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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Discussion in 'Creative Writing' started by Mr Zoat, Jan 27, 2019.

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  1. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    That comes from one relatively recent comic. It's about as core to their identity as the Starheart being evil is to Alan's.
     
  2. Radix

    Radix Making the rounds.

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    I have to agree with Zoat here.

    The Amazons of DC have an established history. They are not the Amazons of myth. Just like Marvel's Thor isnt a redhead.

    The New 52 completely perverted the story of Wonder Woman. The Lasso isnt used as much, she is focused on as a warrior instead of a peacebringer. They make Ares her mentor. And the Amazons are child killers.

    If Azarello wanted to tell his own story with his own character, fine. But that isnt Wonder Woman and it isnt the Amazons.
     
  3. Someguy Somewhere

    Someguy Somewhere The Critical Fumbler

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    DC's Nu52 and Marvel's Ultimates are, to me, a sort of late onset dark age of comics-itis.

    The Dark Age of comics came out after The Watchmen, and The Dark Knight Returns came out to great success. Those were different from main stream comics at the time, and everyone jumped on the bandwagon. The thing is, they were popular as a change of pace from the norm, not as a full on replacement. But the industry saw money in it so everything had to be like those, no matter how little they actually resembled those stories.

    Everything needed to be grimdark, because for some reason comic book characters needed to be horribly flawed, warped caricatures of themselves was the hip thing to do. I have no idea why they felt the need to once more toss the baby out with the bathwater and reboot things to bring in new readers. The Reboots are always 'we want young comic readers to be able to enjoy our stories without having to understand 20+ years of history'.

    But that's the thing, you can have new readers enjoy a story, by writing a GOOD STORY. The Lore is all great and stuff, but if you want to get folks in the door you still need a functional narrative. But no comic book company is actually writing for individual comic sales anymore, they all write for collections.

    Now, I'm more of a Marvel fan then a DC fan, because of how the stories were written. The Difference in Classic DC story telling was having heroes as great paragons, demigods in their own rights with powers far beyond mere mortals. They fought great titans and monsters and gods. Classic Marvel made human heroes. Powers that are generally just barely superhuman, that had to worry about the very human interactions. They were flawed like how normal people are flawed, and fought villains that were likewise flawed.

    DC's big name hero's are so over the top powerful that generally there ISN'T a problem they can't punch their way out of, so they have to go for some big personal story to give conflict, because you can't just have a 'Punch the Bank Robber, The End' story and keep butts in seats like when it was the news paper strip days.

    With the new age of comics, they want flawed heros because they actually have some personality, but they warp it well beyond what 'flawed hero' . Some hit Anti Hero territory, and yeah you can tell those stories too. But some went straight out Villainous, while still expecting to be seen as the Heroes because that's what the character was intended to be.

    Both Marvel and DC had options, when they wanted to explore alternate interptations of a character, the Elseworld comics, or the alternate timelines stuff. They could go out, show off some authors's different version of a character, and see what hit and what missed. Some characters, or aspects of characters, that proved popular wormed their way into the main stream. Alternatively they could just make new characters with similaries to the old ones....all the Image Comics stuff that was shoveled out the door generally ripped someone off, as an example.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
  4. Someguy Somewhere

    Someguy Somewhere The Critical Fumbler

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    Actually....I've got a question for the DC experts out there.

    It comes as a rather big source of real world issues occurred right around when those Grim changes started to return to comics.

    In the months after 9/11 happened, Marvel made a specific comic highlighting the event in their universe, making the actions canon to the fictional universe, to a degree. Marvel tended to, both before and after, stick fairly close to reality when it came to their maps of the world, and the nations in it. Yes there were fictional countries shoe horned in, but the middle east was still recognizable. With Marvel's 'sliding timeline' method for their mainline universe, we see those events influence the universe. Old versions of Iron Man for example had his origin in 'Nam, where as most now place his wounding in Afghanistan. We even see on occasion a real world political figure show up.

