(Partially) fixing the tag system

[asdfghjklpoiu]

Dunno if it's been discussed yet, but I would really like authors to be able to set the tags they attach to their work with two different "priority levels"; call them "primary" and "content" or something.

Reasoning:

Particularly if there are many tags, it's often difficult to tell what a story is about. For example, let's say I'm interested in finding stories where a specific kink, eg <Hand-Holding>, is the "main thing" in the story. Right now, if I search this, I will get all stories that are tagged with this, but that doesn't tell me if <Hand-Holding> is the major kink which this story was written around or if it's just something that happens in paragraph 4 of chapter 21. I've seen some authors indicate this through the ordering of how they list the tags, but some sort of system here would be fantastic.

 

[LurkingInTheDeceit]

So, the 'replying to all useful feedback' idea was nice in theory, but, um, practically unmanageable. So I'm gonna stop quoting future leads, and put them in a master list I've added to the OP, and just do a general reply to topics with lots of posts.

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I did some tests to see how tag moderation works, and so can clarify my idea of how I'm going to do things. Unlike the system @Facepalmist explained SB has, we do not have parent/child groups, or an option for automatic refusal at creation of previously merged tags. What we do have is the ability to merge (converting all selected tags on the forum into a designated tag), and the Synonym/Canonisation systems.

I'm going to use a combination of these. For all duplicates, I'm going to merge, so all existing threads have the standardised Canon Tag. Then, to prevent having to play wack-a-mole in the future, I'm going to independently recreate those incorrect tags, and make them Synonyms of the new Canon tag. So, it'll be a one-time clear out, and, when people inevitably start filling up their threads with duplicates again, it's still fixed on the backend, so we don't have to monitor an approval process.

Obviously, people won't stop making new varieties of identical tags, which we'll have to fix, but that's less onerous than retreading old ground.

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Re: Genderbending. I'll separate them into 'genderbending' and 'genderbent'.

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Re: self-insert/oc inserts. My new proposed merges are these:

{kind of a self insert - kind of a self inser - kind off self insert - self insert (I guess?) - self-insert-kinda - sorta self insert - self(?) insert - semi si - semi-si - si is kinda oc - si sorta - si? - sort of si - sorta si thing} partial-self insert

{non self insert - insert not self - non-self insert}
character insert

{self insert oc - oc/si - oc-si - si oc - si-oc - si/oc - si is an oc - si is basically an oc - si is not an si} oc insert

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Separated to distinguish between inserts based on the author, existing characters being inserted, and original characters being inserted. I unfortunately can't merge the second bunch into 'existing character insert', as I'm sure people are using those tags for OCs as well, so it still needs to make sense in those cases.

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Re: AU. I'm inclined to just, merge any duplicates, so every fandom has [Fandom] and [Fandom AU], but not merging those two tags.

I haven't really found the reasons given for why 'non-canon' shouldn't also be merged into the 'alternate universe' tag convincing tbh. I'll probably keep them separate anyway, just because some people seem to see a difference, even though I don't really get it.

Also, hmm. While I'm generally disinclined towards abbreviating, unless anyone raises a possible point of confusion, I probably will just make it 'AU' rather than 'alternate universe'.

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Re: non-con/rape. I'll keep them separate, but gather more duplicates for each.

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Re: The design of the tagging system. A lot of your suggestions may have merit, but I have no access to the real backend, and wouldn't be able to code anything if I did. I'm doing what I can using the tools I actually have available to me, hence this thread.

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It's only used for one fic, but "heroaca" should be added too.

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Will add.

Your other standardised tags used "protagonist" rather than "MC".

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I'll probably change that to 'harem member protagonist'.

Harem vs Harems, pick one

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Unless anyone objects, probably harem.

+laughs at only two posters commenting about harem tags+
Ah, QQ.

But I still gotta ask, why differentiate harem eventually, harem posible, harem likely?

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There's distinctions in meaning.

And worm (parahumans) too. Two pages of results without general worm tag.
People looove to invent new names for fiction, lol. Though this one was probably inspired by AO3 Parahumans Series.

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(Parahumans) is good for disambiguation, and I wish more people used it. As I recall, Worm is published on Parahumans website, and has a sequel Ward, probably also published there.

Worm* and Ward are also single word titles and I could see them used as or in content tags in the future. And while it is less problematic in tag filtering, overly generic terms are too vague to search properly, as I have learned when looking for erotic video games that really could use far more unique titles.

