefit the Church, not us.

 

[Adyen]

Except you make a fool of yourself early and then have to deal with that lingering bad reputation for ages.

It's easy to make an initial entry into the larger scene with no reputation at all. A negative reputation can be impossible to ever really put behind you though. There's a reason first impressions are considered so important.

Also I just don't see those 9 actions as contributing nearly as much to useful skill training as you expect. They'd be actions meant to benefit the Church, not us.

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We had a diplo minimum of 4, which was stated to be enough to be 'professional'.

The ONLY way we would have 'fucked up' would have been if we had to lead personally, and if it came to that we could have begged that off with money. Or asked for a mentor.

The resources we would have gained (manpower and connections) are more than equivalent to the price we have to pay for it (time, mainly).

 

[inverted_helix]

The ONLY way we would have 'fucked up' would have been if we had to lead personally, and if it came to that we could have begged that off with money. Or asked for a mentor.

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you are often found leading the Order in battle

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That was one of the core points of Order 3 was being their leader in battle, which we were totally incompetent for. It's not something that would be occasional. The whole position was as a military leader. Having to pay off all the actions each year would have taken 3/4 of the profit from the salt mine you wanted.

 

[Adyen]

That was one of the core points of Order 3 was being their leader in battle, which we were totally incompetent for. It's not something that would be occasional. The whole position was as a military leader. Having to pay off all the actions each year would have taken 3/4 of the profit from the salt mine you wanted.

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And yet, we've been doing that often BEFORE character creation and we still hold the position.

Unless we're retroactively changing it so that we always sucked at it and gain a penalty just for taking Order 3, I somehow doubt your fears would be confirmed.

 

[inverted_helix]

And yet, we've been doing that often BEFORE character creation and we still hold the position.

Unless we're retroactively changing it so that we always sucked at it and gain a penalty just for taking Order 3, I somehow doubt your fears would be confirmed.

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Feudalism is not known for being an overly meritocratic system. You can entirely end up with a person in a position they're completely unqualified for due to their birth.

If it gave skills it would indicate that. Like Mundane background gave skill points and indicated such.

 

[Adyen]

Your post doesn't actually mean anything other than the fact that Feudalism uses a system of merit based on birth.

 

[inverted_helix]

Your post doesn't actually mean anything other than the fact that Feudalism uses a system of merit based on birth.

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It means that we entirely could have just sucked at it and still been in the position of Order 3 just based on birth.

And yet, we've been doing that often BEFORE character creation and we still hold the position.

Unless we're retroactively changing it so that we always sucked at it and gain a penalty just for taking Order 3, I somehow doubt your fears would be confirmed.

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If it was going to give us skill bonuses to make us decent at it they would have been listed with the trait just like skill bonuses under Mundane were.

 

[Adyen]

It means that we entirely could have just sucked at it and still been in the position of Order 3 just based on birth.

If it was going to give us skill bonuses to make us decent at it they would have been listed with the trait just like skill bonuses under Mundane were.

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Or, the Order could be filled with competent people who recognize that we don't have the knowledge to lead personally and thus send us to observe more senior members to learn how to lead.

Look, we can argue this over and over again and while I'm pretty sure I can eventually convince you that an advantage is going to be an advantage and not a disadvantage in disguise (like you thought of the salt mine vs flat money), but the opportunity is gone so let's not continue this. Ok?

 

[fitzgerald]

It seems Arete and Nymphs Share have won

as a reward have a

 

[inverted_helix]

like you thought of the salt mine vs flat money

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I never thought that at all.

I said that the flat money would be at least worth one third of one year of the salt mine, and that based on this the cost of Order 3 would eat much of the profit from the salt mine if we took Order 3. While you believed the salt mine would provide so much money that paying for Order 3 would be trivial. As it turns out the flat money is worth 5/6 of one year of the salt mine and therefore I was totally right.

Or, the Order could be filled with competent people who recognize that we don't have the knowledge to lead personally and thus send us to observe more senior members to learn how to lead.

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Or those competent people recognize we don't have the ability to lead and do their best to sideline us and prevent us from doing any more damage while ensuring we don't get any further advancement.

 

[Adyen]

900 is 5/6 of an average of 1200.
Ok. On the phone, so I'm not even going to even try.

