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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Discussion in 'Creative Writing' started by Mr Zoat, Jan 27, 2019.

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  1. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    I don't believe that last thing was demonstrated. I read a story where Grogar claimed that a pony wouldn't be able to become as good at something else as they are at their special talent, and if they weren't that good at their special talent then they'd be terrible at everything. Then you've got Trouble Shoes, who doesn't know what his special talent is and it's doing a Leet; sabotaging his efforts to do anything else with his life.
     
  2. moralrelativity

    moralrelativity Recovering pendant.

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    Thank you!
     
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  3. WereDragon

    WereDragon Bookwyrm

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    1484 words of exposition on the author’s personal fanon.

    Self-contradictory fanon, as a matter of fact:
    These statements cannot all be true. The fact Greyven is presenting them as complementary means that either he is deliberately testing the average Pony’s ability to see logical inconsistency for some obscure reason or (far more likely, if we are being honest) he is once again lying his arse off for the sole purpose of trolling.
     
  4. Baladar

    Baladar Getting sticky.

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    The question I was wondering to was “What happens if Glimmer stole Renegade’s Mark?” then “What if he lures Real Graven there and steals his Mark?”
     
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  5. Agumentic

    Agumentic Know what you're doing yet?

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    Their God nature makes that pretty much impossible. Altering New Gods through magic is really hard.
     
  6. Jirachi

    Jirachi I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    I'm confused - it seems less like he's arguing that it's useless - in that he's saying that getting an associated cutie mark accelerates talent learning in the field, but adds a (very difficult to exploit) vulnerability, which...
    Honestly seems like basically a worthwhile trade in most circumstances?
     
  7. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    In the first sentence he was referring to the initial appearance of the cutie mark.

    If a person claimed that humans have two eyes, the existence of specific instances of humans who have less than that doesn't prove that the general statement isn't true.
    Assuming that's all it's doing and the same result can't be achieved in a different way, yes.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2021
  8. Enochi

    Enochi Know what you're doing yet?

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    Eh. The cutie pox is a magical malady that emulates cutie marks. Starlights 'equality' spell suppresses cutie marks. (You can see in the episode the magic mark flares when a pony tries to use their talent)
     
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  9. WereDragon

    WereDragon Bookwyrm

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    The exact same can be said of the Awakening process. On initial application it does nothing. Even over the long term it doesn’t actually grants anything, just enhances what is already there.
     
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  10. Pez

    Pez Spaceman

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    Says who? When connected to a DC-verse, where there are literally New Gods, who eventually achieve Domains, I see some parallels. Renegade just talked about how everypony is borh with an ability (or domain). The fact that Renegade's cutie mark is tied to his Conquest domain, fuels my theory. Ponies don't get their mark until their brain is able to conceptualize their own connection to their ability (domain) - what the mark looks like is irrelevant. When they get that illness, they seemingly magically gain other domains, and when the illness is cured, they then lose those domains. And despite being born with a domain, which pony's feel instinctually, Renegade's theory is that if they lost their cutie marks after getting them, they would then lose their ability (domain).

    There are certainly power gaps between the New Gods (depending on which lore you're going by, ones from New Genesis are better than their Apokoliptian counterparts, if only barely), but if we still assume them all the same, there is a power gap between Desaad and Vundabar to Kanto and Mantis, and the latter to Orion and Kalabak, and again the latter to High Father and Darkseid.

    I see much the same with ponies. I could accept the argument that when they have both wings AND a horn they achieve godhood, but looking at the parallels, the argument could be made they are all just minor gods.

    In context with this story, though, I'd say that Renegade's work on making gods probably proves my theory false. I'm sure pregodhood!Artemis would have just been a Pegasus or something, and current!Artemis is a Alicorn (I think she was, at least).
     
  11. Darko

    Darko Well worn.

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    Seeing as when Sunset came to Earth she was just a human I guess your theory of them being gods is wrong.

    It would be more accurate to say that they're just an oddly talented species rather than divine in a minor way.
     
