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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Discussion in 'Creative Writing' started by Mr Zoat, Jan 27, 2019.

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  1. Whenever Possible

    Whenever Possible Versed in the lewd.

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    Since we're getting a better look at Olympian internal affairs, I would love to know if the Mycenaen mythos of the Olympians has any connection to the Olympians in WTR. Was Aphrodite actually Ishtar before she joined the pantheon? Or is the a Cat lord situation where the changed dreams from the Mycenaeans to the Hellenes retroactively changed the gods? Did the Myceneans not have the same myths in that world as irl, because the gods actually existed and could communicate with their worshippers? Is there a separate pantheon with similar names tied to Greece that has basically faded out of existence as a result of the bronze age collapse? I must know.

    I ask here specifically because, to the best of my knowledge, the existence of the myth of Dread Persephone predates the existence of Hades as a myth.
     
  2. Threadmarks: Regnancy (part 15)
    Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    30th October 2012
    06:10 GMT +3


    "So, your mother spoke to me."

    Zagreus nods, awkwardly. "I imagine that she spoke to you about a divorce."

    "Yes, she did. I want to ask you how you feel about it."

    He shrugs unhappily. "I don't remember how old I was when I realised that… My parents' relationship wasn't right. It was a long time before Father had his revelation about how he could make something of Erebos. Mother… She wasn't ever cold towards me, or to Macaria or Melinoë. But Father spent a lot of time… Away from where she brought us up."

    "I was mostly wondering about their relationship now."

    "Father hopes that she could get interested in the gardens the awakened shades have created."

    "Is she?"

    "She.. was, a little. She just left whenever Father was there, and… Since he was justifiably proud of what his people had achieved with his aid and he wanted to share it with her, he was always there in the hope that she'd suddenly come around."

    "Zagreus, I'm being asked to make a decision about something I know very little about. Is there..? Do you think, any chance that your mother-."

    "No. Honestly, I… Think that Father should have divorced her centuries ago. At this point they're just making one another miserable."

    "Has your mother given any indication as to what she would look for in a husband if she were unattached?"

    "Ah-. No. That… The Gods of Olympus don't have no-fault divorce. If one party wrongs the other, things get settled in the wronged party's favour. She might have ended up being down here full time if she'd.. done anything-."

    "No, no, I meant, in theory. I'm trying to work out whether or not she might have accepted your father as her husband if they'd had a better introduction."

    "Do.. you.. have a time machine?"

    "No, and that wouldn't work anyway. I changed the way time travel works so that it generates parallel timelines if you change anything significant. I was thinking, what would happen if we dosed them with the waters of the Lethe?"

    "The whole.. point of the Lethe is to erase memories prior to rebirth. They would be mental infants. I.. don't.. think that's a good solution."

    "How about a reduced dose?"

    "What, exactly, are you trying to do?"

    "Ideally, I'd want to remove every memory she had of interacting with him, and let him woo her from a clean slate. Obviously, she would have to agree to that in order for it to happen."

    "She would forget Melinoë and Macaria. And me."

    "That's why I'm hoping that it's possible to narrow the effect. Hecate's people have been working with it."

    "They were making it into normal water, not anything else."

    "But that still required them to understand how it works. And if they don't know how to do it, we could ask Mnemosyne and Metis to chip in."

    "You're still talking about erasing thousands of years worth of memories."

    "What is Persephone's contribution to human civilisation?"

    "She increases plant vitality and fertility during spring."

    "But she isn't the reason for it. Plants would still grow without her."

    His expression hardens. "I don't appreciate you implying that my mother has wasted her life."

    "Normally I'd say that if the person doing it was happy then they weren't wasting it even if they didn't help anyone else. But from the sounds of things she isn't."

    He gestures towards the orchard with his right hand. "Do you think that Erebos would be this verdant if Father wasn’t trying to impress her?"

    "I'm not talking about rewriting history, I'm talking about rewriting-. Honestly, yes, because he was trying to create the most perfect kingdom ever having been influenced by Enlightenment European ideas, which would probably have included leisure gardens, but we're getting off the point. An objective valuation of Persephone's life isn't relevant. The fact that she's not happy and wants a change is."

