Trials of the God-Harem King [Highschool DxD/Exalted] (CLOSED)

[EternitynChaos]

Of course, I also tend to require none Exalts to learn at least one complete Terrestrial Martial Art Style before starting on learning CMA, even the charms to unlock it if they are a Dragon Blood who didn't start as a Monk


...it says alot about my thoughts on the DB's that I subconsciously put them in the 'Not real Exalts' pile dosn't it /laugh

 

[Unelemental]

Of course, I also tend to require none Exalts to learn at least one complete Terrestrial Martial Art Style before starting on learning CMA, even the charms to unlock it if they are a Dragon Blood who didn't start as a Monk


...it says alot about my thoughts on the DB's that I subconsciously put them in the 'Not real Exalts' pile dosn't it /laugh

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That's perfectly understandable. Having the words "Exalted" and "foot-soldier" in the same sentence weirds me out.

 

[Indrik]

Good, that's a far more reasonable approach to the issue, Alexander. I reiterate that 'Dragon Steals the Blossom Method' if approved in some form should be limited to training TMA.

And Eternity, I agree that Issei need not be the top tier, but there is little reason to spread unique knowledge that effectively reduces his standing and power beyond the closest companions either. The Half-caste bypass is iffy, even if you somehow manage to transform other races into one, and Half-castes are overpowered for what they are meant to be. Essence 3 Solar charms for non-Exalted is ridiculous. The Player's Guide fluff describes them as "their power was even less significant than the Dragon-Blooded and, so, merited little concern." Ess 3 charms and CMAs are quite beyond that and Neph, the author of the Half-Caste section, clarified they were limited to TMAs like all God-blooded on the forum.

Granted this is far from canon and Rule 0, but still. Naturally, YMMV.

 

[EternitynChaos]

Alexanders already said they only get Exalted Excellencys, everything else is Solar Flavored Spirit Charms, but thinking some more, yeah I can agree with that, its not like it would stop him from teaching CMA in the event that he wanted to, it would just make it more of an investment. Basicly the difference between a Mentor and Sifu background I guess, and if nothing else, we can always learn TWTT's upgrade charm

 

[Eler0]

Dragon Steals The Blossom Method doesn't refund xp for charms you already know that become cheaper when you buy it, like Swallowing the Lotus Root does. Is this intentional?

it also shatters the blocks preventing the Solar from creating or learning Sidereal Martial Arts on their own

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I was under the impression that Solars can't create SMAs not because they lack power, but because it requires a certain understanding of the world that they just don't have. I'm not sure adding the perspective of a Dragon would really help with that. It sounds like the charm brute-forces something that requires a certain degree of enlightenment.

 

[Indrik]

As far as charms, I was referring to canon 2ed rules and using them as comparison for why CMA should be beyond Half-castes, which is applicable to this discussion.

I tend to hold fast that if Dragon-Blooded can't use Celestial charms natively, no non-Exalt should have access. That's a little more flexible due to the crossover nature of this quest, but it still shouldn't be an easy or common thing. Also, given Issei is the only possible source of Exalted MA in the setting, it has no reason to spread to the Devils/Fallen/Angels (I'd even swear Rias' peerage to secrecy if we eventually decided to train them) or various pantheons.

 

[EternitynChaos]

Ophis = Infinity, Great Red = Dream, these two dragons represent Concepts, its kinda a thing, and yes its intentional, its part of the price of learning, after all it would make it less of a price if you got half the xp back on getting the charm.

And yeah, thats a good description of what happens, I descibed this as the nearest thing there is to a Heretic Solar Charm, though probably only the Siddys would call it that, because it breaks things that shouldn't be broken.

and by learning this it makes it so it costs 12xp to learn SMA charms, even if at some point you get a Sifu to teach you.

As a side note Issei' theme wise reminds me of a mashup of Malfaes and UCS basicly, he even has the colours Green and Gold /laugh

 

[Alexander]

As a side note Issei' theme wise reminds me of a mashup of Malfaes and UCS basicly, he even has the colours Green and Gold /laugh

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It does, doesn't it? That's also why Bright wasn't so thrilled about Issei learning Dragon Knacks: she doesn't trust the color Green.