  12. Stsword

    Stsword I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    Yes, they are biologically magical, which is obvious in that what type of magic one can learn is determined by what they are.

    Unicorns are innately telekinetic.

    Pegasi can learn cloud wrangling and weather control.

    And Earth ponies have earth pony magic.

    To use DC terms, they are the equivalent of magical metahumans. Although they first used that term in Blue Beetle, that after the Spectre killed most of the Lords of Order and Chaos, people with magical bloodlines suddenly found their talents re-awakened after generations of dormancy.

    So as BB Jaime dealt with a magical metahuman gang, and post flashpoint I think the local mob boss of El Paso made a School for Magically Gifted Youngsters.

    Most magic users in DC are effectively like dnd wizards- it's just a skill they learned. Some people though have innate magical abilities regardless of their knowledge of magic, though.

    Raven of the Titans is probably the most famous example, at least originally. Her empathy was her cambion power as Trigon's daughter, but she was also taught magic by her adopted people.

    DC later seemingly retconned that by having Raven's mother show up and giving her empathy powers like her daughter's that were taught to her by the people of Azaroth. Although I suppose one could give a "no prize" style explanation by saying that the people of Azaroth decided to emulate Raven's empathy with thier own magical knowledge.

    So since the ponies are innately magical, and that cutie marks include such magical talents as raising the sun or raising the moon and going all dreamwalker, I honestly don't see the need beyond "It's magic, I ain't haveta explain shit!" as an explanation.

    By what criteria is it so weird that a magical species with magical talents might grow a magical brand that represents talent(s)?

    Gravy might as well go to a zoo and give a lecture about the sinister reason platypuses have duck bills.
     
  13. hkim

    hkim Getting sticky.

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    The more common term is fanfic and if this is surprising to you, you must be new here, Mr. Brony.
     
  14. Pinklestia

    Pinklestia Experienced.

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    Actually I think his problem was that he keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

    Go into a rodeo, ruin it for being there, rinse and repeat. Is not until he changed things that he actually realized his talent and stopped causing trouble.
     
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  15. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    He went to a rodeo and did something innocuous like watching it, his cutie mark causes him to knock something over which messes up everyone else's act. He stays home, his cutie mark causes him to knock down his own shelves. It's not that he's good at clowning, it's that he is compelled to clown with no option not to.
     
  16. Threadmarks: Onslaught (supplementary, Renegade Option)
    Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    23rd August 2012
    20:08 GMT -7


    A completely calm purple pegasus mare with a raven cutie mark glares at me as the majority of attendees stampede for the exit. Those who aren't rolling around the floor hoofing at their haunches in a frantic attempt to remove their haunch parasite.

    "We hope that you are pleased with yourself."

    "Ah, it's fine." I raise my right forehoof and make a dismissive gesture. "I knew this could happen and so I put a load of drones near the exit. They'll dart everyone with ketamine and then drag them off to a spare room. No one will get more than mildly trampled."

    An orange-pelted stallion with a magnifying glass cutie mark jerks his head up.

    "DART ME NOW! DART ME NOW! I DON'T WANT-!"

    Three darts appear in his flesh.

    "Ahhhrrrrr…"

    He collapses, twitching slightly, tongue hanging out of his mouth.

    "Okay, I didn't think it would be… Quite this bad."

    I glance over to where Sunset is.. holding a feed bag over Twilight's-. That's not a feed bag.

    Um.

    "None of these weak-hearts are supposed to be soldiers, right?"

    The mare glows for a moment, then Luna regains her normal form. "We shall find out on the morn, when they fail their blood tests and are pilloried for it."

    "Heh. Sunset, is Twilight still functioning?"



    "Sun-?"

    "I'm not talking to you right now."

    "I liked it."

    Huh? Oh. One of the audience members near the back didn't flee. That's refreshing. Purple with blue stripe mane and tail, lilac pelt and… Equals symbol cutie mark.

    "I mean, you're obviously right about cutie marks being evil."