    He hesitates for a moment.

    "Yes."

    "Do you have a better idea? Because if you do I'll be extremely happy to consider it."

    "I just don't think that their relationship can be fixed."

    "Do you know how to convince your father of that fact?"

    "I think he knows. I think-. He.. must."

    "Just get him to say it, then I can talk to Hephaestaean and we can get the divorce formalised. Off you go."

    Zagreus's doesn't move. After a few seconds, his face starts to fall.

    "'Failure is simply the opportunity to begin again, this time more intelligently.'"

    "Yep. He loves her, despite her never returning that affection. He has done for millennia, even during his worse times. He isn't going to change now, because there isn't any.. further level of rejection she would go to. What could have changed today that might make him rethink?"

    "Nothing, curse you."

    "What are you cursing me for? My personal life is very simple."

    "What do you want me to do?"

    "Talk to your parents about what's happening, and ask what they'd be willing to consider regarding extreme measures at marriage counselling. This isn't going away and there's no point in putting it off any further."

    "And what will you do?"

    "I'm going to talk to Hecate and Company about what can be achieved with the water of the Lethe. And reassure her about the rehabilitation of the Titans and a dozen other things. I suggest talking to your mother first, as she'll want the reassurance that something is actually happening."

    "I agree. I will speak with you tomorrow."
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2022
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  3. boo600

    boo600 Welp

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    So, this is going better than I thought... but why does Zagreus curse him? *blinking confusion*
     
  4. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    "of interacting"

    And this honestly feels like a stupid idea.

    Assuming she wants to have her mind messed with.

    Granted, like I said in a previous post, if she wants this to happen then it can honestly be more like a tragedy similar to someone using drugs or a lobotomy to deal with their pain.

    The most positive way I can see this going is Hades realizing how much his wife hates being near him that she'd be willing to erase her own memories, then he'd agree to a divorce.

    "done so"

    "worst"

    "going to"
     
  5. DonLyn

    DonLyn Getting out there.

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    Because OL made him aware of something he does not want be true and was refusing to acknowledge even to himself.
     
  6. B00ki5h

    B00ki5h Verified: Oddball, Lurker, and Dabbler

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    Then talk to Hera goddess of marriage, divine counseling should be in her wheelhouse.
     
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  7. NightmareWarden

    NightmareWarden I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    Extreme:
    1. Of a place, the most remote, farthest or outermost.
    2. In the greatest or highest degree; intense.
    3. Excessive, or far beyond the norm.quotations
    4. Drastic, or of great severity.
    5. Of sports, difficult or dangerous; performed in a hazardous environment.
    Hephaestus’ decision to take the red pill was extreme. Athena tipped the vote decisively. Persephone may be willing to take an extreme option if her children strongly support it. But Paul lacks the insight into Persephone to lead her down the path to that decision.

    How might Persephone feel, think, or act if someone close to her asked “If you get what you think of as an ideal divorce from Hades, what happens next? Who will you be and what will you want?”
    I… It is hard to imagine the tangled feeling in her, the depth of her unhappiness. Will it be her new cage after a divorce?
     
  8. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    Thank you, corrected.
    I think that these are correct.
     
  9. Whenever Possible

    Whenever Possible Versed in the lewd.

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    This line being just an off-hand comment is so very Paul.

    Nearly any person who heard that line would almost immediately go "falloutholdupmeme.jpg" And he's just pushing past that to go all "Hey, let's try to use magic river water to erase several thousand years of emotional trauma intrinsic to Persephone's marriage and life so that we don't cause political problems for the omnissiah, so I can get back to looking for John Constantine."
     
  10. Nervaqus987

    Nervaqus987 Experienced.

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    "And when I'm done with that, I'm going to track down John Constantine and beat him unconscious with the nearest blunt object. Because I know he's behind my suddenly extremely full schedule."
     
  11. Splinterface

    Splinterface Getting sticky.