Probably cannot get perfect here without at least ability to explicitly designate tags as fandom though.

*There is a story on DeviantArt that refers to a woman in full body bondage as 'worm'.

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This seems reasonable? To make the Canon tag 'worm (parahumans)'. Any objections aside from it being longer?

Which raises the interesting question of whether to use the jp or en words for the tags

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That's probably case by case tbh, depending on each versions' popularity, and whether the translation is controversial.

Please, I beg. Converge all the worm tags together like we're in Dead Space trying to make a Brethren Moon.

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Here are direct synonyms, 1 to 1 in meaning, pretty much:
{'worm', 'worm (parahumans)'}
{'worm au', 'worm au obviously'}
{'worm cyoa', 'worm cyoa inspired', 'worm cyoa v1', 'worm cyoa v17'}

I don't think there's a need to distinguish the version of cyoa in search results.

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Will add more worm duplicates, though I won't merge all the different worm cyoa tags.

IMHO some of the smaller fate subverses can be rolled into the main fate tag.

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That there's a smaller number of fics using a tag doesn't mean it should be merged into a more popular related tag. Basically the opposite, in that someone wanting to find that less popular tag would be pretty negatively impacted by it.

Minor nitpick/correction, you borked one of your quote tags (funnily, it was quoting me, lol). It's missing the opening square bracket.

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Fixed.

On this part, I believe it would be better to keep them as is. Because while grammar is a thing, I believe the more important issue here is practically:
A user doing a Tag search for (or against) Harem type tags will always start by typing "harem".
If the tags are worded in the more grammatically correct way "XxXxX Harem", then the user will not see them unless they specifically search for these tags. Which means they'll have to know these tags exist in the first place.
Whereas if the tags are kept worded as "Harem XxXxX" then the search engine will suggest this list of tags to the user.

In general, I feel this approach of "<general idea> + <specific niche or conditional modifier>" format should be kept in mind for most tags with multiple words.

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Actually, this isn't correct. The search engine autosuggest will suggest any tag with the typed-in text within it; you can test this easily by typing "fgo" into the filter or the tag search and noting that "extra fgo", "I blame jack the ripper (fgo)" and "post fgo au timeline" are all in the suggested list.

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I tested this theory and it does not appear to be true. The search will suggest tags that contain the term you typed, even if that is in the middle or end of the tag. This can be seen easily by typing "obvious" in the tag field, or some other term where there are few or no tags starting with the term. "redo" is another good term to demonstrate this.

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I guess the reversal stands.

Maybe I'm just slow, but is there a list of existing tags somewhere on the site? Or when I'm posting a story and typing tags by their first letters, does the system automatically suggest options from existing tags?
Let's say I want to post a story; I'll need to come up with tags. Not only do I have to choose the most common synonym, but there's also a chance I might make a typo. I've definitely seen tags with typos before.

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There will be such a list, once I start filling up the Suggested Tags threads (1, 2). The system does auto-fill when you try to type a tag from the existing tags too, though I'd guess that's sorted through some combination of popularity and relevance.

 

[SwiftRosenthal]

Ideally, MGE would have two tags, one for fics that at least give lip service to the canon material's tone, and one for the grimdark western fanon.

But even on QQ, even in the series's ideas thread which IIRC was created specifically to try to create some separation and cut down on this, the latter's advocates are still much louder and more insistent than the former. So I doubt that split would actually work.

 

[Vasstago]

This seems reasonable? To make the Canon tag 'worm (parahumans)'. Any objections aside from it being longer?

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It is better. And if any fandom has the same or similar issue it should follow that example. Searching for "worm" when you don't know about the fandom in question is just confusing the "worm parahumans" clears a lot for people that just don't know about the fandom. By thinking like that it also stands to case to separate the tags for different kind of media even if is the same setting like ASOIAF and GoT, HotD and KotSK. In the case of ASOIAF I think might be mostly because GoT is just more famous. I am still of the opinion that they should be merged, but consistency in tagging system is better overall, specially in the logic underneath of way was done that way.

 

[LurkingInTheDeceit]

This seems reasonable? To make the Canon tag 'worm (parahumans)'. Any objections aside from it being longer?

