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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Do you remember he very specifically was instructed not to tell Delenn what he was planning to do?

But we don't know if he didn't tell her.

Even in real life "divine acts" get investigated before they're officially considered to be such.

The basics of any such investigation is going involve checking local camera recordings, orbiting ship recordings, orbiting station recordings, satellite recordings, and analyzing the building itself with various sensor systems for detectable energy effects.

Also, there are ways of doing that sort of thing in Babylon 5, the two ways realistically recognizable to the show/movie Minbari would be energy based transmutation and nano-tech. The former, from the technomages, and the latter, from the Shadows and their servants

And if they figure out that he did it, then what?

I'm not sure if he really cares about it beyond just paying off a debt to the architect.

Consequences are a thing,

Fortunately for Matthew, the ring makes him resistant to a lot of those.

remember that whole conversation where you decided that he would stealthily do things so he wouldn't have the Minbari coming after him?

And I was proven wrong. I'm not going to make up things to prove how I wasn't wrong.
 
But we don't know if he didn't tell her.
That Delenn approved his travel to Minbar heavily suggests he didn't.

Unlike Mayan, Delenn would understand all the political problems that her giving permission for a Human to alter a landmark on Minbari would cause.

And if they figure out that he did it, then what?

I'm not sure if he really cares about it beyond just paying off a debt to the architect.
Worst case scenario? It could cause the Earth-Minbari war to start back up.
 
Worms (part 11) New
9th October 2013
10:01 GMT -5


Cadbury has lawyers, obviously. But they specialise in commercial law. There's a law firm we use when we need to do something larger, but they don't really do American medical law either, and it would be… Alright, as a sole proprietor, there's literally nothing I can't do with company assets because they're legally my assets, but it would still feel off using them for something not related to the business.

But fortunately, the Justice League has a lawyer. Ah-. I mean, the Justice League has multiple law firms who handle things for them pro bono, on the grounds that doing stuff for the Justice League is just about the best advertising money can't buy, but it has one lawyer who's a member. And if Augustus Freeman can get Xalitan a slap on the wrist after a town got levelled and several American soldiers got medical discharges, he can probably help me out with my problem.

His secretary looks up from her desk. "Mister Freeman will see you now."

I smile at her. "Thank you."

I get up and head for his office. Since he has a secret identity, Arnus has to actually live that identity at least some of the time. Right after the Life Broadcast he didn't bother because there wasn't a lot of call for lawyers, but once Dakota City's government started sort of working again they did actually need lawyers to help reorganise things. We can still call on him for essential purposes, but he's effectively back on normal working hours.

I push open his office door, and he comes over to greet me.

"Orange Lantern."

"Mister Freeman. Thank you for agreeing to meet with me at such short notice."

We shake hands, and he directs me to the seat in front of his desk before retaking his own seat. "You said that your problem relates to your Alzheimer's treatment."

"Yes. Well, sort of. I've encountered a lot of highly advanced technologies during my time on this Earth that should have spread but haven't. For example, did you know that the first cybernetic hand on Earth was created by a man named Ramon Solomano in nineteen thirty nine?"

He raises his eyebrows slightly. "I did not."

He might be telling the truth; I'll have to ask later. Yes, he was obviously in America during that time but it's not like he'd have had any reason to meet a minor Arizonan supervillain.

I nod. "No microchips or vacuum tubes. It relied on piezoelectric reactions to electrical current in the nerves in the stump, which was magnified by an acid battery to move the pistons. Amazing work, for the time. And then you've got zeta tubes, purple healing rays…"

"I recall your speech."

"And then there's my… Device."

"Are you concerned that it will be delayed due to it requiring F.D.A. approval?"

"It… Okay, this is… Weird superhero stuff-" That he knows about, but I'm playing along. "-but there's a certain amount of evidence that the reason why those devices aren't more widely used is the active opposition of a entity called Boss Smiley. We're not exactly sure what he is, but he appears to have the ability to have a small effect on the minds of large populations all at once, and he claims to have been using it to ensure that human civilisation remains within certain controllable bounds. I don't really mind it if the F.D.A. has some paperwork to work through… If they take too long I can just sell it as a personal organiser that helps forgetful people, and if people choose to buy it for people suffering from Alzheimer's… It's like 'massage wands'."

I actually do the air quotes.