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    This is fucked up. I would hate, with vitriolic passion, anyone who fucking memory wiped me just so I could “get off to good start” with someone who kidnapped me. This brings up two problems; 1) How does Paul think in any way Persephone is going to go for this, or 2) is he going to do this without consent? This seems especially heinous because of what Paul has just done recently. Imagine if after Diana turned Zeus down, everyone just started going “hey, how about we just memorywipe her and Zeus and see if they get along better”. I also don’t know where Paul got the idea that they would even possibly be better if they got off to a good start, which is very bad given what he’s gonna try and do. Persephone was forced to be married to Hades for centuries and he loves her. Great. That’s on Hades and in no way entitles Hades for a second go around or justify doing this to Persephone.

    all of this is not even touching the fact that we are who we are because of our memories, and Persephones life has been pretty much defined by this, so they’d have to remove/heavily censor thousands of years of memories, which at that point you’ve got pretty much a different person, and is also kinda murder.

    sorry if I seem touchy about this, but I’m touchy regarding the continuation of self/consciousness and memories role in that.
     
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  12. hance1986

    hance1986 A pitiful excuse for a man.

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    to
     
  13. AmericanNumbers

    AmericanNumbers Know what you're doing yet?

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    And Paul wonders why Gods treat him with fear and respect. Dropping: "I changed a basic function of reality " in a conversation like it's nothing. LOL.
     
  14. Prince Charon

    Prince Charon Just zis guy, you know?

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    While I agree that Hades was not the rapist in this setting, I would not call it perpetratorless. Zeus was the perpetrator of the trauma that she experienced, even though he did not have sex with her.

    (As for whether we should call the trauma that Persephone experienced 'rape,' that's a mater of semantics and legalism. Most people will call it rape because that's the nearest equivalent without worrying about the exact dictionary or legal definitions of the words being used, while others insist on using the 'correct' definitions in an argument with people who are using the colloquial or ideological ones.)
     
  15. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    Yeah.

    I don't think he thought all that much about it.

    Despite his literal ability to read people, Paul is pretty terrible at actually reading people.

    Or he's hoping that she's desperate enough to get rid of the fear and pain that she'd be willing to erase her own mind.

    He told Zegreus they'll need her consent, so there's that.
     
  16. Splinterface

    Splinterface Getting sticky.

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    well that’s something I guess :( Bar is currently on the floor
     
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  17. ZzzSlothzzZ

    ZzzSlothzzZ Know what you're doing yet?

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    (Plays "Where's Wally" OP)
    Where where where where's Wally Constantine?
     
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  18. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    Try the basement.
     
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  19. Ct613hulu

    Ct613hulu Experienced.

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    If they are going to explore mental alteration than wouldn't it be far simpler to make Hades forgot whatever made him become so obsessed with Persephone? This seems like a far more just course of action as it doesn't place the burden of solving the situation solely with Persephone. The only thing keeping Persephone in her present state of suffering is Hades unwillingness to place the happiness of the women he claims to love and the safety of his subjects above his personal obsession. If a sacrifice is needed to resolve this situation than he should be the one to give it.

    I would also assume that this described memory erasure essentially involves a near-complete personality erasure of the current version of Persephone. She has spent thousands of years living in fear of Hades and hating being married to him. Removing these memories and the feelings connected to them would almost certainly result in the formulation with a radically different personality.

    It seems as if this memory erasure plan is roughly the same as a husband pressuring their wife into killing themselves and then using her spare parts to create a new woman who he intends to manipulate into becoming his perfect bride. There could conceivably be a utilitarian argument that this plan is the best course of action for humanity and the Greek Pantheon. That doesn't stop it from being deeply creepy and incredibly unfair for Persephone.

    I think that it is also disturbing to consider what will happen if the new version of Persephone is unwilling to pursue a relationship with Hades. I can easily imagine her rejecting Hades even without a personal recollection of how he mistreated her for thousands of years. It is not as if she ever showed any sign of being interested in Hades or only refrained from developing an emotional connection due to their early misunderstanding. There is absolutely nothing to indicate that they would be a good match and considerable evidence against it given how Hades was unable to make any headway after thousands of years of constant effort. Would Hades be willing to finally let her go free if this new version of Persephone rejects him or would she be forced to go through the entire process again until she gives up and submits to even more severe mental alterations?
     
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  20. timeForced

    timeForced Getting some practice in, huh?