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I guess this won't actually solve the problem zup mentioned, with 'worm' possibly referring to different things, as it'd still need to be a Synonym, and thus all searches for 'worm' will get 'worm (parahumans)' in the results. Given the limited benefit, shorter might be better here actually. *wishy washy*

 

[Borland30]

every fandom has [Fandom] and [Fandom AU], but not merging those two tags.

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But they will be Synonyms, right? So there would be no need to search fics with Fandom and Fandom AU tags separately?

This seems reasonable? To make the Canon tag 'worm (parahumans)'. Any objections aside from it being longer?

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It's just seems really unnecessary. Adding (parahumans) serve no purpose. Everyone knows Worm as just Worm, and fics in the Worm, shall we say, extended universe (Ward) could be counted on fingers six years after it's ending.

 

[LurkingInTheDeceit]

But they will be Synonyms, right? So there would be no need to search fics with Fandom and Fandom AU tags separately?

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Probably not Synonyms, as they have distinct meanings. It's inconvenient if a user wants to find (or exclude) both, but some people might want to find (or exclude) one or the other.

 

[GatoArc]

Probably not Synonyms, as they have distinct meanings. It's inconvenient if a user wants to find (or exclude) both, but some people might want to find (or exclude) one or the other.

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Maybe searching for let's say the Pokemon tag, gets you Pokemon AU results, but searching the Pokemon AU tag does not get you normal Pokemon results.

 

[LurkingInTheDeceit]

Maybe searching for let's say the Pokemon tag, gets you Pokemon AU results, but searching the Pokemon AU tag does not get you normal Pokemon results.

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Not possible with current tools.

I probably will have another look through the Canon tags I've got, and see if any can be made Synonyms, though. 'partial-self insert' and 'self-insert' is one that immediately jumps out to me.

 

[Shitypawriter]

On the Waifu Catalog I thing 3 tags are needed

Waifu Catalog - Original Swift version No company fucking.

Waifu Catalog Inspired - less popular takes or things like Ideas-guy's fic that has it in the background.

Waifu Catalog(Slutlife) - The Cherio version with the Company Fucks Everyone Tag usually or just make that the tag.

Yea I think Worm(Parahumans) is the Way to go and have that Include Ward because it is just the sequel.

Seems like something to just do in general for one word titles like if I see the tag Overlord is it talking about the video game or the light novel series? Seems like a good idea to have that as a standard even if the tags take more space not like people here are shy about putting what are basically tags in the tittle.

How should Comics be handled because those are notoriously messy? Should there be just general Tags like DC Comics, Marvel Comics? Or specific ones Like Marvel Cinematic Universe, Dc New 52, DC Animated Continuity ect, and for how many continuities? Things like New 52 and Marvel's Ultimate universes are in the same cosmology but different universes If i understand it correctly so those feel like they should be different.

Speaking of this haven't read the whole thread so Don't know if this was settled but acronyms seem like an obvious no asides from people usually knowing shows from you know their names you don't recommend Lord of the rings as Lotr irl there is no way to prevent overlapping tags sure Unique ones like Asoiaf will probably stay unique but as said before Hotd can mean 2 very different shows.

For cannon tags I'd say 5

Cannon compliant - follows cannon could have taken place off screen.

Cannon Divergent - Follows cannon up till an event like a character makes a different choice the SI wakes up, character has differnt power ect.

Minor Au - Mostly follows cannon lore but with mostly background changes to where the cannon story could still take place think the age of the Stark children.

Alternate Universe - Self explanatory.

Major Au - Cannon is a suggestion Author does whatever the fuck they want.

 

[Grosstoad]

So, harem probable, harem likely, harem eventually, are all harem tags whose distinction is just how firm the author's plan is (or voters, if it is a Quest).

Harem probable: The setting I wrote in/the circumstances I wrote about is conducive for a harem to form, but I have no plans to actually do so.

Harem likely: Whatever setting or circumstances, there are at least two partners I am thinking of pairing with the character, at the same time.

Harem eventually: Gonna write a harem.

EDIT: Now that I think about it some more, in other less degen sites, these might be compiled into the harem tag, but we are in QQ.

Accuracy in kink tag is important, see the couple of suggestion about types of non-con and incest.

 

[cosoco]

What we do have is the ability to merge (converting all selected tags on the forum into a designated tag), and the Synonym/Canonisation systems.

