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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Discussion in 'Creative Writing' started by Mr Zoat, Jan 27, 2019.

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  1. dw7thdoctor

    dw7thdoctor Getting sticky.

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    What I don't get is if they gave them the most murderous people in their prisons or just the people in their prisons how they'd get Todd Rice? From the way they were acting, I'd thought he had his episode of scizo and was back in society.
     
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  2. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    I haven't reached a firm decision, but I'm leaning toward 'no'.
    Schizophrenia isn't something you have an episode of and then it clears up. He was in a secure facility while he was being treated.
     
  3. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    Well you helped him get his shit together, so he's now returning the favor.

    I wonder if he'll undo the spell.

    He did throw that crystal, so maybe.

    He may know what he wants, but that doesn't mean that he knows what the outcome will be like, but now he does.
     
  4. Darko

    Darko Connoisseur.

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    I think the know good Dominator in the comics was one from the n52 that worked for Starfire in liberating slaves.

    And even the ones that were probably weren't monsters.

    Chojin, stop asking dumb questions.
     
  5. Stsword

    Stsword Versed in the lewd.

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    Off the top of my head- The Electric Warriors, a post flashpoint prequel to Legion of Superheroes but a sequel to Kammandi the Last Boy on Earth has a Dominator who is part of the good guys, gladiators who were responsible for settling conflicts between planets who decided to go Spartacus.

    The Blasters, a group of supers whose meta powers were activated by Dominator experimentation, had a Dominator. He named himself Gunther.

    Looking it up on comicvine, there's also a member of WW's space pirate crew, and a member of the United Planet's sponsored team the United Order. So I guess the Dominators are now members of the United Planets.
     
  6. Lone Courier 6

    Lone Courier 6 Wanderer of threads

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    One of the big problems with making Superheroes more ‘efficient’ is that it can become a very slippery road to this JSI or Injustice’s Regime.

    Super Heroes are not meant to be soldiers as a whole, they’re meant to be icons.

    Paul wants to improve them without actually having a real understanding of how he wants to do that.

    Here we have him confronted with a Super Organization that follows much of the advice he would have given, and he hates the end result, though perhaps that’s only because it’s an Alt Alan Scott telling him about it.

    Mr Zoat would Paul still be so bothered by it if the one in charge and telling him this was someone he had no emotional connection to?
     
  7. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    It wouldn't hit him quite so hard, but he wouldn't be happy about it.
     
  8. Stsword

    Stsword Versed in the lewd.

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    Oh and get this- The JSI is not even the worst "Justice Society never disbanded timeline."

    In DC Comics Two Thousand Morrow tried to cheat by sending modern technology to himself in the past and the JSA ends up with it, cue an alternate present with the Justice Squadron, made with genetic science. LEGO genetics to give people abilities I think.

    Green Lantern/Hawkmen with emerald gauntlets and wings of green fire.

    Dr Fates/Spectres

    Flashes/Atoms

    Dr Midnight/Starmen complete with cosmic staves.

    Hourmen/Sandmen

    Armies of them.

    They took over the Earth and their crimes included destroying Atlantis, so yeah apparently they went full on fascist.
     
  9. xSieg

    xSieg Making the rounds.

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    Funny how Paul still came back to the Orange Enlightenment even after being soul-sucked by Qwamatter. While it's an ideal mindstate for his plans of eventually reenacting the Empire of Mankind, it's clearly not enough to make him completely inhuman in thinking, considering his whole episode with Wombworld and now him second-guessing his want the ends, want the means philosophy.

    I'm guessing it limits him from using a White Ring too, because it colours his every emotion in orange tint, but that isn't extremely relevant as we will probably never see a WL onscreen
     
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  10. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    Technically, you'll see one for about a paragraph.
     
  11. AmericanNumbers

    AmericanNumbers Not too sore, are you?

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    ParagonPaul being enlightened means he's clear about his thoughts and motivations and is not about self recriminations or doubt.
    It does not mean he's infallible. Hell, his enlightened state means he'll do things which normal people wouldn't do simply because of social pressure. He's a little too much "ends justifies the means". Which is the point John's trying to get across.