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    But...the obvious answer is to convince Hades that if he truly loves her, he needs to stop making her miserable and accept her request for a divorce? No one has the right to force another into eternal bondage.

    And if Hades so hates the concept that he reacts...ill-favoravly, does he truly deserve to be God if the Dead? Him being petty and non-cooperative would be one thing, but through all of this Zoat has hung a pretty heavy storm cloud of "if the God if the Dead gets bent out of shape over one woman refusing to marry him, all of the souls of the dead go to hell, or invade the living world, or some other unspecified disaster.". But Paul literally just dealt with that exact problem, only fractionally as bad, by deposing Zeus.

    There's some real double think there
     
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  21. Mastigos2

    Mastigos2 I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    I feel like even a god should be giving OL a few strange looks for casually dropping "oh I changed the fundamental mechanics of how time travel works"
     
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  22. Wivk

    Wivk Getting sticky.

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    Normally getting cursed isnt a big deal, but i would be wary about getting cursed by actual gods in person, especially the ones from vindictive pantheons.
     
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  23. Prince Charon

    Prince Charon Just zis guy, you know?

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    Paul is a utilitarian who has gone a bit far from the sort of mindset most of the readers are used to dealing with, so his decisions and attitudes are going to be strange in places. As someone with an interest in psychology (not a degree, just an interest), studying his behavior is part of why I still read this fic.

    Case in point: Of the two (Hades and Persephone), which do you think Paul and Hephaestean get more utility out of staying the same? OL being a utilitarian, that's the one he's going to judge as it being less ethical to change the personality of. (I don't like the phrasing of this paragraph, but I'm blanking on how to make it more clear and accurate.)
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2022
  24. Ngamer11

    Ngamer11 Versed in the lewd.

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    I feel like this will lead to another lecture from Menalippe.
     
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  25. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    Hades hasn't hurt Paul or tried to hurt anyone Paul cares about, so he doesn't have the same extreme reaction he had like when he chose to get rid of Zeus.
     
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  26. Chojin Patriarch

    Chojin Patriarch Veteran Lurker

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    And as (I assume) the eldest child, he's probably got the most insight into their relationship and whether it can be salvaged, or if a scorched-earth approach is better. Or perhaps have some alternative angle to look at the 'problem' from.

    Which was kind of expected. Besides the traditional distance a Hellenic man would have in terms of child-rearing, Hades would be well aware of how she felt...

    To be fair, that is an impressive feat. She would be well aware of the difficulty in cultivation here.

    Well, that didn't go as planned, then. And I can't help imagine this playing out with the chibi designs of Overly Sarcastic Productions, and it makes it even more heartbreaking... :(

    It's that bad, then, if even the children agree on that. I wonder what the daughters would have to say?

    Because of the insult that would imply to Zeus, of course. Big Dick Sparky getting his way again.

    No, that wouldn't help. As far as OL knows, the mechanics of time wouldn't allow that kind of easy tweaking. Never mind the paradox involved.

    Not if OL has his way. I mean, he just said 'he' changed the way time works. Surprised Zagreus didn't give him more than a 'is he serious?' pause. Or is he just assuming OL is using dramatic hyperbole?

    Well... Remember Hecate's little water park? :D

    Also, would she consider that anyway? If she has any thoughts on the nature of, well, herself... She's defined herself for thousands of years as 'Hades' reluctant wife'. Can she even imagine what she might be without that weight having driven her?

    But there's still the byproducts. That stuff can't just have disappeared, after all.

    Mostly memories she's unhappy about, but yes. Would she want to take the risk of waking up as a whole other person? Who knows, besides her?

    ...In the Hellenic regions, at least. And really, That can't really take up that much of her time... Maybe if she follows Hera's example, she could become a gardening show host? :p

    No, no, I'm sure he just means that without her, the Hellenes might have had more difficulty in farming the region...

    ...Maybe? The problem is, we only keep hearing about Hades' part in things. Maybe if he actually tried to press Persephone about this, he'd really find out how she feels...

    Okay, now you're getting somewhere, OL. Stop thinking of this as a problem to be solved, and start thinking of it as 'What does Persephone want? Will getting it make her happy?'