Reworked Eternity's Charm

Dragon Steals The Root Method
Cost: 15m, 2w
Min: Martial Arts 5, Essence 4
Type: Simple (Dramatic Action)
Keywords: Obvious, Touch, Training
Duration: One Week
Prerequisites: One Celestial Martial Art Form-type Charm, the character must have trained at least 3 students in the martial arts (at least one must have learned a form charm, the other two must have at least learned one charm)

Neither Solars nor Dragons take being told they can't do something well. Unlike mortal men, however, their response to this is invariably to prove the person spouting these lies wrong. This Charm is the culmination of that principle combined with Hyoudo Issei's desire to guard and empower those he cares about. On a personal level this charm reduces the Xp cost for all Terrestrial Martial Arts Charms to 4x, or 5xp if Martial Arts is not a Caste or Favored Ability, and their training time is halved. Learning this charm excludes the Solar from learning the Charm Swallowing the Lotus Root.

As a Secondary ability this Charm works like Tiger Warrior Training Technique, except it requires both trainer and student to share a positive intimacy of some sort, and allows training in any of the following up to the Solar's level: Martial Arts, Melee Strength, Dexterity, Stamina, Terrestrial Martial Arts Charms and any Excellency's that can be learned by the student.

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Here's my attempt as a Devil-Tiger Issei. I will update the post as inspiration comes.

Name: The Radiant Dragon

First Excellency of the Radiant Dragon

The Radiant Dragon takes pride in his supremacy above all beings. He enjoys freedom and strives to reach perfection in everything he tries.

 

[The Slumbering Crocodile]

New charm looks better; allowing a Solar to learn/create Sidereal Martial Arts is really an Essence 6+ effect, in my opinion. But why are you trying to turn Issei in a Devil-Tiger? I'm not saying he can't -- Solar -- or even that he shouldn't -- Devil-Tigers are awesome -- but I'm not seeing anything to cause it, no trigger, or even awareness of the possibility. I mean, Primordial equivalents simply don't exist in DxD; the closest thing would be an entire pantheon, like the entirety of Olympus or Asgard.

 

[EternitynChaos]

Hmmm, well, I like the Devil-Tiger Issei, as far as the Charm goes, I'm guessing this is the first charm in a set, Terrestrial discount & teaching, Celestial + Sidereal Discount, Learning and Creating?

 

[Least Devotee]

As far as charms, I was referring to canon 2ed rules and using them as comparison for why CMA should be beyond Half-castes, which is applicable to this discussion.

I tend to hold fast that if Dragon-Blooded can't use Celestial charms natively, no non-Exalt should have access. That's a little more flexible due to the crossover nature of this quest, but it still shouldn't be an easy or common thing. Also, given Issei is the only possible source of Exalted MA in the setting, it has no reason to spread to the Devils/Fallen/Angels (I'd even swear Rias' peerage to secrecy if we eventually decided to train them) or various pantheons.

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It would be a good idea to remember that god's and other spirits can learn CMA they just have to be E4-5+ IIRC.

Also while I agree with most of your other points I would keep the ability to teach others Excellencies they can learn remember not all of those we might end up teaching are Enlightened Mortals. And the GM seems to be keeping that bit

 

[Eler0]

You need to know a MA Style to teach it, right? Even at half xp costs, learning all the TMA we want to teach our girls is going to be expensive.

 

[EternitynChaos]

We have a cheat with Bright in our head, any MA that was around in the first age we can teach thanks to her, TMA or CMA, its also why we can get SMA later on

 

[Alexander]

New charm looks better; allowing a Solar to learn/create Sidereal Martial Arts is really an Essence 6+ effect, in my opinion. But why are you trying to turn Issei in a Devil-Tiger? I'm not saying he can't -- Solar -- or even that he shouldn't -- Devil-Tigers are awesome -- but I'm not seeing anything to cause it, no trigger, or even awareness of the possibility. I mean, Primordial equivalents simply don't exist in DxD; the closest thing would be an entire pantheon, like the entirety of Olympus or Asgard.

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I am not. This is an intellectual exercise. I just like to think things up.

Like this: when I has inspiration I wrote an alternative chant for Juggernaut Drive:

I, who is about to awaken
Am the Red Dragon Emperor that received the principle of domination from the Unconquered Sun
I walk the road of righteousness with infinite potential and pursuing the dream of perfection
I shall become the True Radiant God-King of Crimson Dragon
And I will lead you to the Path of Heaven, which shines in deep crimson light!