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BTW, is the process for merging tags reversible? Hypothetically, if one of these merges turns out to be bad, is it possible to undo it, or would the information about which thread was tagged with Tag A or Tag B be lost?

(I'm not suggesting that you haven't done your homework. You've clearly put a huge amount of thought into each of these merges.)

 

[GatoArc]

Not possible with current tools.

I probably will have another look through the Canon tags I've got, and see if any can be made Synonyms, though. 'partial-self insert' and 'self-insert' is one that immediately jumps out to me.

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While taking a shower I thought about how to streamline all of this, how about just making tags that include a genre or something else split into 2 different tags? So If you added "Pokemon AU" it would instead split to Pokemon tag and AU tag. That way you don't have to do all this manual work right now or in the future.

If splitting them automatically isn't something feasible, you could just make a header forum thread about the change, announcing that tags that include genres will just default to the genre/fandom instead, and you need to include the other manually. I.E you make a Pokemon - AU tag, it detects "AU" and it defaults to AU. Then you would need to add Pokemon by itself.

 

[EmperorSIX]

adding to this, is there a place on the site where you can look at all the tags sorted by popularity or something? seems the only way you can search using a tag right now is if you know a tag exists.

EDIT: their should be a way you can browse all tags on the site, either as a list, or something else. more than anything else, that would make this a lot more navigable. from there, just make it so that the 'major' tags also include the minor tags.

like harry potter should include things tagged Harry Potter, but also harry potter au, marauders era, fantasic beasts era, but if someone clicks on the marauders era tag, it shouldn't load everything tagged Harry Potter. though, idk if nested tags are possible, are they?

 

[al103]

lewd - lewds - hentai - smut - erotica - ero - sex - ecchi - fucking - nsfw - 18+ - adult - adult content - rule 34 - explicit - mature - sexual content - sexual -> erotica

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Isn't meaning of ecchi "fanservice WITHOUT porn" so explcitly not for this list?

 

[Gray Walker]

Hm. Is there any way to list every tag that exists within the forum's system and paste them all in a big list for us to comb through?

Also, with the combining of synonymous tags, will tags added purely as jokes be wiped as they clutter things? Or would those remain untouched?

 

[Kitty S. Lillian]

A synonym list:
pokephila - pokephilia - pokephilia and people sex too - [maybe] pokephilia is part of worldbuilding - bisexual pokephilia

Going by your separation of "harem" and "harem eventually" that suggests that "pokephilia?" may not go in.

Probably not Synonyms, as they have distinct meanings. It's inconvenient if a user wants to find (or exclude) both, but some people might want to find (or exclude) one or the other.

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So... implications, like boorus (or at least e621) have, which should be directional and multiple, rather than simply groupings.

e.g. Worm AU implies Worm (parahumans) and AU; bisexual pokephilia implies bisexual and pokephilia...

 

[Serenity Wisp]

I am afraid my shit got clocked, haha

For me personally at least I really love the AO3 system, makes finding something I would really enjoy reading so much easier and I don't have to second guess if its actually what I am looking for


One big example for me is flirting out M/M fics since I don't care for them. On AO3 it's with the press of a button. On QQ, I would have to exclude gay, yaoi, m/m, male on male, gay romance, and every single tag related so it deffo makes a difference

I did try searching by tags on QQ for a bit but it quickly became an exercise in absurdity. I am grateful that authors on this website give you the premise in the title but a more robust tag system would I think make life easier

I heavily doubt QQ will be close to the AO3 system but any improvement is always better. And a huge thank you to the staff for undertaking this

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Honestly, I use Ao3 a lot too, and the tagging system does still leave a lot to be desired unfortunately for that. It's too specific a lot of the time, picking one version of a tag that hasn't be standardized yet often excludes all similar tags that authors use, and a lot of tags just outright can't have filters applied despite being fairly popular as it hasn't been set by a moderator yet, so you can't filter out stuff you don't like. I have some nonstandard kinks that aren't set to be filterable so I have to deal with a lot of things I'm not into like lolicon or shotacon, scat, etc. unfortunately.

So in some ways making it more robust would be a negative more than a positive unless you can manage to figure out a perfect system for yourself, which even then only tends to work for big tags.