"They don't provide a warranty for anything else and places that sell them don't get regulated as sex shops, but everyone knows what people actually do with them."

"I would advise against that."

"But am I legally right? I genuinely don't know."

"Every cybernetic device I know of that is commercially available in the United States has F.D.A. approval. I would not want to argue that your device is an exception."

"But could you?"

"Perhaps. But I feel that if I won it would be due more to the poor state of the F.D.A. rather than my being correct in law."

"Okay, let's… Not do that."

"So what is it that you want?"

I look him in the eye, but the git doesn't even crack a little smile.

"I want to check that it is just a bureaucratic problem, not something exotic. Which means that I actually need a lawyer able to advocate for my work with the relevant committee, or however it works in practice. And preferably one who can deal with unconventional skulduggery."

"I'm afraid that medical law isn't my specialty. Nor is lobbying."

"Alright. Can you recommend someone?"

"Frederick Tuckman is an experienced lobbyist. I am uncertain how familiar he is with the arcane, but his firm also serves as Lex Luthor's defence attorneys."

I nod. "So there's a degree of familiarity there."

"I couldn't possibly comment."

"Are there any alternatives?"

"Almost certainly. But he is the only one I am familiar with."

"Alright, I'll get in touch with him. Thank you-."

"Have you considered a non-legal solution?"

I blink. "Are you allowed to suggest that?"

"You raised the prospect of bypassing the F.D.A.. I am merely suggesting that if you are concerned about a third party interfering with the approval process, you could provide them with a defense against external influences yourself. I believe that you have a device which protects the wearer from magic?"

"Yes, and that… Could work. It couldn't hurt, at least. And… I should talk to the people involved anyway."

And I don't… Think anyone bothered building a planar barrier in Washington. Might not work, but it won't make things worse and it might help.

"Anything else I've overlooked?"

"Have you considered seeking approval for the device in countries other than America?"

"No. At this point, most of my contacts are here. And my understanding is that America's requirements are less strenuous than European ones."

"There is no need to limit yourself to seeking approval in just one country at a time. If you could find partners who could oversee the approval process, you may be able to bring it to the market more rapidly."

"That's a good point." The former High Conciliator should be able to organise things in Britain if nothing else. It would probably be a good idea to talk to her anyway. Maybe there's a market off-world? "I'll make a start once I've booked a meeting with Mister Tuckman. Thank you very much for your help."
 
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...so I was poking through some old chapters. And found an interesting little bit, in relation to the current plotline:

"If you're.. forgetting things a lot, there have been a lot of medical advances in the outside world. And I could attach a quantum wafer in your brain and then you'd never have to worry about forgetting things again."

Hmmm....
 
9th October 2013
10:01 GMT -5


Cadbury has lawyers, obviously. But they specialise on commercial law. There's a law firm we use when we need to do something larger, but they don't really do American medical law either, and it would be… Alright, as a sole proprietor, there's literally nothing I can't do with company assets because they're legally my assets, but it would still feel off using them for something not related to the business.
Yeah, 'law' isn't a monolithic entity, it's dozens of small disciplines loosely grouped by topic. An expert tin one isn't going to be well- skilled in another.


But fortunately, the Justice League has a lawyer. Ah-. I mean, the Justice League has multiple law firms who handle things for them pro bono, on the grounds that doing stuff for the Justice League is just about the best advertising money can't buy, but it has one lawyer who's a member. And if Augustus Freeman can get Xalitan a slap on the wrist after a town got levelled and several American soldiers got medical discharges, he can probably help me out with my problem.
And while it's unlikely he's going to handle the case himself, he can point you to someone who can.

His secretary looks up from her desk. "Mister Freeman will see you now."

I smile at her. "Thank you."
How prosaic. Been a long time since we saw this simple an interaction.

I get up and head for his office. Since he has a secret identity, Arnus has to actually live that identity at least some of the time. Right after the Life Broadcast he didn't bother because there wasn't a lot of call for lawyers, but once Dakota City's government started sort of working again they did actually need lawyers to help reorganise things. We can still call on him for essential purposes, but he's effectively back on normal working hours.
A little bit of comforting normality for at least one League member, at least.

I push open his office door, and he comes over to greet me.

"Orange Lantern."

"Mister Freeman. Thank you for agreeing to meet with me at such short notice."
The tricky part of talking to someone who you know by multiple names: using th right one.