    "I didn't say evil. Evil requires moral awareness and intent. I have no evidence that it isn't a purely automatic process. A tapeworm doesn't infect someone because it wants to cause them gastrointestinal discomfort, that's just a side effect of it living."

    She smiles, hopping out of her seat and walking-. Stepping over the ennuing ponies in the walkway and walking towards the stage.

    "So what do you suggest that we do about them?"

    "Research. Ponydom needs to properly understand the process by which it occurs before we can make firm decisions. Sunset's-"

    "Still not talking to you."

    "-innovations, combined with the superior artifice from our side of the mirror should make it easier, though naturally getting informed consent from appropriate foals and their primary caregivers could be tricky." I shake my mane. "Ah, I'm sorry. If the audience has…"

    The last mobile pony desperately crawls over the lintel and is picked up by a drone.

    "Absented itself, I suppose that we can do a more intimate talk. I'm Grayven, obviously. Who are you?"

    "I'm Starlight Glimmer and I've never met anyone else who felt this way about cutie marks before. Wait." She frowns. "What was that about a mirror?"

    "A mirror to a parallel universe where the sophont species don't have a cutie mark equivalent. They also use far less magic and have instead developed a far greater understanding of science and technology. It's useful, because it lets you experience a completely different set of social assumptions."

    She stops walking and blinks as she takes on board the new information.

    "Oh. You mean like how griffons and diamond dogs don't have anything like a cutie mark."

    "Yes. Only a lot more successful than them. It's understandable that a pony would look at Griffonstone or one of the diamond dogs' caves and not feel that there's a lot to learn from them. A people who have supersonic flying machines and non-magical teleportation are a little more notable."

    She nods, then continues to the front-.

    "Oh. Princess Luna."

    "Greetings, Our subject. It pleases Us that thou art able to stomach Our beau's dilberry-flavoured waffle-whaffle better than most of Our subjects."

    "I think he made his point perfectly well. And I think that he's right that learning about how cutie marks appear is the first step in learning how to stop them!"

    Luna looks at Miss Glimmer for a moment, then swings her head back in my direction.

    "Corruptor of youth. We should make you drink hemlock."

    "Excuse me." Miss Glimmer.. actually walks into Luna's personal space. I haven't seen a pony do that to one of the senior princesses before. "I'm perfectly capable of reaching that conclusion for myself. I'm just surprised to meet someone else who has. Don't dismiss me."

    Luna winds her neck in, blinking in surprise. But she recovers a moment later.

    "We are curious, Our subject. What hast inspired thou to this belief?"

    "Cutie marks make ponies fundamentally unequal. The moment you get one, the whole course of your life is laid out and whatever plans you had suddenly don't matter. They divide pony society into groups who literally can't understand each other when they talk about their jobs, and… For most of them, it wouldn't even occur to them that it was a problem."

    "We do not think it is that simple. Our cutie mark is the moon, yet We are a princess regnant."

    Miss Glimmer grimaces. "Oh, don't get me started on that."

    Luna raises her eyebrows. "Wouldst thou care to explain?"

    "You went crazy, vanished for a thousand years after trying to kill everything on the planet, then Princess Celestia decides to make you co-ruler because that's how it was a thousand years ago despite your complete lack of relevant skills and manifest psychological instability."

    Twilight stops lowering her breathing bag and puts it back up over her muzzle again.

    "Alicorns are the most unequal of all ponies. You get the abilities of all three races when everyone else doesn't and everyone bows and scrapes to you whether you're actually doing a good job or not. I want a society where everypony is equal: no cutie marks, no alicorns and no princesses."

    "Okay." I jump-. Yes! Stuck the landing! Down off the stage and lay a restraining left forehoof on Luna's shoulder. "Let's just unpack that a little. Firstly, you seem to be equivalencing special talents and cutie marks. Now, I thought that we'd agreed that the two weren't the same?"

    "Ponies stop trying other things once they get their marks. But-. Yes, okay, I suppose that I'm complaining about a symptom. No special talents, then."