 

[EllaWolf]

Honestly, I use Ao3 a lot too, and the tagging system does still leave a lot to be desired unfortunately for that. It's too specific a lot of the time, picking one version of a tag that hasn't be standardized yet often excludes all similar tags that authors use, and a lot of tags just outright can't have filters applied despite being fairly popular as it hasn't been set by a moderator yet, so you can't filter out stuff you don't like. I have some nonstandard kinks that aren't set to be filterable so I have to deal with a lot of things I'm not into like lolicon or shotacon, scat, etc. unfortunately.

So in some ways making it more robust would be a negative more than a positive unless you can manage to figure out a perfect system for yourself, which even then only tends to work for big tags.

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True, and tbh I think QQ becoming like AO3 is a negative considering the nature of the platform and the stories on it. something like chaos gacha, all the celestial things and waifu catalog would never make it on AO3 or FF.Net. but they have a home here and in the other forums like SB or SV.

and tbh I am using AO3 as an example since thats the only place where tags make sense (unless you count fimfiction), QQ, SB and SV are not the best at it, FF.net is horribly limited and very archaic so its the only example of a tag system I know being implemented somewhat right

but obvs, changes will need to happen for this forum specifically so it will be up to the mods and staff to find a middle ground in the end

 

[Nadi_Naps]

I would have thought you would have relabelled the tags minor/major au to minor/major alternate universe instead of just minor/major au, if for nothing else but for consistency's sake since you relabelled the au tag to alternate universe.

Its likely really minor, all things considered, but I feel like tag predictability is somewhat important.

Also, now I think about it si/oc is a bit weird to settle on specially since you also consolidated the other SI tags into Self Insert. Maybe something more descriptive would be better than si/oc, like Original Inserted Character(s).

Basically, I feel like if you're avoiding using shorthand for certain tags, which it looks like you are for the most part, you should try to apply that standard to all of them.

 

[Kazuki_King]

Not gone through the thread precisely enough to see if this was recommended.

Merger of stuff like Science, Mad Science, Science Fiction and other Science Adjacent stuff into a merged Science category?

It would seem like it would mislead some stories but those same stories already contain tags and summary's describing what is happening in their story.

 

[Kitty S. Lillian]

adding to this, is there a place on the site where you can look at all the tags sorted by popularity or something? seems the only way you can search using a tag right now is if you know a tag exists.

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Tag search (rightmost tab of the search page) will let you see the most popular tags down to some threshold, with size indicating popularity.

 

[AnotherHamster]

{monstergirl - monstergirls - monster girl - monster girls} should probably be merged. I don't know which one should be the new main tag.

 

[SoS]

{Rsm, reverse sexual morality, reversed sexual morality, reversed sexual morals, gender "reveserd" world, gender role reversal, reverse moral sexuality, reversed gender morality, reversed gender roles, reverse gender roles, reversed sexual morality kinda?, sorta reversed gender morality, reverse gender role equestria-lite, reverse sexual morality universe, reverse sexual morality slow build up}

This is actually awesome that you guys are doing this, I was thinking about complaining about it just yesterday.

 

[FeatheredSerpent]

God speed and God bless, @LurkingInTheDeceit .

Still, about the parent/child tag system. If the current system allows the linking of some tags to "canonized" bracket it couldn't be that difficult to elaborate the system to allow one-direction link for hierarchic reference.
Is there any chance people that do have their sweaty hands on the backend will get to it in the foreseeable future?
That will allow resolving great many concerns and issues voiced in this thread.

 

[NumberSix]

So, the 'replying to all useful feedback' idea was nice in theory, but, um, practically unmanageable. So I'm gonna stop quoting future leads, and put them in a master list I've added to the OP, and just do a general reply to topics with lots of posts.

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I did some tests to see how tag moderation works, and so can clarify my idea of how I'm going to do things. Unlike the system @Facepalmist explained SB has, we do not have parent/child groups, or an option for automatic refusal at creation of previously merged tags. What we do have is the ability to merge (converting all selected tags on the forum into a designated tag), and the Synonym/Canonisation systems.

I'm going to use a combination of these. For all duplicates, I'm going to merge, so all existing threads have the standardised Canon Tag. Then, to prevent having to play wack-a-mole in the future, I'm going to independently recreate those incorrect tags, and make them Synonyms of the new Canon tag. So, it'll be a one-time clear out, and, when people inevitably start filling up their threads with duplicates again, it's still fixed on the backend, so we don't have to monitor an approval process.