We shake hands, and he directs me to the seat in front of his desk before retaking his own seat. "You said that your problem relates to your Alzheimer's treatment."

"Yes. Well, sort of. I've encountered a lot of highly advanced technologies during my time on this Earth that should have spread but haven't. For example, did you know that the first cybernetic hand on Earth was created by a man named Ramon Solomano in nineteen thirty nine?"
No accounting for supervillain logic...

He raises his eyebrows slightly. "I did not."

He might be telling the truth; I'll have to ask later. Yes, he was obviously in American during that time but it's not like he'd have had any reason to meet a minor Arizonan supervillain.
It's easy to forget how spread out some supervillains can be.

I nod. "No microchips or vacuum tubes. It relied on piezoelectric reactions to electrical current in the nerves in the stump, which was magnified by an acid battery to move the pistons. Amazing work, for the time. And then you've got zeta tubes, purple healing rays…"

"I recall your speech."
So few people seem to care about the content, though.

"And then there's my… Device."

"Are you concerned that it will be delayed due to it requiring F.D.A. approval?"
Just a little, yes...

"It… Okay, this is… Weird superhero stuff-" That he knows about, but I'm playing along. "-but there's a certain amount of evidence that the reason why those devices aren't more widely used is the active opposition of a entity called Boss Smiley. We're not exactly sure what he is, but he appears to have the ability to have a small effect on the minds of large populations all at once, and he claims to have been using it to ensure that human civilisation remains with certain controllable bounds. I don't really mind it if the F.D.A. has some paperwork to work through… If they take too long I can just sell it as a personal organiser that helps forgetful people, and if people choose to buy it for people suffering from Alzheimer's… It's like 'massage wands'."
Yeah, that's it. Stick it to the smiling bastard.

I actually do the air quotes.

"They don't provide a warranty for anything else and places that sell them don't get regulated as sex shops, but everyone knows what people actually do with them."
Indeed, often on video.

"I would advise against that."

"But am I legally right? I genuinely don't know."
Hence his coming to Arnus.

"Every cybernetic device I know of that is commercially available in the United States has F.D.A. approval. I would not want to argue that your device is an exception."

"But could you?"
Putting him in a real difficult spot, OL.

"Perhaps. But I feel that if I won it would be due more to the poor state of the F.D.A. rather than my being correct in law."

"Okay, let's… Not do that."
It would leave OL open to all sorts of legal issues later.

"So what is it that you want?"

I look him in the eye, but the git doesn't even crack a little smile.
Paraphrasing OL's catchphrase at him. Cheeky, Arnus.

"I want to check that it is just a bureaucratic problem, not something exotic. Which means that I actually need a lawyer able to advocate for my work with the relevant committee, or however it works in practice. And preferably one who can deal with unconventional skulduggery."
Not a lot of people who can manage that.

"I'm afraid that medical law isn't my specialty. Nor is lobbying."

"Alright. Can you recommend someone?"

"Frederick Tuckman is an experienced lobbyist. I am uncertain how familiar he is with the arcane, but his firm also serves as Lex Luthor's defence attorneys."
Which means Luthor might get wind of it somehow if he hasn't already.

I nod. "So there's a degree of familiarity there."

"I couldn't possibly comment."
Certainly, Luthor's never been prosecuted successfully for anything criminal.

"Are there any alternatives?"

"Almost certainly. But he is the only one I am familiar with."
In other weds, anyone else would require going in blind.

"Alright, I'll get in touch with him. Thank you-."

"Have you considered a non-legal solution?"

I blink. "Are you allowed to suggest that?"
As a purely hypothetical, maybe.

"You raised the prospect of bypassing the F.D.A.. I am merely suggesting that if you are concerned about a third party interfering with the approval process, you could provide them with a defense against external influences yourself. I believe that you have a device which protects the wearer from magic?"
That overcomplicates thing, but it could work.

"Yes, and that… Could work. It couldn't hurt, at least. And… I should talk to the people involved anyway."

And I don't… Think anyone bothered building a planar barrier in Washington. Might not work, but it won't make things worse and it might help.
Just don't be too obvious about it if you do.

"Anything else I've overlooked?"

"Have you considered seeking approval for the device in countries other than America?"
Ah, there's the rub? Which country?

"No. At this point, most of my contacts are here. And my understanding is that America's requirements are less strenuous than European ones."

