With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Darko · 2026-10-15T06:31:01+0100

Mr Zoat said:
been a monarch ever since. But, seriously. Monarchy."

"a monarchy"

Mr Zoat said:
Superman's probably our best option."

"I'm sure Batman would be hurt to hear you say that."

He sighs. "I'm not sure he would."

Bruce probably knows that Clark is better than him in certain ways.

Mr Zoat said:
control. I think I even saw.. 'Cheshire' a couple of times. And he's overseeing everything, so… Yeah."

Looks like Paula is keeping busy.

GigaVanguard · 2026-10-15T06:43:42+0100

An interesting conversation. I do like these calmer chapters where we get thought-provoking dialogues between Paul and DC characters.

NameOrdane · 2026-10-15T06:46:29+0100

Mr Zoat said:
Batgirl

Did I miss Barbara becoming Batgirl, or is this her first mention?

Graeme · 2026-10-15T06:54:20+0100

Mr Zoat said:
12th October 2013
18:21 GMT -5

"Yes, and he was so unpopular that we've been a monarch ever since. But, seriously. Monarchy."

been a monarchy
or
had a monarch

RichardWhereat · 2026-10-15T06:55:09+0100

Mr Zoat said:
"And what does the League's U.N. mandate say about what the League's roll is in situations like this?"

Role

Chojin Patriarch · 2026-10-15T07:14:03+0100

Mr Zoat said:
12th October 2013
18:21 GMT -5

I turn to Richard as the Gotham police handcuff the people being held in my constructs.

"So..?"

"How do you feel about monarchy?"

Ah, feeling out the concept with people less likely to push one way or the other. Seriously, Robin is pretty chill for everything he's seen and done in his career. surprisingly well-adjusted despite it all...

"Can't say I've ever really thought about it."

"Really? Not with Queen Hippolyta, or Teth Adom, or Aquaman?"

None of those nations are cultures he interacts with every day. Nor are their rulers all that familiar to him, even Arthur.

"Those all have democratic legislatures."

"Yes?"

"How much power does a monarch have to have to really count? When was the last time the king or queen of Britain refused to sign a Bill?"

That's a good point. Nations with a hereditary ruler usually have bureaucracies in place to manage day-to-day operations and legislature. And there are often rules about what part the monarch can play in their running.

"Seventeen Oh Eight. Queen Anne vetoed the Scottish Militia Act. She was worried that they'd back a French invasion."

"Well, you grew up in Britain. How would you feel about it if Queen Elizabeth vetoed a Bill?"

A power the English monarch does have, despite the sometimes fraught relationship the Crown has had with Parliament over the years.

"I remember having rather mixed feelings when the House of Lords blocked a particularly stupid Bill the government were trying to pass… I don't actually remember what it was now. And… The Lords doesn't actually have many hereditary peers in it these days. But it was more 'Why are we having to rely on these people to stop this?' rather than 'How dare these appointees block the will of the Commons?'. Particularly given that the Bill wasn't in their manifesto."

Checks and balances.

"Ah. Is that important?"

"Ah… You know how Britain doesn't have a constitution, and in theory any government can upend our entire civilisation on the basis of a simple majority?"

"I knew the first part." He frowns. "Can they really do that?"

Apparently so? But that's something of a nuclear option.

"They need a majority in the Commons and the Lords, but-" I nod. "-yes. And one Prime Minister a few decades ago managed to pass a law which says that if the Lords block a Bill three times and the Commons approve it a fourth time, they don't need the Lords' approval."

The two houses have had something of an antagonistic relationship at times.

"Huh."

"The problem is that they usually run out of time to pass the Bill if that happens… But yes, that can happen. It just doesn't, because… If you're winning anyway, why flip the board and risk it all?"

Wise words, and likely why they never exercise those powers.

"Because that gets you more power, duh."

"Ask how well that went for Cromwell."

Oliver Cromwell? Eh, it could have been better.

"Didn't he rule until his death?"