    I nod. "Okay. Plenty of species manage to maintain complex societies without them, though you do understand that it will take years -possibly decades- more to train ponies to perform complex jobs if they no longer have any intuition into the field? The society on the other side of the mirror trains doctors for about three times as long, and they start later."

    "It's worth it to give everypony the same opportunity."

    "And you realise that the pony you just ranted at has a job not related to her cutie mark, just like her elder sister?"

    "Celestia changed the entire way Equestria's government worked on a whim to give her sister a job ahead of ponies with knowledge or experience. That's blatant nepotism."

    "Okay." Ooooh, and from the look I just got from Luna I know I'm going to be paying for that later. "But as I understand it, your preferred solution is what we might call 'levelling down'. Removing all talents from everypony to level the playing field. Or not having alicorns at all."

    "Yes. It's the only way to create an equal society."

    "No it's not. Cutie Pox demonstrates that the cutie mark system can give a pony new marks, several at a time. Why not focus on manipulating that?"

    She blinks. "How?"

    "Give every talent to everypony. Or if that's not possible, network them all and let everypony share in everypony else's special talent. And if there being different tribes is a problem, just make everypony an alicorn and remove that difference. Level everyone up to the best position, rather than just take things away. Wouldn't that be better?"
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2021
  17. Idkusername

    Idkusername Versed in the lewd.

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    How many people actually saw Sunset’s apotheosis? I don’t remember. Did the event have a public audience?
     
  18. Vice Xarno

    Vice Xarno I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    Honestly what Grayven suggests is what I had a problem with Starlights plan, she was making everyone else worse, when she could have instead tried to make everyone BETTER, let's be honest the Town was cruddy as a town, if anything broke no one would be a good enough architect to fix anything, and the food was awful.
     
  19. w34v3r

    w34v3r Versed in the lewd.

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    Yeah, you go in expecting ponies and get a Harrison Bergeron reference. Gave me the shivers.

    Always level the playing field upwards.
     
  20. Darko

    Darko Well worn.

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    maybe 'on the floor'

    Your ability to think of the consequence of your actions is not well developed at all.

    Even if they were I think they can be excused after having their world view shattered.

    There's some of that intelligence we've been told she has.

    Well unless you count New Gods and their Domains.

    Most of them have, but a few prefer a magic touch.

    Few people can stomach his dilberry-flavoured waffle-whaffle.

    ...

    I can't believe I just used those words...

    This is not your day Twilight.
     
  21. theaceoffire

    theaceoffire I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    Oh my God you're going to turn them into NASCAR ponies, covered in cutie marks as if they're advertisements.
     
  22. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    No, I think that's fine.
     
  23. Sockmonkey

    Sockmonkey Not too sore, are you?

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    If physically damaging the mark doesn't remove the talent, then it's not a point of vulnerability.
    Cutie pox does not prove that the physical mark creates a talent as the results are equally consistent with cutie pox granting a talent, and the mark acting as an indicator by adjusting it's display accordingly.
     
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  24. Darko

    Darko Well worn.

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    Magically harming the Mark probably will lead to a loss of the talent.

    If you try to cut the mark with an ordinary knife then maybe the talent won't be gone, but if you harm it with a magic knife then it can be removed.

    So the marks are still a point of vulnerability, just of the magical kind.
     
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  25. Queshire

    Queshire Not too sore, are you?

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    There was a shory lived manga series I read once where people could slap stickers on themselves to instantly download new skills. One example there was a granny slapping on a skateboarding sticker and instantly shredding.

    ALL THE CUTIEMARKS sounds like just asking for trouble, but swapping as needed sounds like it has potential. I just wonder if there's a risk from say, giving yourself a weightlifting mark when you're a couch potato that's never exercised a day in your life.

    I mean, they're cartoon horses so I don't expect an actual risk, but in theory.
     
  26. Chojin Patriarch

    Chojin Patriarch Veteran Lurker

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    I suspect he rather is, the giant troll that he is. Though I must say, that latter reaction seems to be a bit extreme. But then, people that scared aren't known for rationality...

    For the laymen: Ketamine. In this context, it's seen as much safer for small animals (such as dogs, cats.. and Ponies) than stronger chemicals.