 

[Adyen]

Just going to repost this.

To clarify for both [user]inverted_helix[/user] & [user]Adyen[/user]


~ If Mine [3] Gets picked, Luc will own the salt mine. Expect revenue ranging from 200-400 silver a quarter; (derived from 1 +1d3 *100). On average 1200 silver should be generated over a year plus plenty of merchant activity

Royse Darius motivations if Salt Mine is picked come down to a few known & few unknown factors 1) The Crown paid off the debts the mine secured several years ago 2) Fallout from the dragon has substantially reduced the Privy Purses obligations 3) A new Royal silver mine has recently started producing from a very rich vein:


~ To quote myself: Order of the Daughter [3] One of the Orders leading Lights (9 Actions or 900 SP a year) you are often found leading the Order in battle, off it, and more often than not in Court as an aide to the General.

General of the Order of Daughter (commands)----> his aides / regional lieutenants aka Luc. The game will be heavily influenced by this choice as Luc's main venue into Brajar's politics. Its very much a role the attribute Charm 4 will come into play with; remember Luc is a Sorcerer, a potent one at that, it brings a lot to the table with plenty of interest to go with it.


None of the options are traps, nor do you need to play the paranoid game of "people are going to crush us"; these are more 'What plot hooks do the players want'
Luc (without mentioning magic) is a skilled diplomat and average noble. Wanting to stand out beyond the norm will take effort but Luc could literally coast through life with his current skill set.

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[inverted_helix]

900 is 5/6 of an average of 1200.
Ok. On the phone, so I'm not even going to even try.

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Flat money is 1000. 1000/1200 = 5(200)/6(200) = 5/6
Your ability to read sucks.

Just going to repost this.

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And of course the GM has to say that none of the options are traps. Otherwise players would be less likely to fall for the traps. Traps work far better when the victim isn't expecting them.

 

[Adyen]

Flat money is 1000. 1000/1200 = 5(200)/6(200) = 5/6
Your ability to read sucks.

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Huh. You're right.

Guess what? Your point about the mine is still wrong.

Edit: and very likely the Order too, if the GM's post is anything to go by.

 

[inverted_helix]

Guess what? Your point about the mine is still wrong.

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The mine would produce on average 1200. Order 3 would cost 900. 900/1200 = 3(300)/4(300) = 3/4 of the mine's profit would go to paying for Order 3. By all rational definitions "most" implies at minimum a plurality but more typically a majority. 3/4 is greater than 1/2, it is a strict majority, a supermajority even therefore the word "most" applies.

Most of the mine's profit would go towards paying for Order 3. Learn to do math, and to read.

 

[Adyen]

Let's compare that to having a flat gold.

At the first year, the flat gold would be left with 100, and none of the actions are spent.

With the mine, 400 is left and no actions are spent.

On the second year, there is no surplus left over and 8 actions has to be spent or 800 gold found somewhere else.

With the mine, not only do we not have to spend any actions, we've made a total of 800 gold from the mine.

On the third year, we would have to spend 17 actions or 1700 gold (in any mix) from the flat gold.

While with the mine, we've made 1200, which if you didn't know is more than 1000, and still didn't have to spend action points I'd we didn't want to.

Now that I even did the math for you, would you not say that Order 3, and this is a choice without any additional strings attached, is better with Mine 3 over your choice of flat money?

 

[inverted_helix]

Now that I even did the math for you, would you not say that Order 3, and this is a choice without any additional strings attached, is better with Mine 3 over your choice of flat money?

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There was never any claim that flat gold was better than mine 3. The claim was always that Order 3 would soak up most of the money from the mine and that taking Order 3 was a bad idea. The flat money was used to approximate the value that the mines would give since that calculation was done before WoG on how much money the mines would give.

The fact that most of your profit from the mine ends up going to Order 3 was the point. Which your own math demonstrates.

There's also the issue that flat money was 1 point while salt mine is 3 points. Which means your math on when the 3 point item surpasses the one point is rather pointless since it merely demonstrates that 3 points is better than 1. A more relevant measure would be flat gold + mine 2 vs mine 3. Ultimately it's still not a very relevant measure though since most people took Mundane 2 (This was actually the only unanimous choice.) wanting those extra skill points, and the flat gold was just something they took as a prerequisite.