"Yes, and he was so unpopular that we've been a monarchy ever since. But, seriously. Monarchy."

The man did have opinions about a great many things and made everyone recognise those opinions...

"I can't see us doing it, Oh El. But if I was gunna pick a king, Superman's probably our best option."

"I'm sure Batman would be hurt to hear you say that."

He's smart enough to understand that sometimes you pick the right man for the job, not the one you like most.

He sighs. "I'm not sure he would."

"Problem?"

Ah, been a while since they've talked? outside of work, anyway.

"He's prioritising. Between me, Batwoman, Batgirl and Artemis, Gotham's pretty much under control. I think I even saw.. 'Cheshire' a couple of times. And he's overseeing everything, so… Yeah."

"Ah." Hm. "I do like that he's prioritising properly, but I appreciate that you miss him. But isn't he effectively king anyway?"

Heh. Gotham's got a whole family of bats these days, eh?

He takes a slow breath. "…yeah. And I was thinking about this whole situation, and what you said to Green Arrow, and I think… Superman would organise the people who are supposed to be fixing things, and help them when they needed it. Batman's… He's building parallel structures, and doing the fixing with them. He hasn't said anything, but I'm starting to think this is what he wants the new normal to be."

It's a subtle difference of method, yes. It sounds like Bats is making preparations for the next time something like this happens, rather than propping up the easily-broken existing systems.

"Ah."

He regards me quizzically. "What do you think?"

"I… I'm not really… Where Batman's concerned…"

Ah, still feeling the shame of what he did...

"You gotta stop beating yourself up about that." I frown. "Not because you shouldn't be beat up about it, but we kinda need your ruthless planning powers right now, and you can go back to beating yourself up after."

"Oh."

Admittedly, he's not wrong. OL is very good at shifting focus and maintaining focus where others would tire.

"And we're not making Superman king." One of the Gotham police officers looks around with a frown, then appears to decide that he didn't hear anything. "Not saying it wouldn't be cool, but there's no way he'd go for it."

"Uncle Sam was in favour of it."

Ah, the things you overhear around superheroes, eh?

Richard frowns at me. "Really?"

"Well, Caesar, anyway. He thinks that the system won't work unless someone makes it work, and that having an alternate system around will just encourage people to switch their loyalty to that. You know… Kahndaq doesn't really have political parties?"

So placing him or someone of similar charisma as a dictator? At least you know Supes would give the seat up when he was no longer needed.

"Oh? So how's it work?"

"Politicians don't so much get elected as pass a public approval check. They all support Adom having supreme power-. Well, almost all. All the ones who actually get elected. And the assumption is that unless they do something stupid they'll just stay in office. They're more like civil servants, really."

It helps that most of them are aware that Adom would not tolerate any abuse of the offices they hold for personal enrichment. Too much risk of attracting his ire.

"And that wasn't what he wanted."

"Yeah. Though he's.. not unhappy with it, because he's never lived in a democracy and doesn't really value it. But okay. We're going to keep going as we are, the American government will either learn to do its job properly or it won't, and the League will either go back to its corner or it won't. That's not what I'm.. thinking about right now."

Sink or swim, eh? I guess one way or another, things will get sorted out.

"Really? Because I am."

"Well, good, but… Boss Smiley."

Don't even say his name, he's probably listening now.

"Do you think he got to Uncle Sam?"

I stare at him, and slowly begin to smile. He looks puzzled for a moment, and then rolls his eyes.

Yeah, it does sound kind of foolish, but Sam was compromised during the Anti-Life, remember? Overthrown and confined while his darker half stepped in?

"You know what I mean."

"No. But I think he's getting to us. When you get right down to it, what is corruption?"

A very complex idea with many graduated levels. But yes, people lining their own pockets from political office does tend to be one of the most visible forms.

"Using a position of power to do what you want, not what you're supposed to do."

"And what does the League's U.N. mandate say about what the League's role is in situations like this?"

"It doesn't.. have one."