 

[EternitynChaos]

Building off Alexanders rebuild of my charm, because I'm bored and I've got nothing to read /laugh

Dragon Steals The Lotus Method
Cost:-
Min: Martial Arts 5 Essence 5
Type: Permenant
Keywords: None
Duration: Permenant
Prerequisites: Dragon Steals The Root Method, One Mastered Celestial Martial Art Style (Up to Capstone Charm), 3 Students in the martial arts (all must have learned at least a form charm, one must have mastered there styles capstone charm)

Just as the Viziers before him, Hyodo Issei has walked the road of martial excellence, and just as the Viziers has helped others along that road as well, and in doing so he has learned more of how the world works and how they themselves see the world then he ever expected, perhaps more then he ever should have been able to, only time will tell.

This Charm upgrades is prerequisite Dragon Steals the Root Method, so that it includes Celestial Martial Arts in its discount, it also allows the teaching of Celestial Martial Arts Charms to Students capable of learning, BUT does not give the ability to learn Celestial Martial Arts.
-At Martial Arts 6 Essence 6 This Charm upgrades, allowing at a cost of 12xp per charm, and 3 weeks training (as long as it takes to learn a Solar Circle Spell) to learn a Sidereal Martial Arts charm, at Martial Arts 7 and Essence 7 this Charm upgrades again, and the Solar is counted as a Native user for ALL Martial arts charms, allowing him to learn, and create charms as the ST allows, and use the Student and Eldar Sutra as if he were a Sidereal Exalt.

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In my defence of the last part of this charm, not only is it really really far in the future, but its the culmination of all his hard work, and I have this desire to have Siddys tearing there hair out over him.

 

[Indrik]

The new charm is better, Alexander, but has some new and remaining issues. First, the cost. The original inspiration charm Tiger Warrior Training Technique is designed to train military units whereas Dragon Steals the Root is for a single student at a time. It just doesn't make sense for DStR to have a higher mote cost than TWTT unless you are also charging for the TMA part, which is a permanent trait. Permanent or indefinite charms do not typically have mote cost (marked by -).

Second, I'm still questioning the training dot limit being equal to the Solar's own. First, training a non-Solar to be a Solar's equal doesn't work with the nature of a Solar Exaltation or UCS themes and second, once we break the 5 dot cap and go to higher levels, this charm as currently written would allow 6+ dot training. That just doesn't work. I'd keep the original wording from the canon charm: maximum rank of 4 or Solar's own rank, whichever is lower.

Also, given the switch to TMA, the prereq being CMA seems odd. But you probably just overlooked this.

Eternity's extension charm Dragon Steal the Lotus Method seems fine at first glance.

It would be a good idea to remember that god's and other spirits can learn CMA they just have to be E4-5+ IIRC.

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Well, yes, but the major comparison was between Exalted and other 'mortal' creatures. Gods and spirits are different, and to reiterate such beings in DxD have no access to MA charms or styles without Issei teaching them to someone untrustworthy or with mixed loyalties. I don't particularly see that being an issue, so it wasn't relevant.

 

[EternitynChaos]

One thing that may be interesting to consider, Can the people we teach, teach other? I'm unsure if they will be able to, maybe the TMA, though it will likely take a decade or two to hit the form charm, but if we ever taught someone CMA, I don't think they could be able to pass it along even if they wanted to, kinda like the average Solar can't pass on SMA even if they know it

 

[Alexander]

The new charm is better, Alexander, but has some new and remaining issues. First, the cost. The original inspiration charm Tiger Warrior Training Technique is designed to train military units whereas Dragon Steals the Root is for a single student at a time. It just doesn't make sense for DStR to have a higher mote cost than TWTT unless you are also charging for the TMA part, which is a permanent trait. Permanent or indefinite charms do not typically have mote cost (marked by -).

Second, I'm still questioning the training dot limit being equal to the Solar's own. First, training a non-Solar to be a Solar's equal doesn't work with the nature of a Solar Exaltation or UCS themes and second, once we break the 5 dot cap and go to higher levels, this charm as currently written would allow 6+ dot training. That just doesn't work. I'd keep the original wording from the canon charm: maximum rank of 4 or Solar's own rank, whichever is lower.

Also, given the switch to TMA, the prereq being CMA seems odd. But you probably just overlooked this.

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This better?