    DC, at the time didn't really mention the attacks in universe. And it is rather hard to see it happening in a world where superman or a dozen other characters could almost single-handedly stopped it. And DC tends to fudge the geography of the world a fair bit more when it came using fictional nations as stand ins for real ones, and fictional political leaders standing in for real world ones.

    Both universes have had reboots on one scale or another since it happened, and I do know that marvel has stuck far closer to things before as after. Writing for Both Marvel and DC took a turn towards something far more Grim after the real world events occurred, and fictional terrorists became a fairly easy target for 'generic villains' as well as sources of stories in the aftermath.

    With WTR, Paul had a talk with Zatanna and a local cabbie when he was in the middle east, that pointed out the differences in their two universes. It's one of the little parts of this story that really sticks out in my mind even this long after reading it.

    But I really don't know if the 'mainline' or other DC universes ever really stepped in to say that 'Yes, it did happen' and the fictional versions impact on the setting.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
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  5. Flightless Man

    Flightless Man Know what you're doing yet?

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    If Nu52's biggest/worst changes got done in Elseworlds, they would have been fine. The issue was rewritting half the DC landscape and leaving everything hard to even recognize/contradictory to how we knew the characters.
    We have had the Warlike and man hating Amazons since 1989 (Bana Mighdall), Why didn't Nu52 have Wonder Woman from that group of Amazons instead and then her warlike behaviour makes sense. They could have had the Themysciran Amazons be revealed later. I'm fine with changes, but why did they make a 120 degree turn when they had had some Amazons they could have slightly nudged and fit the narrative he wanted.
    Nu52 had some good ideas/concepts but the good ones got buried under very poor execution and the pile of bad ones.



    Someone else said Zoat changes characters, He really hasn't for he most part in the way of backstories only in character growth (considering how different some of the Team and League/Allies are). Characters generally are introduced in a very recognizable manor and change through the story. Billy didn't start with the sword of Beowulf. Komand'r would have gone her normal route fairly soon without Paul's arrival. Alan was a dying Ex green, who is now a middle aged blue.
    I change things in my stories, by accident and I fess up or on purpose with a reason. Zoat has only had a few minor mistakes I have noticed over 10ish years(and half the ones I did, were not wrong, only things I learned from a different era so are different from how I know). He needs to keep Paragon verse mainline and recognizable, or readers could/will have a way harder time understanding the changes made. He has done a very good job and I commend him for keeping so closely inline with Pre Flashpoint canon.

    Personally I find the space arcs the most boring. I find the stakes hardest to comprehend/relate to, the space sections feel disconnected and I can't picture where they are in relation to earlier worlds we visited. I am very geography focus and I really have a hard time caring when I don't really know where anything is. This is not a fault of Zoat's, it's a failing of mine in visualization. Does anyone know of a map of YJ space? It would really help me have a better general idea of where things happened.
     
  6. Radix

    Radix Making the rounds.

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    It's funny you mention the 9/11 special. It is kind of ironic becausw it has Doom crying over some people dying in a terrorist attack. He is personally responsible for terrorist attacks on New York.

    Yeah it's not a big deal in DC. In the 90s an alien blew up a major city on the Pacific Coast. They have experienced alien invasions. Gotham got hit by an earthquake; epidemic, and a few other things. A plane flying into the WTC is nothing. Especially since Superman could easily stop a plane hijacking.

    But Marvel also has that. They just pretend to be more real. Do you know what the Avengers were doing during 2001? They were in the midst of the Kang Dynasty where he invaded the Earth and starts what is essentially a world war. He blows up Washington DC in its entirity. People are rounded up into concentration camps. Spider-man is fighting an interdimensional hinter because he is a Spider-totem. A bit later "Magneto" rounds up people in New York into concentration camps.

    Marvel is not the world outside your window.
     