In its' defence, I doubt anyone could have seen something like this situation occurring, outside of the sort of 'could never happen' scenarios military planners play with. ...I suspect a lot of those scenarios are taken more seriously in this universe.

"Yeah. I'm not sure that Boss Smiley's just about narcissistic corruption. The League's riding roughshod over the rules it's supposed to be championing while compelling other people to follow them. Does that count? Serious question, because every time I try to quantify Boss Smiley I come up short."

So you're worried he's using all this to what, get his hooks into members of the League? ...Given Batman's recent behaviours, I can't say it sounds implausible.

"And what happens if it does count?"

"I don't know, Robin. I don't know."

You face something like the Justice Lords. Good people taking power for good reasons, only for them to find power corrupts...

It's an insidious fear, but a scarily plausible one. Members of the League being corrupted by the political powers they've gained, possibly for entirely fair reasons. All in the name of doing the right thing, even when people don't want that thing done... And the person doing it will still think they're doing it for a good reason. No wonder OL's ill at ease.

Khettien · 2026-10-15T07:17:13+0100

Mr Zoat said:
Queen Anne voted the Scottish

vetoed, as noted above.

Mr Zoat said:
been a monarch ever since.

monarchy, as noted above.

Mr Zoat said:
was gunna pick a king,

gonna, unless it was intentionally...slang? slang adjacent? Eh, you probably get what I mean.

Thank you for the chapter. And thank you for the story.

KharnTheBrotrayer · 2026-10-15T07:56:01+0100

I wonder if this is the lead up to a devastating one-liner "Would your parents want to live in such a world?" "Your parents would be so proud" "Why don't you put the whole world in a bottle?"

Mr Zoat · 2026-10-15T08:32:41+0100

Idkusername said:
Should be 'vetoed'.

Darko said:
"a monarchy"

RichardWhereat said:
Role

Thank you, corrected.

ticularly given that the Bill wasn't in their

the government's

KharnTheBrotrayer said:
I wonder if this is the lead up to a devastating one-liner "Would your parents want to live in such a world?"

"Maybe, maybe not, but at least they'd have gotten the chance to."

"Your parents would be so proud"

"Thank you."

"Why don't you put the whole world in a bottle?"

"How would that help?"

SpiritualSlacker · 2026-10-15T08:55:38+0100

Mr Zoat said:
"Seventeen Oh Eight. Queen Anne vetoed the Scottish Militia Act. She was worried that they'd back a French invasion."

Sort of ironic, considering what Bonny Prince Charlie did a couple decades later, during the Jacobite Rising.

KharnTheBrotrayer · 2026-10-15T09:13:03+0100

Mr Zoat said:
Thank you, corrected.

the government's

"Maybe, maybe not, but at least they'd have gotten the chance to."

"Thank you."

"How would that help?"

These were mostly used as examples of the types of things that have had serious effects on the person it was used on.

I recall Mainline batman used something similar on Justice Lord Batman

You must be familiar with Red Son and the world in a bottle line so I am assuming you are being intentionally facetious here.

I know this sort of insightful and impactful line will never come from OL not least because he's not nearly charismatic enough nor even close enough to being the right person to say it or even be able to come up with this sort of line. I was mainly just wondering if one of the other characters may end up saying it to Batman.

Agumentic · 2026-10-15T09:42:15+0100

Mr Zoat said:
"No. But I think he's getting to us. When you get right down to it, what is corruption?"

"Using a position of power to do what you want, not what you're supposed to do."

That's an unusual definition. If someone was using a position of power to intentionally undermine an organisation because they disagreed with it, I wouldn't call it corruption.

PeriodicPedant · 2026-10-15T10:21:08+0100

Clell65619 said:
No ~~animals~~ gestation matrix ~~were~~ was ~~harmed~~ used in the ~~creation~~ production of this ~~production~~ Superman.

Certified by Mr. Zoat.

Agumentic said:
That's an unusual definition. If someone was using a position of power to intentionally undermine an organisation because they disagreed with it, I wouldn't call it corruption.