Dragon Steals The Root Method
Cost: 10m, 1w
Min: Martial Arts 5, Essence 4
Type: Simple (Dramatic Action)
Keywords: Obvious, Touch, Training
Duration: One Week
Prerequisites: Any Martial Arts Charm

Neither Solars nor Dragons take being told they can't do something well. Unlike mortal men, however, their response to this is invariably to prove the person spouting these lies wrong. This Charm is the culmination of that principle combined with Hyoudo Issei's desire to guard and empower those he cares about. On a personal level this charm reduces the Xp cost for all Terrestrial Martial Arts Charms to 4x, or 5xp if Martial Arts is not a Caste or Favored Ability, and their training time is halved. Learning this charm excludes the Solar from learning the Charm Swallowing the Lotus Root.

As a Secondary ability this Charm works like Tiger Warrior Training Technique, except it requires both trainer and students, up to Magnitude 1, to share a positive intimacy of some sort. It allows training up to a maximum rank of 4 or the Solar's own rank in that area, whichever is lower, in any of the following: Martial Arts, Melee, Strength, Dexterity, Stamina, Terrestrial Martial Arts Charms and any Excellency's that can be learned by the student.

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[EternitynChaos]

Looks good to me Alexander, what do you think of my extension charm?

 

[Fellgar]

Second, I'm still questioning the training dot limit being equal to the Solar's own. First, training a non-Solar to be a Solar's equal doesn't work with the nature of a Solar Exaltation or UCS themes and second, once we break the 5 dot cap and go to higher levels, this charm as currently written would allow 6+ dot training. That just doesn't work. I'd keep the original wording from the canon charm: maximum rank of 4 or Solar's own rank, whichever is lower.

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Your forgetting that mortals do have actual limits they can't surpass using this setting/rules set. They would still need essence 6 to be able to breach the human limit and train to a skill level of 6 dots or seven essence to train to seven dots etc. Just because they can be trained to reach that superhuman skill level doesn't mean they are currently able to train up to it. The charm merely allows for the option once they are capable of it.

Alex the only thing you would have had to worry about was the mote cost. The training levels that can be set to teach others with that charm are fine as is.

 

[Alexander]

Looks good to me Alexander, what do you think of my extension charm?

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How's this?

Dragon Steals The Lotus Method
Cost: -
Min: Martial Arts 5, Essence 5
Type: Permanent
Keywords: None
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisites: Dragon Steals The Root Method, One Mastered Celestial Martial Art Style (Up to Capstone Charm), 3 Students in the martial arts (all must have learned at least a form charm)

Just as the Viziers before him, Hyodo Issei has walked the road of martial excellence, and just as the Viziers he has helped others along that road as well. In doing so he has learned more of how the world works and how they themselves see the world then he ever expected, perhaps more then he ever should have been able to.

This Charm upgrades its prerequisite Dragon Steals the Root Method so that it includes Celestial Martial Arts in its discount. It also allows the teaching of Celestial Martial Arts Charms to Students already capable of learning them.

At Martial Arts 6 and Essence 6 this Charm upgrades: now it allows, at a cost of 12 Xp per charm and 3 weeks of training, to learn the Charms of a Sidereal Martial Art without a Sifu. At Martial Arts 7 and Essence 7 this Charm upgrades again: the Solar is now counted as a Native user for ALL Martial arts charms, allowing him to learn and create styles as the ST allows, and use the Student and Eldar Sutra as if he were a Sidereal Exalt.

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You see this? This will cause Kejop Chejak to have a stroke if you ever go to Creation )

Alex the only thing you would have had to worry about was the mote cost. The training levels that can be set to teach others with that charm are fine as is.

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Yes, but this way we can go at it faster

 

[EternitynChaos]

I love that imagery there Alexander ^^ it couldn't happen to a more deserving Siddy /laugh

 

[Fellgar]

How's this?You see this? This will cause Kejop Chejak to have a stroke if you ever go to Creation )Yes, but this way we can go at it faster

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... that has nothing at all to do with the speed. It's only effecting how high we can teach people. Instead of expert only we can instead actually teach someone up to master level. Frankly not being able to teach a mortal to master level in a skill is SOD breaking for a solar. They have done harder things at lower power levels.


Is it SOD? I can never remember that correct acronym.

 

[EternitynChaos]

ah, I think I see the problem, he thought you were complaining about the cost, rather then limiting things to 4 max, where as you are fine with the cost, but think the limit to training should be Issei's ability, as the Perfect Trainer, is still Perfect, right? also SOD = Suspension of Disbelief.