  7. Threadmarks: Anti-Thesis (part 11)
    Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    11th July 2012
    06:15 GMT


    You think you're over your vertigo, then you see a giant miles deep hole in the ground heading towards the planet's core.

    The last time I saw one of these, we were all moving so fast that I didn't really think about it. And I was flying, which meant that my environmental shield made me feel like I was standing on solid ground the entire time. And the hole wasn't that big: it was one of several that got used for raw material transportation as much as anything.

    This is one of the holes they launch star ships through.

    And it's…

    Bigger.

    The area around it is fairly clean, but my armour's sensors pick up the force of the winds created by the imbalance in pressure between Inner Qward and Outer Qward. Naturally there are no guard rails, though there are lights to let the people in the surrounding area know when a ship's en route.

    I can see the other side, but between here and there the ground just vanishes.

    Kalmin doesn't look all that impressed, barely giving the area a once-over before stepping off the edge and accelerating downwards. He's still standing with his feet pointing at the distant ground, so it's a little like he's riding an invisible elevator.

    I can't see the bottom.

    Heh.

    I step off and plummet after him. And decide not to ask if Kalmin wants to play twenty questions.

    "What is your relationship to Weaponer Lysis?"

    "I was her tutor and overseer. Qwardian society can be chauvinistic. It's one of our vices. She had trouble getting a placement after completing her initial training. My foolish contemporaries turned her down. Their loss was my gain."

    Or to quote Terry Pratchett, one of the vices he thinks of as vices. The rest are just job skills.

    "Was she involved in the power ring project?"

    "Yes. Jordan actually met her, briefly, just before he destroyed the Anti-Green Lantern Central Power Battery."

    Might be worth recruiting her, then. Of course, if she was trained by Kalmin and shares his devotion to destruction… Then perhaps not.

    "Does she share your loyalty to the Anti-Monitor?"

    "She… Didn't. She was more interested in creating weapons than in their purpose. But she was talented and devoted to her work. I had every hope that she would eventually come to see things my way, but I was removed from office before I could accomplish that."

    "Kalmin, I realise that you're extremely faithful in your beliefs, but… Roughly how widespread is your viewpoint, to the best of your knowledge?"

    "Why are you asking me?"

    "It occurs to me that Varnathon didn't come out of nowhere. Even if trading qwa matter is outside of the Overton window for most Weaponers-."

    "You think we've gone soft."

    "I think that you would be unwise to assume that a majority of Weaponers are as devoted as you are. Or that those who are prepared to oppose Varnathon are doing it for the same reason that you are."

    He doesn't respond.

    "You just said that you didn't think your own acolyte was quite there. The Anti-Monitor has been gone for some time. How many senior Weaponers do you know keep the faith, rather than just paying it lip service or ignoring it in favour of personal power?"

    "You wish me to believe that Varnathon and people like him are in the majority?"

    "I haven't done any polling, but no one's killed him yet, have they? Despite him not killing you?"

    "You may be right. When I think on my time as High Weaponlord, I realise that I didn't address my people's spiritual needs at all. I only gave direction to their intellects. I had… Thought that was enough. But now… I realise that you may be correct."

    "Does that change what we're here to do?"

    "No. It just makes me aware of my own failing. I would like to put all of the fault on Varnathon, but if we've been heading this way for a while and I was simply blind to it… I am… Ashamed."

    "What exactly are the duties of the High Weaponlord?"

    "To oversee the designing of new destructive technologies to serve the Anti-Monitor's armies. But the whole point is to serve the Anti-Monitor. That's what makes us q'ardajin. Without that, we're… Just like everyone else. I might as well join the Psions!"

    "I'm afraid that you missed the boat on that one."

    "The Apokoliptians, then. I joined you because I wanted to get out of my funk before moving on to work that would actually advance the Anti-Monitor's goals. And now I find that I was never as faithful as I convinced myself that I was."

    "I could be wrong."

    "No, it makes too much sense. Aaaah, how far we've fallen."