    Well, you asked for it, you got it.

    "So many pretty colours..." Because in small doses, Ketamine is also a Narcotic, producing a disassociative state. Or, to put it simply, he's gonna be tripping balls before naptime.

    Because of course she's panicking. After all... What if she was wrong about something? :p

    Heh. :rolleyes: Hey, can't blame them for being curious.

    ...Oh, that's a loud silence.

    Yep, she is not happy about this. Guess he didn't run it past her first... Or maybe he did and she didn't approve then either.

    Awwww, shit. Speak of the devil (in my comments yesterday) and she appears! Well, not a Devil-devil, but she goes on to do some bad stuff. Heck, going by the cutie mark, she's already started.

    And those still conscious in the background begin trying even harder to remove their marks...

    Oh, dear. Grayven doesn't actually know about her, does he, not having watched that far into the show?

    "Love you too, sweetie."

    That's going to be a lot of sore heads in the morning. Worse than the 'Baked Bads' incident...

    ...And now I find myself wondering what she'd look like Earth-side. :eek: Oh, hey! Her Wiki page there even has a pic...

    Hmm... Wonder if she'd be interested in a trip...

    Yes, bit of a bias there, culturally. Not uncommon, really.

    Oh, geez. You can hear the veiled venom in her voice.

    ...Yeah, that's probably not the best tack to take, even with Grayven's lecture.

    He'd probably find it kind of minty. New God regeneration and Venom-buster toughness would probably overcome the toxicity of it, after all.

    Yes, that should be a warning sign Starlight.. ain't quite right in the head, by Pony standards.

    Oof, there's some anger there. Couldn't find anything about it in a quick read, but I'm guessing she didn't get her own mark for some time...

    I'm sure she will, at length... Let's try to keep it short, though?

    That's... Quite the understatement. And pretty damn rude to say it to her face, as hardy as her ego is...

    Progress! Grayven didn't fall flat on his barrel this time! Now, let's watch him work on putting his hoof in his mouth.

    And while Equestrians do live for a decent time, I don't think they want to spend that much time studying... Well, except Twilight and her bookish ilk.

    :confused: ...Okay, yes, she's not wrong... But still, rude.

    Sort of the inverse of "If everyone's super, then no-one will be." But Grayven has other options, does he not?

    Heh. She never thought of anything like this, did she? Her disharmonious jealousy gives her the desire to drag everyone down...

    ...While Grayven would always prefer to drag them up to a better standard. Twilight, hope you're paying attention!

    And that idea... Might defuse more than a few problems Starlight causes down the line... :p Grayven, unknowingly playing the part of Fixfic protagonist as usual. Still, I have to wonder about the impact of that plan. Can the planet's thaumic sphere cope with an entire race of Alicorns? Can Equestrian culture deal with the massive shift in power dynamics? Will the transformation breed true, or will the next generation need to undergo the same treatment? So. Many. Questions...


    Missing Quotation Mark.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2021
  27. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    She's hardly the only one.
    Flurry Heart suggests 'yes'. What's more of a concern is how long alicorn mares remain fertile.
    Thank you, corrected.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2021
  28. l---erddad---l

    l---erddad---l Wait, google can see this?

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    Oersonally I would assume that's more being a point of vulnerability in that in order to strengthen a talent you need to make a connection to it that if improperly handled could damage that talent rather than the intent being to damage it in the first place.

    Kind of like adding a prosthetic exoskeletal arm that is connected to your arm through threading it in to basically act like a second layer of skin: it might make you stronger, but if you rip it out without care than you will damage your arm.
     
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  29. Queshire

    Queshire Not too sore, are you?

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    Starlight Glimmer here makes me think of this video;


    I'm glad Gravy's offering a potential solution instead of just righteous face punching.
     
  30. Darko

    Darko Well worn.

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    Give her a break, will you.

    She just found out that a piece of their society may be extremely dangerous and even lethal.

    Now if only he'd learn to not put his hoof in his mouth.
     
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