"There is no need to limit yourself to seeking approval in just one country at a time. If you could find partners who could oversee the approval process, you may be able tot bring it to the market more rapidly."
And again, it's a matter of trusting them to do what he wants.

"That's a good point." The former High Conciliator should be able to organise things in Britain if nothing else. It would probably be a good idea to talk to her anyway. Maybe there's a market off-world? "I'll make a start once I've booked a meeting with Mister Tuckman. Thank you very much for your help."
At least he has a starting point now

Vexing over the teething troubles, but he'll surely find a way somehow. It's only a matter of time... The smiling bastard can't interfere forever...
(commentary abbreviated due to rampant stomach bug...)🤢
 
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It is nice to see him actively accounting for Smiley, and trying to work past him.

After the initial Angel Invasion, he didn't think about him once until his next encounter with him (which was most of a year), despite the Smileys on the Brainwashing Orbs being entirely unlike King Asmodei's aesthetics, and the clear sign of him being mind-wiped. (With the exception of following Smiley's preferences, until Himon told him to cut it out)

Then, after being dumped in the Heartlands, he didn't seem to think of him as connected to the Angels... despite Johnny Reb clearly stating, "Boy, ah am disappointed. The way Boss Smiley's been carrying on about you, ah thought you'd have me all added up the moment ah stepped down from that there chair."

Confirmation that Smiley was focused on him, in a way that the Brainwashing Orb wouldn't have a reason to make up or know. He was there... and yet, instead of telling the Sivanas that they were fucked with, he commissions Georgia to mostly just investigate how to deal with it, without even trying to hint that a supervillain outright screwed Thaddeus Senior when he went to change the world.

He at least considers him on multiple occasions in the aftermath of the anti-life, and he warns Gammemnae of him (which is something), and makes a construct of his face... which is immediately possessed by Smiley directly. And of course, there's the Adventure from Zor's home in Slaughter Swamp, and the moment he finally 'fought' him because of that idiot drug magician.

It's consistently shown that Smiley has a terrifying spying/telepresence ability set, capable of hearing his name and other notaritikons - and any preceding or following conversations. As well as being capable of possessing his idols (smiley faces) on a whim. So I understand being cautious, and referring to him as obliquely and indirectly as possible... but even as busy as he is, for dealing with his End-Boss, Paul's been very distracted. It leaves the plot threads dangling, and lacks the build-up of his preparations for Nabu.

So seeing him actively accounting for the guy who keeps dumping him in parallel worlds and fucking with his main goal, and perhaps even having a plot related to dealing with his influence, is amazing. It says to me that one of the main plots is back on the menu developing! And who knows? Perhaps, now that they have a speedster cult, we'll once again get to see the Light.
 
This fanfic has dipped its toe into the question of "why doesn't super-technology spread" many times over the many, many years it's been going. I'd venture to say it's one of the most long-running arcs in the entire series. The SI, Paul, he's tried to tackle it. We see Freeman reference a famous public speech the SI made early on. There have been other efforts, but Paul has always been hampered by the fact that he doesn't really understand the mechanism. Boss Smiley has claimed responsibility (though Smiley is a liar), but it's not clear what Smiley is or what means he might be using. Is Smiley mind controlling people? Well which people and when in the process does he mind control them? What form does his influence take? Or is he using some kind of probability alteration or something more subtle than mind control?

@boo600 complains that Paul has never pursued this to the endpoint, but I sort of understand why. It's always been a problem that doesn't have to be solved "right now". It's a heat wave rather than a fire. I mean, the Light is fucking around with Apokolips; that's a bigger threat to humanity than teleporters getting hung up in approval testing.

But maybe at long last we're going to see some real progress made on this. Paul has a "super technology" that could do a lot of good and which people will want really badly. He can try to push it through the normal channels and observe carefully what happens. Paul arrived in this world long after Venus Sivana's business plans for her husband's inventions got mysteriously rejected for no obvious reason. This time he can watch in person and see exactly what happens. Truthfully if Boss Smiley was smart he might back off and let this one through, but even that would be informative in a way. It would demonstrate that this is something Smiley has to actively do and has discretion over, as opposed to some kind of grand subtle "curse" that works on its own.

Looking forward to seeing where this one goes, Zoat.
 