    I look at the screen relaying what the upward-facing sensors can see. I'd say a couple of miles at this point, the Qwardian day shining down at the upper end of the tunnel is reduced to a distant point of light.

    "How do you want me to behave?"

    "Remain silent when we are in company. Attack only at my order. That's important. I fully expect to have to prove that I haven't lost my killer instinct. Having a robot fight for me might be acceptable in some circumstances, but this is a matter of spiritual importance."

    "And what happens if Sinestro's down there?"

    "No."

    "It's not like Varnathon has a problem with him, is it? If anything, Sinestro represents both an excellent sales opportunity and advertisement. As long as he pays in cash rather than future favours. And it would let him portray himself as doing something that you started."

    "If Sinestro is down there, then I will kill him myself before dealing with Varnathon and his lies. You need not concern yourself with that."

    "Oh? I thought that having.. Thunderers and people like that use your weapons was a perfectly normal thing for Weaponers to do?"

    "I'm not under any great moral imperative to kill Sinestro myself. I just want to do it for my personal pleasure."

    The image of the hole below us begins to resolve in the dim colours of the Qwardian interior for a few seconds before we both drop out. Kalmin begins slowing his descent at one, while I allow myself to continue to fall.

    Two, one…

    I hit the ground, my kinetic barrier flaring to life and absorbing all of the force of my impact.

    "Weaponer. You lead, I follow."
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2021
  8. Ngamer11

    Ngamer11 I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    I'm now wondering if we'll finally have Paul interact with the infamous Sinestro. Has he actually heard of the OLC Mr Zoat? If yes, what's his opinion of them?
     
  9. BR549

    BR549 This is filth! FILTH!!

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    Your biggest mistake when dealing with Paul is allowing him to start talking.
     
  10. Vaermina

    Vaermina Versed in the lewd.

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    And I think Paragon just convinced him that their people should be more proactive in their attempts to destroy everything...

    Good job Paragon...
     
  11. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    Yes, Dox directly spoke to him early on.

    He's withholding judgement until they've been around a little longer.
     
  12. Darko

    Darko Well worn.

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    'shares'

    Ah, you're learning not to recruit every psychopath you meet.

    You're growing up.

    They may be opposing him just because they want to be in power.

    Kinda like Melmoth and his wife, their only difference in ruling was that the they thought the other shouldn't be leading, but were otherwise the same brand of scumbag.

    Sentence sounds weird.

    Maybe 'You just said that you didn't think your acolyte was quite there'

    Or they're at least much bigger than a minority.

    'of my time'

    I'm guessing he sees them as being petty children who have all the skills of a child breaking their toys?

    Really hoping that if this happens he'll be able to forge a blue ring for Kori.

    'seconds'
     
  13. Idkusername

    Idkusername Versed in the lewd.

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    Thinking on something is a perfectly valid expression.
     
  14. Chojin Patriarch

    Chojin Patriarch Veteran Lurker, Rookie Proofreader

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    Heh. There's such a time when you just need the term Cyclopean for architecture. This would be one of them.

    So easily a couple of kilometres wide. I'm starting to feel acrophobic just thinking about the view.

    Understated as usual, OL. I'm picturing an experience similar to the end of Mass Effect 1, with the walk along the outside of the Citadel's central tower, looking up at Sovereign getting larger and larger as you approach the Council Chambers...

    I suppose if it were night here, there'd be light visible from within the port... And I'm not sure if that's better or worse.

    Classy. Kalmin's fields of Fucks are entirely barren today. What happens when the gravity flips (assuming it does?) :p Will he appear to pop up out of the hole upside down?

    Let's not go with the "Are we there yet?" Routine either. I suspect this will take a little while at terminal velocity, without Ring assistance.

    Because they assumed she was inferior solely because of her gender, and you found her to be an excellent and inventive creator. I doubt he made her wear the sling bikini and gogo-boots, at any rate.