All cats have four legs.
Not everything with four legs is a cat.

Off the cuff, I'd say it's an accurate categorization.

Edit:
Oh, hm.
Actually, no.
Both are subsets of 'abuse/misuse of authority'.
You're right.

boo600 · 2026-10-15T10:43:53+0100

KharnTheBrotrayer said:
You must be familiar with Red Son and the world in a bottle line so I am assuming you are being intentionally facetious here.

There's quotation marks around "how would that help," so I assume that's Yellow!Batman's response. He's not so ideologically weak as to falter at the first sign of opposition, and he has no Brainiac-relevant trauma.

Mr Zoat · 2026-10-15T10:58:40+0100

SpiritualSlacker said:
Sort of ironic, considering what Bonny Prince Charlie did a couple decades later, during the Jacobite Rising.

More like prescient.

KharnTheBrotrayer said:
You must be familiar with Red Son and the world in a bottle line so I am assuming you are being intentionally facetious here.

The 'world in a bottle' line worked on Red Son Superman because he'd spent decades trying to fix the Bottled City of Leningrad and constantly failed as the situation inside got worse and worse. Batman has no equivalent failure to refer to. If anything, he'd regard it as a good thing because he was personally a big chunk of the reason why Gotham has improved as much as it has and he's had the city under as much observation as possible.

Batman, alas, hasn't read Red Son.

I know this sort of insightful and impactful line will never come from OL not least because he's not nearly charismatic enough nor even close enough to being the right person to say it or even be able to come up with this sort of line. I was mainly just wondering if one of the other characters may end up saying it to Batman.

Ironically, Brother Eye. Though... Not in a good way.

KharnTheBrotrayer · 2026-10-15T11:53:45+0100

Mr Zoat said:
The 'world in a bottle' line worked on Red Son Superman because he'd spent decades trying to fix the Bottled City of Leningrad and constantly failed as the situation inside got worse and worse. Batman has no equivalent failure to refer to. If anything, he'd regard it as a good thing because he was personally a big chunk of the reason why Gotham has improved as much as it has and he's had the city under as much observation as possible.

Batman, alas, hasn't read Red Son.

How can you be so obtuse? I am clearly alluding to the idea of a line of dialogue so impactful that it changes the character with it's utterance, Batman is looking like he is attempting to take over the world and is potentially lining up as a Red Son analogue in that he is acting like a global hegemonic dictator and like in Red Son it's because he thinks it's for the good of the world that he takes the reigns.

Does Batman even see a point in time where the world doesn't need Batman?

Mr Zoat · 2026-10-15T12:56:50+0100

KharnTheBrotrayer said:
How can you be so obtuse?

Pretty easily.

I am clearly alluding to the idea of a line of dialogue so impactful that it changes the character with it's utterance, Batman is looking like he is attempting to take over the world and is potentially lining up as a Red Son analogue in that he is acting like a global hegemonic dictator and like in Red Son it's because he thinks it's for the good of the world that he takes the reigns.

There is no line of dialogue that would have that effect, because he's never seen a situation where him being in control has had a negative effect. Which is what I said.

oct9010 · 2026-10-15T13:13:25+0100

Mr Zoat said:
"Well, good, but… Boss Smiley."

"Do you think he got to Uncle Sam?"

I stare at him, and slowly begin to smile. He looks puzzled for a moment, and then rolls his eyes.

"You know what I mean."

I don't get the joke. How else can this be interpreted?

CrazyNoVa · 2026-10-15T13:28:25+0100

Wait a minute, if Boss Smiley gets power from anyone who uses their power to do whatever they want and break the law, wouldn't that mean the Justice League also falls under his power, especially in The League's early days before they got sanctionned by the UN?

I'm just saying, "using a position of power to do what you want, not what you're supposed to do" can also technically be applied to vigilantism, since in the eyes of the law, you're not "supposed" to take the law into your own hands to fight crimes.

Unless you were more talking about the definition from a moral angle instead of a legal one (well, "moral" is still relative from culture to culture and society to society, but still), in which case that's a completely different can of worms.