    As a counter example? Renegade Paul has way more limits on his actions thru peers and trusted confidantes.
     
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  12. PDV

    PDV Revelation That Uncertainty Is Itself An Answer

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  13. jonasquinn

    jonasquinn I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    I may be being an idiot but I really don’t understand what OL learned here, Commander Scott’s actions are completely reasonable and OL already takes every reasonable precaution he can to not have to make decisions like that while still being able to operate at the scale he does

    if anything I feel like his takeaway from this should be “Commander Scott was right, it’s just a shame that he didn’t have the resources needed to go save people sooner”
     
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  14. Windona

    Windona Beetle Queen of Crackshipping

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    They were only in that situation because Earth didn't want the GLC to help, or make any diplomatic overtures to potential allies. And as a result, Commander Scott gave up a bunch of people including his own son to be used and experimented on.

    Ends justify the Means is great, until you use it as an excuse to justify even the most monstrous means or as an excuse to not figure out a better way.
     
  15. jonasquinn

    jonasquinn I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    I don’t think that’s right? I’m pretty sure that the JLI’s enmity with the GLC comes from them not helping with the Dominator invasion not some weird pre-existing dislike

    Especially since the JLI wouldn’t have had the authority to reject GLC help prior to the invasion and Commander Scott is pragmatic enough to accept their help in a dire situation even if he did have a pre-existing dislike of them. Plus when the hell were they supposed to contact and negotiate with potential allies when their planet is under attack and the Dominators had total control over space travel?

    Even if what you say was the case that reflects absolutely nothing on OL who actively goes out of his way to gather as much information as he can, hear dissenting opinions, listen to the professionals and gather allies
     
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  16. Deadring

    Deadring Screee!

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    All the other stuff aside, I'm pretty sure the JSI doesn't like the GLC because they claim to have the authority to police Earth. I didn't look too hard, but the only reference I found to why they don't like the green boys is because "They don't get this isn't their planet". Not something Interceptor would say if they were mad about not being helped. Also, rather antagonistic, for people who could have saved them from being enslaved.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2022
  17. jonasquinn

    jonasquinn I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    The issue is if that is the case then Commander Scott loses all legitimacy and becomes an even worse mirror to Paul because he let his pettiness get in the way of doing something that very well could have saved humanity without the sacrifice he made whereas If OL were in an equivalent situation he wouldn’t hesitate to work with the Light or Truggs, his nemesis, before making any irreversible choices like that

    Either this whole thing is an even worse comparison than I originally thought or it has nothing to do with the GLC

    I also just realised I’ve been saying JLI when they’re the Justice Society International
     
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  18. Vaermina

    Vaermina Well worn.

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    Just because something is reasonable to do, doesn't mean it's the best thing you can do.

    This was Constantine showing LePaul that, in the only way that would actually get through to him. IE taking him to a world where exactly what he wanted was done, and making him take a hard look at the end results of that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2022
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  19. jonasquinn

    jonasquinn I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    But what about this is something OL wanted? Sure the JSI has some things that he believes are good and the League should adapt but that doesn’t mean he agrees with the organisation as a whole and it arose from a wildly different situation than the League so any problems it has have no bearing on the League itself
     
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  20. RoninSword

    RoninSword Sky God

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    So off top question, having only just binge read and caught up, how similar should I take the Renegade timeline is to the paragon (The Caligula club, or The Shade being possesed in renegade as opposed to Paragon?).
     
  21. jonasquinn

    jonasquinn I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    It’s probably best to consider them two completely separate things in my opinion, while renegade started as just a couple of differences here and there they’ve grown so separate that it’s impossible to tell what they may have butterflied in or out of existence
     
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  22. Stsword

    Stsword Versed in the lewd.

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    The story just addressed that, did you miss it?

     
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  23. jonasquinn

    jonasquinn I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    But that’s my point, what is OL meant to have learned from this and why is it effecting him so much? Commander Scott is at absolute best a very half assed mirror of him and he is already taking every step he can to ensure he’s making good decisions

    What is the lesson here?
     