    And that is a significant question. After all, we know she created the Red Ring the Renegade provided that British Police Detective with Rage Enlightenment...

    Do you want two people like Kalmin around? Egging each other on to new heights of destructive creativity?

    Huh. Sounds like she'd make a good candidate for a new High Weaponer. Just the right mix of principles and mercenary attitude.

    Because the question is probably making Kalmin have all sorts of thoughts about his fellow Weaponer's piety... Not all of them good.

    To be fair, I suspect that window of 'acceptable practice' would be fairly wide outside of the Qwa-matter thing. But, set off someone's religious values, and that's a big old modifier.

    Let's hope he's not thinking 'Fuck, how many of these fucks am I going to have to kill before I find someone I think devout enough?'

    Or the true believers just aren't being vocal enough about matters. After all, if Varnathon would kill anyone he thinks is being seditious... (Within the limit of his ability to kill, anyway.) And how many of the hardliners prefer to just get on with the great work of designing weapons rather than politicking and mercantilism?

    Oh, gods, did you just convince Kalmin to organise a more devout leadership? Keeping in mind the omnicidal nature of their religion...

    Well, You're here and you can fix this. Let's just hope he doesn't get too carried away with things... The last thing the Matter Universe needs is the Thunderers going on a crusade of destruction...

    Ah, I see a point of irritation there. The though of not being the Chosen People really getting to you, Kalmin?

    I suppose it's too much to hope for that he decides maybe the Anti-Monitor isn't worth following and throws aside his former beliefs. But that might be a bit too much... Perhaps OL can convince him to be more moderate at least...

    Well, yes, the port is kilometres deep. :p Of course you've fallen a long way... And yes, I know what he really means.

    Well, there's something to be said for playing dumb. If you're exposed as a Human, you might claim to be his Second? In this culture, that probably extends to serving as Weapons-Caddy and body-disposal among other things...

    :oops: Oooh, trigger warning for Ol' Kalmin...

    It may seem cruel, but the possibility has to be considered. Sinestro would still be scaling up his own Corps at this point, wouldn't he? Or at least making the initials plans based on the Orange Lanterns Corps' success.

    I suspect this has little to do with any of that...

    Thought so. Some people just rub other people the wrong way, sometimes...

    Ah, Qward isn't hollow, so much as two-layered. I'm reminded of that iconic planet (Iskandar, I think?) from Space battleship Yamato there... I wonder how many layers it actually has... Must still be quite a sight, falling out of what is basically a giant cave roof towards distant ground below...

    And I'm picturing you just slamming down like a brick without even bending your knees, rather than doing the usual superhero landing. It would definitely seem more mechanical...

    Hmm... I wonder where Kalmin's doubts will lead him... The Q'ardajin are a bit too powerful for him to destroy them all out of a decision that they've strayed too far, but might we see him commit a few atrocities to set the fire back into their hearts, I wonder... Whatever happens, I foresee Qward being changed considerably by the time he's done...
     
  15. FreeGod

    FreeGod If you see a God on the road fuck it!

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    Paul is always certain. He lacks inner conflict. However that means that he often inspires inner conflict in those he talks to.

    There is a reason that paragon heroes are usually able to redeem most non-card carrying villains within a session. And Paul is more willing then many to spend time with villains without feeling a need for immediate violence.
     
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  16. Darko

    Darko Well worn.

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    Was his field even fertile to begin with?

    Azrael agrees.



    Based on their interaction he found her attire impractical, so it's a safe bet to assume he didn't make her wear it.

    I think she became this in the renegade timeline, and I think Kalmin was killed there.

    We all knew that one day Paul's ability to inspire people to be more proactive would backfire spectacularly.

    It technically already did since he convinced Luthor to be more proactive and inadvertently helped increase his wealth as well as the power of the Light.

    Chojin please answer me this question.

    Do you love Murphy?

    Because you seem to want him to come.