Steelplaza · 2026-10-15T13:33:23+0100

I try to remember it's just a comic book (fanfiction), it's just a comic book (fanfiction), but the incredibly simplistic take on government starts to grate every time it gets put front and center. WtR keeps pushing this idea that if you had a good ruler who wants to do good things, everyone would be happy with them. That's just not how government works.

Government is about trade-offs and competing interests and different ideas about what is good. You will always be pissing someone off, and frequently it is reasonable that they be pissed off. You will always have people to please to get things done, because no man can rule alone. No, not even if you're a magic immortal demigod, Adom.

The fantasy of a virtuous, competent dictator is not that everyone would love everything that they did. It's that they would have the power to push through unpopular but necessary things (because they are a dictator) and that these unpopular but necessary things would in the end provide a more prosperous state for the population as a whole (because the are virtuous and competent).

Mr Zoat · 2026-10-15T15:04:43+0100

oct9010 said:
I don't get the joke. How else can this be interpreted?

Washington only rebelled because he was annoyed that he was going to be demoted. The SI is implying that the American rebellion itself was a corrupt act, and as such Boss Smiley 'got to' Uncle Sam from the start.

He's mostly joking.

Steelplaza said:
No, not even if you're a magic immortal demigod, Adom.

I'm afraid that you're incorrect there. While it's true that actual people can't handle anything beyond the size of a large village on their own, that restriction doesn't apply to certain types of superhuman.

CrazyNoVa said:
Wait a minute, if Boss Smiley gets power from anyone who uses their power to do whatever they want and break the law, wouldn't that mean the Justice League also falls under his power, especially in The League's early days before they got sanctionned by the UN?

I'm just saying, "using a position of power to do what you want, not what you're supposed to do" can also technically be applied to vigilantism, since in the eyes of the law, you're not "supposed" to take the law into your own hands to fight crimes.

Unless you were more talking about the definition from a moral angle instead of a legal one (well, "moral" is still relative from culture to culture and society to society, but still), in which case that's a completely different can of worms.

No. The SI is assuming that if they openly say 'suck it, the law', then that's nothing to do with Boss Smiley. It might be criminal, but it's not corrupt. The problem is when they say 'yes, we'll totally follow these rules' and then don't.

Agumentic · 2026-10-15T15:17:44+0100

Steelplaza said:
I try to remember it's just a comic book (fanfiction), it's just a comic book (fanfiction), but the incredibly simplistic take on government starts to grate every time it gets put front and center. WtR keeps pushing this idea that if you had a good ruler who wants to do good things, everyone would be happy with them. That's just not how government works.

Leaving aside that we can't really say anything about how superhuman governance would work, nowhere is it said that everyone universally adores Adom. Most everyone support him having supreme power, but that has little to do with personal approval - although I imagine a lot of people do personally approve of his conduct - and a lot more with basic necessity of having superpowered protection after the world suffered global catastrophes twice in two years. There are undoubtedly a lot of argument about how and where should Adom exercise his supreme power.

CrazyNoVa · 2026-10-15T16:46:45+0100

Mr Zoat said:
Washington only rebelled because he was annoyed that he was going to be demoted. The SI is implying that the American rebellion itself was a corrupt act, and as such Boss Smiley 'got to' Uncle Sam from the start.

He's mostly joking.

I'm afraid that you're incorrect there. While it's true that actual people can't handle anything beyond the size of a large village on their own, that restriction doesn't apply to certain types of superhuman.

No. The SI is assuming that if they openly say 'suck it, the law', then that's nothing to do with Boss Smiley. It might be criminal, but it's not corrupt. The problem is when they say 'yes, we'll totally follow these rules' and then don't.