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  24. Windona

    Windona Beetle Queen of Crackshipping

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    Having a good apparatus to reduce error matters little if you don't actually take their advice into account and think you automatically know best and have considered everything they can possibly add. That the utilitarian choice isn't always the right choice (what's that line about good guys not being a shirt you wear but having to not do certain things?). That being able to rationalize terrible things, and even having a grain of truth to that, doesn't always a hero make.

    We see a lot of this with how Paul mentions how some of the stuff the JSI does is stuff he's been trying to convince people to implement. How he tends to do things off on his own in grand enough ways that the League has a special code for him. This is supposed to be a cosmic 'check yourself before you wreck yourself' thing.
     
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  25. BR549

    BR549 This is filth! FILTH!!

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    It was said early on. It's Aligned (Transformers: Prime) with some elements taken from the IDW2005 comics continuity.
     
  26. Threadmarks: Feasibility Study (part 23)
    Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

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    22nd November 2012
    16:13 GMT -5


    It's hard to.. picture a million anything.

    I remember Cabin Pressure, a comedy on BBC Radio 4, where a pilot challenges a flight attendant to even picture a hundred of anything. He actually manages it, by mentally putting a series of small objects on various parts of the plane that existed in a known quantity. The attendant was the fool of the piece, and it was the only time I remember him doing something clever.

    But a million? Without my rings I couldn't even hold a million blades of grass in my head. After the first few dozen it's just a sheet of green.

    And now I'm looking down at a million graves I just dug.

    Green Lantern Holt has been extremely sensible in his priorities. Food, water, basic sanitation. Stabilise one area and then move on. Everything else is just too broken down to do much about, even with the aid of the few remaining functional superheroes.

    "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me."

    Emergency cremations were the order of the day for the dead in the cities, but whole areas of the countryside are still filled with rotting corpses.

    A grim business, but I wouldn't wish it on anyone else, and the last thing this place needs is a disease epidemic on top of everything else.

    We lost more than a million to the Sheeda, of course. But the bodies were mostly rendered down. I didn't have to personally inter all of them.

    But what can I even say? Not only did I not know any of these people, I don't know anything about them. In some cases I don’t even know their names, and it's pretty hard to hide something like that from a power ring. I certainly don't know personal information.

    "Surprised you're trying to do an oration. Their souls have moved on months ago, even after something like this."

    "Just in case. And.. because it's right."

    John standing there nonchalantly while other people do the work is a fairly common occurrence. The difference now is that he does it in the air, and the wind doesn't affect his cigarette.

    "So."

    "So." He nods. "You're not particularly pleased with me, I'm guessing. Had to be done, though."

    "I wouldn't go that far. But I.. do appreciate that the wake-up call was… Useful. And probably timely."

    "Blimey." He raises his eyebrows in mock surprise. "People don’t usually take it this well when I pull stuff like this."

    "I'm too dangerous to reject good advice because my feelings are hurt. I will admit that I'm a little surprised that you're back to Constantining this quickly."

    "Messing with my mates' heads is what I'm good at. And let's not forget that you haven't exactly been easy on mine, either."

    "I'd say 'you volunteered' and 'it was necessary', but that's… Missing the point. Is what I'm assuming I'm supposed to take away from this."

    "Honestly, could have gone either way."

    "What, I could have decided 'this is great'?" He nods. "They didn't even give me their SOP bible."

    John looks confused for a moment. "Never heard of a bible called-."

    "Standard Operating Procedure bible. It's a set of defined processes any organisation should have written down so people can look up what they're supposed to be doing and how. I… Had been intending to go through it and see how much could be used for the Justice League. Which I can't do now and I'm not sure I'd even want to."

    "Probably for the best."

    "Any other moral lessons you're planning on springing on me?"

    "Not right now. See how you go."

    "How was The Kingdom of Albion?"