    You really need to break it off with him, it's not healthy to be in such a toxic relationship.

    Moderate is a relative term here.

    The Qwardians basically want to destroy everything so if Paul convinces them to just destroy a galaxy once a century then technically that can be considered as them holding back while still being horrible and evil.
     
  17. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    Thank you, corrected.
    No, that's correct.
    Thank you, corrected.
    Not recruiting them isn't necessarily the good option.
     
  18. Darko

    Darko Well worn.

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  19. WereDragon

    WereDragon Bookwyrm

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    Seems token evil teammate is even eviller than expected.
    Perhaps a newer model would be preferable.

    Somewhat odd they are willing to use something as slow as free fall to descend.
     
  20. Ngamer11

    Ngamer11 I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    How about Paul specifically then? How does Sinestro feel about another upstart from Earth making waves in the Lantern business, specifically by helping start another Corps the way he is probably trying to?

    No matter how true that is, Paul will always get flak for some of his choices of who to recruit. I will admit however, that I kinda hope that Paul does walk away from Qward with at least either one more recruit in Lysis, or a more agreeable Kalmin.
     
  21. Handlewithcare

    Handlewithcare I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    He's going to recruit Varnathon, isn't he?

    Greedy weapons maker/seller fits the OLC MO and would be rather useful against the Reach.

    Also, he probably just radicalised Kalmin and the Qward even more. Helping Varnathon would mitigate that.

    And Kalmin needs to die or reform eventually anyway.
     
  22. Prince Charon

    Prince Charon Just zis guy, you know?

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    Leaving with one Token Evil Teammate and returning with a different one would make for an interesting look.
     
  23. Maxx Crowley

    Maxx Crowley I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    OL....did you just talk a Anti-Monitor fanatic wants to destroy literally everything into a religious revival experience?
     
  24. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    Sinestro is beginning to suspect that there's something very odd about Earth.
     
  25. Chaoswind

    Chaoswind Lord of nonsense

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    Kalmin dying in combat would be the best outcome. Robo Paul can then resume his final "orders" to serve Lysys in the event of Kalmin death and then leave Qward with her.

    Bonus points if Siniestro kills Kalmin.

    Then again I don't think we are heading that way, but it certainly would be objectively better.
     
  26. Laundromat2.0

    Laundromat2.0 Getting out there.

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    LMAO this is a great point.
     
  27. Someguy Somewhere

    Someguy Somewhere The Critical Fumbler

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    One alternative to recruiting more is kalmin decides to just END the planet here and now in the name of his faith. While he did state it's rather hard to do, he didn't say it was impossible. And if anyone can figure it out it'd be him.
     
  28. PDV

    PDV The Revelation That Uncertainty is Itself a Answer

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    How would that follow?

    Ah yes, the "Rodney From God" approach.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
  29. Darko

    Darko Well worn.

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    I remember him telling Paul that Sinestros death would give him hope and I was hoping that with that he could make a blue ring, maybe as a thank you gift to Paul for his help.
     
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  30. Chaoswind

    Chaoswind Lord of nonsense

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    Not what he said. Paul killing Siniestro was his prerequisite to even attempt to make a new blue lantern/ring as the first one was done as a challenge to his skills (can I do this). He would still have to find the raw hope elsewhere. He can probably get some from the Coluans at least currently, but once the spike of hope wanes off their civilization Paul would have to go elsewhere.

    Speaking off

    Mr Zoat shouldn't the Guardians Sayd and Ganthed (sp) have started with their blue lantern corps?

    They probably got reports about Alan current arrangement, so it would make sense for them to up the time table of their blue lantern corps in some way, I mean I expect Paul actions to have some effect on the Guardians, I mean they should also have a few green lanterns investigating the indigo corps too.


    I mean they should be smart enough to know all these lantern corps being started in such a short time frame (for them) and the anti monitor armor fragment being found are the prelude to something bigger and they ought to be more active less they are caught unaware.
     
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