Rule 8 warning. We don't care what you think about it, do not bring it up here. That's a sure way to derail the thread.
'A heat wave rather than a fire' hits like a fucking truck with the way global warming has been dealt with, and with the results. (And that shouldn't be political; it's literally just a set of facts. We'd past +1C, we're not going back, and there's been a ton of interference and backsliding in all sorts of countries recently)
 
This fanfic has dipped its toe into the question of "why doesn't super-technology spread" many times over the many, many years it's been going. I'd venture to say it's one of the most long-running arcs in the entire series. The SI, Paul, he's tried to tackle it. We see Freeman reference a famous public speech the SI made early on. There have been other efforts, but Paul has always been hampered by the fact that he doesn't really understand the mechanism. Boss Smiley has claimed responsibility (though Smiley is a liar), but it's not clear what Smiley is or what means he might be using. Is Smiley mind controlling people? Well which people and when in the process does he mind control them? What form does his influence take? Or is he using some kind of probability alteration or something more subtle than mind control?

@boo600 complains that Paul has never pursued this to the endpoint, but I sort of understand why. It's always been a problem that doesn't have to be solved "right now". It's a heat wave rather than a fire. I mean, the Light is fucking around with Apokolips; that's a bigger threat to humanity than teleporters getting hung up in approval testing.

But maybe at long last we're going to see some real progress made on this. Paul has a "super technology" that could do a lot of good and which people will want really badly. He can try to push it through the normal channels and observe carefully what happens. Paul arrived in this world long after Venus Sivana's business plans for her husband's inventions got mysteriously rejected for no obvious reason. This time he can watch in person and see exactly what happens. Truthfully if Boss Smiley was smart he might back off and let this one through, but even that would be informative in a way. It would demonstrate that this is something Smiley has to actively do and has discretion over, as opposed to some kind of grand subtle "curse" that works on its own.

Looking forward to seeing where this one goes, Zoat.

It seems like one additional implication of the Eye Device is that it could mitigate or ouright counter mind-alteration magic that only impacts the human mind. They would have a preserved record of their past decisions and mindset regarding technology and can thus identify any discrepancies caused by mind alteration. This seems like it could at least partially counter whatever widespread magical effect Boss Smiley uses to maintain the technological status quo or otherwise manipulate humanity.
 
It seems like one additional implication of the Eye Device is that it could mitigate or ouright counter mind-alteration magic that only impacts the human mind. They would have a preserved record of their past decisions and mindset regarding technology and can thus identify any discrepancies caused by mind alteration. This seems like it could at least partially counter whatever widespread magical effect Boss Smiley uses to maintain the technological status quo or otherwise manipulate humanity.
It could also be used to alter minds by altering the data kept in the eye drive.
 
It could also be used to alter minds by altering the data kept in the eye drive.

That is risk but on the magic side it could be mitigated by incorporating the anti-scanning magic sigils that Lex Luthor figured out how to mass-produce. This should be relatively low-cost addition as the Eye devices are expensive single-person tools that would be intended to last a lifetime and it would be a relatively simple inclusion to add some magic writing in the construction process.

It would not need to be a anti-magic defense as comprehensive as the magic talismans OL had produced by Atlantis but simply something that could bypass the widespread detection and subtle influence of a spell meant to cover everyone in a large region or has a defined category of knowledge or mindset.

For technological alteration ensuring security should be manageable by having the Eye devices function in autistic mode. They would have no connection to outside sources and thus only be alterable through direct physial access or super-tech like a Lantern ring. This is not possible with modern technology as they require Cloud access to store the data needed to function but it should be possible given the enhanced technology of the setting.
 
Psychoprompt (part 15) New
8th April 2258
09:33 G.M.T. +1

Mayan and I walk down a busy street in Geneva, which has somehow become Earth's capital. How it beat New York or Brussels I don't know, but I can see 'Earth Dome' from here. There are a few aliens around, mostly embassy staff, but virtually the entire population is human.

And anyone interested in our location could work it out from the way sound stops when they see Mayan.

I think. I mean, it could be me but there isn't anything about me that would cause me to stand out. Other than her, there aren't any minbari on the street. In fact, I don't think there's actually a minbari embassy on the planet. The centauri and narns each have an embassy, as well as several species from the League of Non-Aligned worlds. I'm not… Actually sure what the split in responsibilities between embassies here and the ones on Babylon 5 is… I suppose that the ones here handle direct communication with the Alliance's government? And help their citizens negotiate Earth civilisation?