    "Morgana's got everything she ever wanted. Far as I could tell, she's doing an alright job. Place is probably doomed, though."

    "Why, did she marry their you?"

    "No, but she used one of me ancestors to father her daughter. The first Constantine, far as I could tell."

    "That would be… Kon-Sten-Tyn? Didn't he sacrifice his sons for power?"

    "Just the ones with goddess blood in them. He had plenty of others, and daughters too. And how the fuck do you know about him?"

    "Would you believe me if I told you that Jason Blood mentioned him?"

    "No. Not when you put it like that."

    I check no one else is around.

    "I read about it in a comic book. He was talking about his life with Merlin's severed head."

    John frowns in puzzlement. "How does that work, then?"

    "The head? Magic, presumably?"

    "You told me you came from a comic."

    I shake my head. "No I didn't. I came to a comic. Which is here."

    He blinks, then appears to brush it off. "You could have been a bit clearer about that. I thought you meant you came from a comic."

    "John, that's daft. How would that even work?"

    We hold each others gaze for about three seconds.

    "Hahahahaha!" / "Hahahahaha!"

    John bows his head, still chuckling. I wipe away my tears. Darn. That's-. That's totally inappropriate.

    "Alright, let's-. Can you make sure that they've all passed on as peacefully as possible?"

    "Yeah, mate. I'll-."

    There's a grey flash, and then Interceptor is floating next to us. She looks at me, then John, then the rows of graves beneath us.

    "I thought you were on holiday."

    "I felt a sudden need to engage in uncomplicated good works. Finding.. that out…"

    "Yeah."

    "What happened here?"

    "A kryptonian got possessed by a demon and destroyed civilisation. So-" I take a spell eater out of subspace and toss it to her. "-just in case."

    "Thanks. You've been here before?"

    "I was part of the group that stopped him. Of course, that doesn't undo the damage. Come on. Let's go check in with Lantern Holt and see where he wants us next."
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2022
  27. DrThoth

    DrThoth I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    So how is this experience going to change Paragon's MO from now on? Will he try to collaborate more with people instead of doing things himself? (though I feel like he does still try to do that).
     
  28. Ngamer11

    Ngamer11 Experienced.

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    That should be 'she'. Also, I'm surprised Morgana would do something like that. Unless, of course, she assumes that her bloodline can trump the misfortune of being a Laughing Magician.

    Glad to finally have that misconception fixed. Also, it's nice that they can just laugh it off.

    They opened a portal from JSI Earth to Earth 666? How many other members of the JSI are taking a tour of the place? Also, what number will you use for JSI Earth, if any?
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2022
  29. DrThoth

    DrThoth I trust you know where the happy button is?

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    We did already know Morgaine did this from the Renegade storyline back when he took down Britain's government. Though I suppose this is confirmation that all/most Morgaines across dimensions have done this.
     
  30. AR760

    AR760 Experienced.

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    The only thing I struggle with is that...what would the alternative option be? Sure, the situation as written was and is horrifying, but the only other alternative was the extinction of humanity. Or all but that.

    Sure, I see there is supposed to be a moral lesson here, but when the chips were down, I have a hard time buying it because the alternative was and is infinitely worse. Are we to take away that the JSI should have taken up a position refusing to engage with the Dominators, and consequently doom the rest of the species due to wanting to morally grandstand?

    Because that's what I feel we're being led to feel, but it doesn't make sense to me. If taking a moral position leads to the extinction of the rest of humanity, how moral could you call it? How sound could you consider it?

    And defaulting to the alleged ideological purity superheroes are meant to embody seems to ignore the fact that they were the only ones at the time with the power and influence to make that call. If they didn't, that "ideological purity" and icon nature of the Heroes would have gotten the rest of humanity swiftly killed by all accounts.

    In this entire metaphorical come to jesus, OL seemed to completely ignore that dimension of it. He failed to consider alternative possibilities. He even seemed to recognize what the JSI did was really the only viable option left to play. So given all of that, and his seeming lack of alternatives, the dissonance seems off to me, on top of everything else I mentioned.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2022
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