 

[Indrik]

Your forgetting that mortals do have actual limits they can't surpass using this setting/rules set. They would still need essence 6 to be able to breach the human limit and train to a skill level of 6 dots or seven essence to train to seven dots etc. Just because they can be trained to reach that superhuman skill level doesn't mean they are currently able to train up to it. The charm merely allows for the option once they are capable of it.

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True for Exalted mortals, but given the issues of the DxD cross and its various races, better to be sure I think. Plus it isn't as if it can't be added as a feature of the extension charm if desired. Also, it is a limitation of the original canon charm, which is admittedly lower essence.

Personally, I'm against non Creation (due to motonic physics) or Exalted being able to match the average Exalted master (few campaigns go beyond E5 in my experience) *in Exalted MA*, excepting styles. It's just lessening the stature of the Exalted. The DxD major races (Devil/Fallen/Angel) have their own existing advantages without them also gaining high-rank Exalted abilities, even if limited to MA. MA 4 + TMA is already a fairly large boost to combat outside magic and racial/House powers.

Edit: Typo and making the implication obvious in ** so it can't be taken out of context or misunderstood.

 

[EternitynChaos]

Erm, I would like to point out, that we not only have DxD, but I think there is also the whole Satsujin/Katsujin group from HSDK... if the Elder from that dosn't have 7's across the board and isn't rocking skills on par to CMA then I will be amazed

 

[Alexander]

... that has nothing at all to do with the speed. It's only effecting how high we can teach people. Instead of expert only we can instead actually teach someone up to master level. Frankly not being able to teach a mortal to master level in a skill is SOD breaking for a solar. They have done harder things at lower power levels.

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How's this?

Dragon Steals The Root Method
Cost: 10m, 1w
Min: Martial Arts 5, Essence 4
Type: Simple (Dramatic Action)
Keywords: Obvious, Touch, Training
Duration: One Week
Prerequisites: Any Martial Arts Charm

Neither Solars nor Dragons take being told they can't do something well. Unlike mortal men, however, their response to this is invariably to prove the person spouting these lies wrong. This Charm is the culmination of that principle combined with Hyoudo Issei's desire to guard and empower those he cares about. On a personal level this charm reduces the Xp cost for all Terrestrial Martial Arts Charms to 4x, or 5xp if Martial Arts is not a Caste or Favored Ability, and their training time is halved. Learning this charm excludes the Solar from learning the Charm Swallowing the Lotus Root.

As a Secondary ability this Charm works like Tiger Warrior Training Technique, except it requires both trainer and students, up to Magnitude 1, to share a positive intimacy of some sort. It allows training up to the Solar's own rank in that area (but not beyond the natural cap of the target) in any of the following: Martial Arts, Melee, Strength, Dexterity, Stamina, Terrestrial Martial Arts Charms and any Excellency's that can be learned by the student.

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See the thing in bold? It ensures that no one can go beyond their cap without raising it first with another method. This way supernatural races, who may have a higher cap compared to humans, are included.

 

[Fellgar]

ah, I think I see the problem, he thought you were complaining about the cost, rather then limiting things to 4 max, where as you are fine with the cost, but think the limit to training should be Issei's ability, as the Perfect Trainer, is still Perfect, right? also SOD = Suspension of Disbelief.

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Actually I meant the cost was a little high, but I threw that on after I wrote most of the rest of my argument. I am kind of fine with it since the charm is designed to be done during down time so I don't mind the cost so much since we are unlikely to get into a fight, and we could just boosted gear anyways to pay the cost and only really get effected by the hit to willpower. I shouldn't have put it in anyways.

So yeah, my main complaint is that the perfect teacher should be able to perfectly teach their student up to their highest potential or up to the teachers level, whichever is lower. Artificially enforcing that all students can only be taught up to expert level just seems really weak. If their potential can have their skill be brought higher and the teacher knows what it takes to get their they should be able to teach the student up to the limit of their potential. That in my mind is what a perfect teacher should be able to accomplish.

 

[EternitynChaos]

That looks perfect to me, means we can get them as high as they could get naturally, but we can't push them above that without pulling out the big guns

 

[Alexander]

Anyway, I gotta go now. No update today sorry.

Buut, if when I open this thread again I see many people have posted and some of them proposed interesting original materials, either for the story or just general brainstorming because Exalted stuff is fun, I may be inclined to speed up a little 8)

(P.S.: I have an exam soon and I decided to dedicate my scarce free time to this quest. Don't make me regret it :-\)