    If he did, he would have tried it centuries ago, though. Unless he was afraid of Zeus' response.

    ...How could he not know?

    Usually it's the Gods giving out impossible quests to Mortals, not the other way around...

    Now, let's not all get lost in discussing what they could have done better, we've beaten that dead horse into glue.

    I know it hurts to have to acknowledge that, but watch your words.

    And OL has another moment of 'Well, finally! If people would just ask that first, we could save so much time and effort!'

    He's going to do Science! to magic things.

    At least someone is going to ask her about her opinion on things. Or Hecate will tell OL 'No, it doesn't work that way, you stupid man.' and he'll have to find some other mad plan.

    Honestly, at this point... Erasing her memory wouldn't fix this. Or at least, not hers alone. What would the outcome be, I wonder, if both Persephone and Hades undergoing this - still theoretical, mind - process, and see if they can both start with a fresh slate in their existence? o_O But then, what happens to their personalities? Both have them have been shaped by this issue over millennia. Would they still be the people they are now if it had never happened? Food for thought, and for discussion?
     
  27. Doccer

    Doccer I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    I agree. This seems icky.
    If it was say, forgeting because she just can't have a relationship with anyone else because this whole thing has soured the experience to try even if she wants to. I'd get it. Still egh.
    But this only to go back? It seems icky and keeping it conditional on her say so is the only thing keeping it remotely viable.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2022
  28. Handlewithcare

    Handlewithcare Versed in the lewd.

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    Agreed, this seems messed up.

    My hope at this point is that Hades learns of this plan, realises how messed up it is and that's what he finally needs to decide to let her go.

    Any other outcome is just wrong.

    It's a bad ending for Hades, but the other endings are worse.
     
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  29. Senevri

    Senevri Know what you're doing yet?

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    It's really only fucked up without consent. Forgetting isn't inherently a bad thing. Especially if it can help you get over trauma. That being said there are several ways how this could go wrong.
    Now, I'm sure the memory gods can back up the memory just in case.

    Most fun option? Paul gets a Lethe dose and we have an episode of semi-retro-Paul shenanigans.
     
  30. DrThoth

    DrThoth I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    I may not approve of the Lethe-water plan for reasons already mentioned by others (though I guess I'm glad to have 'called it', but I do think developing specialized Lethe-water would be a useful weapon to add to Paragon's arsenal, so I hope that gets expanded upon. It would be nice to see Mnemosyne pitching in and also thanking Paragon for rescuing her daughter Calliope (I forget if she was imprisoned but the Muses are usually her kids with Zeus, so I don't believe so?).

    Hephaestaean may value Hades's work ethic and initiative as being in line with his vision for the Olympians going forward, but ultimately Hades is an administrator. Actual death is facilitated by Thanatos, after all, and if mass production becomes a thing Hephaestaean could create a ton of robot duplicate bodies to project his consciousness to and help administrate the underworld or whatever (like the Superman robot from the Silver Age). Paragon not wanting to sour his up till now positive relationship with Hades is understandable from his personal orange-tinged and fairly utilitarian perspective, but like in most things I hope that other characters step up more to show that ambition and the drive to act aren't just the province of SI characters (Hera most prominently, Ghi'ata or Dame Carol, Aphrodite, maybe an ambitious god of love who wants to get in good with the new boss- I think there's specifically a god of unrequited love out there as part of the Erotes). If Paragon worked at getting the 3 kids on his side, that'll probably sway Hades's mind more, but I can appreciate from a character perspective that that's not what he'll pursue as his first path. He might talk to Diana about it first, I feel like she should have secured a firm, more generalized promise from him about matters related to overthrowing/killing deities and mystical figures after everything that just went down.

    Maybe Hades will volunteer to either get does with the Lethe-water instead, as others have mentioned, or have his love supernaturally deadened/removed by whatever god can possibly do that. Though it would be really nice to see talking and less extreme measures being implemented first. Like Hephaestus said before his ascension, he wasn't talking to Paragon because he wanted measured advice. Though it's not like Paragon is averse to talking, he just usually also wants to carry the big stick, as it were.
     
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