"Do you think maybe it would have been a better idea to wait a generation?"

"Someone must be the first to extend a hand."

I frown. "Are minbari like centauri, where you don't have major blood vessels in your wrists?"

"We are not."

"Then don't extend anything you're not going to get back."

She looks around slightly nervously. "I had thought that the reception here would be… Better."

"A-." I frown hard at me. "Why?"

"Because the war is over, and has been over for ten years."

"You know humans can live for a hundred years, right? Ten years is definitely not a lifetime. I doubt that anyone here has had an interaction with a minbari that wasn't shooting at them."

She draws herself up slightly. "The I will be the first."

"Okay, so how about we ease into-"

She turns hard left and walks into a café.

"-it gradually-?"

I dash after her, the door barely having the chance to ring closed. A sound I can hear very easily, because the Zone of Silence has followed us from the street and is now spreading across the café as the occupants look up to find out why everyone's stopped making noise.

Okay, we're near the centre of the capital. This is an expensive place to live, so I doubt that she's about to out me by needing me to defend her from a mob.

Perhaps she would learn something from the experience.

And you wouldn't enjoy it at all, Kral'nag?

I would enjoy it immensely. But it would be better to be shattered into a thousand pieces rather than forced to live in the vorlon's crystal stasis. There were minbari who saw it our way.

Mayan is still standing there, just taking in the glares. I think she's genuinely surprised, though I'm not at all sure why. I walk up to her, smile and nod at the audience, grab her around the waist and lever her into a nearby chair.

She stares at me in shock as I sit down opposite her, and then looks down and wriggles herself to defray stress.

I lean a little closer. "Sorry if that violates propriety-"

Her head comes back up. "Yes. It did."

"-but you were making yourself a target. And I really hope that you have a better plan than this."

"Yes, I have reached out to human writers at the University of Zurich. I will be holding a seminar in two days." I wince. "I did not think that the response to be presence would be so widespread."

"So, you know how well the narns and centauri get along?"

"The minbari never occupied human worlds."

"And the centauri never actually tried to exterminate the narns. Now, I wasn't here for that whole thing so I'm not as emotionally invested in it as they are, but you must understand where they're coming from."

"But how can out peoples know peace if we cannot talk to each other?"

I smile.

"Are you familiar with the human concept of a Catch Twenty-Two situation?"

"I.. am not."

"In the novel 'Catch Twenty-Two', the protagonist wants to stop flying bombing missions, so he feigns mental incapacity in the hope that he'll be removed from the duty. The problem is that his commanders are perfectly aware that no sane person would want to fly those missions. Therefore, if he's mad, he's perfectly qualified, and if he's sane, they've got no reason to remove him anyway."

Her brow hardens as she tries to make sense of that.

"That makes no sense."

I nod. "Yes. In this situation, it would be… We want peace. To get peace, we need to talk to people. Until we are at peace, we cannot talk. Therefore..."

Her brow smoothes. "We will never have peace."

I grin, sitting back and throw my arms up. "Bingo!"

"I cannot accept that."

"Then this will either be a learning experience, or a comedy experience. Though since someone is going to ask… It doesn't matter to me, you understand, but-."

"Ten years ago I was poet in residence at the Thanan monastery. I considered the war with your people to be regrettable-." I wince, and she stops. "Did I misspeak?"

"If that's genuinely how you felt about it, no. You're still speaking a minbari language, right?"

"No, I am speaking English. Is that not the main human language?"

"Sometimes it's better if people can't understand you. Ah. For future reference, most humans consider 'regrettable' to be an insufficient adjective for the extermination of any species, especially ours. We don't even really like that the dilgar got wiped out, and we were the ones who wiped them out!"

She stare at me in incomprehension.

"Seriously, check out our discussion forums. The prevailing view is that while their entire leadership class deserved to get fed feet-first in to a wood chipper, most of their people didn't really have any decision-making power and if evacuating them had been at all practical we should have done it."

"Then what should I have done?"

"Anti-war poetry and music are fairly common in human society. Siegfried Sassoon is the poet who comes immediately to mind, but my poetry studies stopped at sixteen. Public protests against government actions are also common. If you could honestly say that you'd made some noise and been imprisoned or otherwise punished, you'd find that the crowd would warm up considerably. 'Oh dear, oh well' will not go down well."