Obviously, people won't stop making new varieties of identical tags, which we'll have to fix, but that's less onerous than retreading old ground.

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The hierarchy doesn't need to be formal or implemented in code, yet, but if you do get somebody to improve it on the backend.
That is why I was proposing world: or setting: as an informal predicate and maybe having some doc that heavily suggests it during tag creation.
Also if you wan to have better separation like AO3 has, namely relationship: F/F/, M/F, etc it would be easier to display them and for people to search for them.
It makes stuff more orderly.
Like for example if we could just search for MaoMao/Loulan in pairing by doing pairing:MaoMao/Loulan, setting:apothecary diaries,
and relationship:f/f.

It also organizes the DB better down the line and could also help you include tag aliases more easily if you want to avoid excess wrangling and work.

That there's a smaller number of fics using a tag doesn't mean it should be merged into a more popular related tag. Basically the opposite, in that someone wanting to find that less popular tag would be pretty negatively impacted by it.

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Yeah, but that means tag creation and wrangling overhead, and you mods having to do more work in the future.
Something you guys wanna minimize.

 

[dastot]

The names of the most prominent work/series are often used for the whole setting, even if that setting has another official name. This is so ubiquitous that changing it would lead to more confusion than clarification.

For example, it might be more correct to refer to the "Harry Potter" universe as "Wizarding World", and only use "Harry Potter" for fics in that specific timeframe, influenced by that series of books and movies:

Fic setting \ its tags	"Harry Potter" as primary setting tag	"Wizarding World" as primary setting tag
Fic set in "Harry Potter" itself	"Harry Potter"	"Wizarding World", "Harry Potter"
Fic set in the Marauders era	"Harry Potter", "Marauders Era"	"Wizarding World", "Marauders Era"
Fics set in "Hogwarts Legacy"	"Harry Potter", "Hogwarts Legacy"	"Wizarding World", "Hogwarts Legacy"
Fics set after "Harry Potter" canon	"Harry Potter", "After Canon"	"Wizarding World", "Harry Potter", "After Canon" (neither specific nor entirely correct) "Wizarding World", "After Harry Potter Canon" (wordy and prone to variation)

But as you can see, switching to "Wizarding World" would introduce as many problems as it solves. Add to that that over 95% of existing threads use "Harry Potter" as the only setting tag*, and it becomes clear that making "Wizarding World" the new standard would only lead to confusion - some would follow, some wouldn't, but the result would be less uniform than what we have now. This pattern holds with respect to other sites. Almost the entire internet uses "Harry Potter" as the main tag, not "Wizarding World".
* I checked - 40 pages of results for "Harry Potter", 2 for "Wizarding World"

It's even clearer for "Worm"/"Parahumans", since the sequel might as well not exist. 40 pages for "Worm", 2 each for "Worm (Parahumans)" and "Parahumans", and just six sad results for "Ward". There may be a handful uses for the "Worm" tag unrelated to "Parahumans", but those overlaps are negligible. That's like slapping the "Superman" tag on a Nietzschean fic rather than DC. It's pretty far fetched and there will always be potential for ambiguity if you try hard enough.

Breaking up those standards would only make things worse, hence, I strongly recommend against changing the setting tags.

 

[BambooSplinter]

Re: self-insert/oc inserts. My new proposed merges are these:
Separated to distinguish between inserts based on the author, existing characters being inserted, and original characters being inserted. I unfortunately can't merge the second bunch into 'existing character insert', as I'm sure people are using those tags for OCs as well, so it still needs to make sense in those cases.

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The third bunch should still be si/oc insert, right? The insert may or may not be an oc, but its definitely a self insert. OCs dont always have meta knowledge like an SI would so we'd need a tag to search for self inserts specifically

 

[Heather]

Can we consolidate the various "author craves reviews", "motivated by discussion" and "Comments appreciated". Like I am personally motivated by discussion to write, about to do another drop of snippets and such after writing comments again, but there are so many versions of that tag style it is crazy to read some of the tags.

Not sure if that would help or hurt author morale but figured it was worth mentioning.

 

[dastot]

Is it/Could it become possible for the author to put tags in non-alphabetical order? I'd love to put a dozen tags on my story, so that it will be found when searching for sets of tags. However, the tag list is often shortened, showing just the first three or four, and the most important ones lie in the latter half of the alphabet.