So, double standards and hypocrisy, then? Because if so, wouldn't the fact that they accidentally took over the world technically count, since they always say that they want to let mankind govern its own destiny and that they don't want to rule the world, then?

boo600 · 2026-10-15T17:26:25+0100

Steelplaza said:
I try to remember it's just a comic book (fanfiction), it's just a comic book (fanfiction), but the incredibly simplistic take on government starts to grate every time it gets put front and center. WtR keeps pushing this idea that if you had a good ruler who wants to do good things, everyone would be happy with them. That's just not how government works.

Government is about trade-offs and competing interests and different ideas about what is good. You will always be pissing someone off, and frequently it is reasonable that they be pissed off. You will always have people to please to get things done, because no man can rule alone. No, not even if you're a magic immortal demigod, Adom.

The fantasy of a virtuous, competent dictator is not that everyone would love everything that they did. It's that they would have the power to push through unpopular but necessary things (because they are a dictator) and that these unpopular but necessary things would in the end provide a more prosperous state for the population as a whole (because the are virtuous and competent).

A few things.

Yes, they're not universally liked… but it's DC. It's a world of gods and their worshippers; people who don't like Superman are usually worshippers of Lex Luthor/other competing gods, and even then…

Adom is canonically revered by Khandaq.

Finally, and most importantly: look up Wonderworld. Ruled by a small council of the most powerful superpeople… and it's utopian. The third world.

Given how New Genesis/Apokolips works (some people are Meant To Rule), and how Earth is the Fifth World? And how often Superheroes are just the rulers of their planets, and (as DC is a superhero company) they rule utopian civilizations?

I believe that superfascism may have Source-level support, backed by the metaphysics of the setting and all sapient minds within. It may actually alter probability/minds to enable their Rule, even if they're flying bricks and not hypercompetent calculators. And if it already is altering minds/probability, why not directly make people happier, and also miraculously make things work better when superheroes are in charge?

McGraww · 2026-10-15T17:28:20+0100

Mr Zoat said:
The 'world in a bottle' line worked on Red Son Superman because he'd spent decades trying to fix the Bottled City of Leningrad and constantly failed as the situation inside got worse and worse. Batman has no equivalent failure to refer to. If anything, he'd regard it as a good thing because he was personally a big chunk of the reason why Gotham has improved as much as it has and he's had the city under as much observation as possible.

Yeah the thing with Batman, is that Yellow!Batman is objectively more powerful and more capable than base Batman. In order for a Wham Line to work on Batman, he'd either need to be convinced the immorality of his actions outweighed the good they were otherwise accomplishing (Justice Lords Batman) or that his current mindset and actions were at odds with his stated goals (Red Son Superman).

I don't think it's impossible to Wham Line him, but he's utilitarian enough and Yellow enough that both approaches would be difficult.

Steelplaza said:
You will always have people to please to get things done, because no man can rule alone. No, not even if you're a magic immortal demigod, Adom.

The fantasy of a virtuous, competent dictator is not that everyone would love everything that they did. It's that they would have the power to push through unpopular but necessary things (because they are a dictator) and that these unpopular but necessary things would in the end provide a more prosperous state for the population as a whole (because the are virtuous and competent).

TBH I kind of assumed the politicking had just moved one level down. So all of the flunkies and government workers are still engaging in politics with each other, with factionalism determining who and how they present proposals to Adom.

Also frankly I think the whole "everybody loves Adom thing" is mostly a combination of new-ness and the Anti-Life. Adom overthrew a brutal regime only like, 3-4 years ago. That gratitude is still very recent. I suspect that in oh, 10-15 years, Adom might have been asked to step back and take a purely advisory and protector role. Except Anti-Life happened, so all of his citizens got a front-row seat to what life without him is like, for everyone outside his borders. So that would have massively boosted his support.

Now, personally I think the whole "actually Adom can't ever make mistakes, the Wisdom of the Gods perk means he'll always make the correct policy decisions when given appropriate info by his ministers" is pretty silly. (I mean, look at any myth to see how "wisdom of the gods" typically goes.) You just have to accept Adom is magically supremely wise in the same way Lex Luther is a 12th Level Intellect or some aliens are so absurdly intelligent.

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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Welp

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