She makes a… Sort of shaking, neck-snaking gesture. "Minbari do not protest our government."

"Yes, I know, strict hierarchy, need to know and obedience. And… To a degree, in some circumstances, humans would accept that for a soldier. But not for a poet."

"I not believe-"

The door chime rings, and I glance around.

Black uniform, Psi Corps insignia.

Looking at me.
 
Even if it is a relatively high-caste/class area, I'm surprised at least one person didn't just try to walk up and punch her in the schnoz.
 
There were minbari who saw it our way.

The Shadowsouled.

think that the response to be presence would be so widespread."

"my presence"

"And the centauri never actually tried to exterminate the narns
The massive deaths were a happy byproduct for the Centauri.
how can out peoples know

"can our"

"But how can out peoples know peace if we cannot talk to each other

I think for a lot of humans, not seeing a Minbari for the rest of existence is enough.

For a lot of Minbari too.

"Then this will either be a learning experience, or a comedy experience

And given Minbari humor, it may be both.

You'd have to laugh if you don't want to cry.

We don't even really like that the dilgar got wiped out, and we were the ones who wiped them out!"

That was mostly nature.

Though EarthForce helped.

"Yes, I know, strict hierarchy, need to know and obedience. And… To a degree, in some circumstances, humans would accept that for a soldier

Unfortunately, the whole "just following orders" was never quite wiped out.


"do not"

Even if it is a relatively high-caste/class area, I'm surprised at least one person didn't just try to walk up and punch her in the schnoz.

If most of the aliens in the area are members of political organizations, then they may just think that she's also a member of such an organization.

The last time humans attacked a Minbari politician, it didn't end well for them.
 
8th April 2258
09:33 G.M.T. +1


Mayan and I walk down a busy street in Geneva, which has somehow become Earth's capital. How it beat New York or Brussels I don't know, but I can see 'Earth Dome' from here. There are a few aliens around, mostly embassy staff, but virtually the entire population is human.

And anyone interested in our location could work it out from the way sound stops when they see Mayan.
Ah, the very loud silence of stunned surprise that can quickly turn into anger. And Matthew's presence by her side isn't going to help much if someone decides to give the 'bonehead' a talking-to...

I think. I mean, it could be me but there isn't anything about me that would cause me to stand out. Other than her, there aren't any minbari on the street. In fact, I don't think there's actually a minbari embassy on the planet. The centauri and narns each have an embassy, as well as several species from the League of Non-Aligned worlds. I'm not… Actually sure what the split in responsibilities between embassies here and the ones on Babylon 5 is… I suppose that the ones here handle direct communication with the Alliance's government? And help their citizens negotiate Earth civilisation?
And any Minbari coming to Earth would be doing the equivalent of driving into a bad neighbourhood in a flashy car. What Ankh-Morporkians would call 'premeditated suicide'.

"Do you think maybe it would have been a better idea to wait a generation?"

"Someone must be the first to extend a hand."
Yes, the problem here is...

I frown. "Are minbari like centauri, where you don't have major blood vessels in your wrists?"

"We are not."

"Then don't extend anything you're not going to get back."
...Yes, that extended hand is likely to get smacked aside or worse.

She looks around slightly nervously. "I had thought that the reception here would be… Better."

"A-." I frown hard at me. "Why?"
...She's relentlessly optimistic, isn't she? I wonder if it's just a pose for her or if she's really that naive...

"Because the war is over, and has been over for ten years."

"You know humans can live for a hundred years, right? Ten years is definitely not a lifetime. I doubt that anyone here has had an interaction with a minbari that wasn't shooting at them."
Especially if they were in the military at the time. Those would be the folks staring daggers.

She draws herself up slightly. "The I will be the first."

"Okay, so how about we ease into-"

She turns hard left and walks into a café.
So, so foolishly optimistic.

"-it gradually-?"

I dash after her, the door barely having the chance to ring closed. A sound I can hear very easily, because the Zone of Silence has followed us from the street and is now spreading across the café as the occupants look up to find out why everyone's stopped making noise.
Ah, yes. The slow spread as one person looking at the door goes wide-eyed then those sitting with them turn to see why, then the folks not paying attention notice it going quiet...

Okay, we're near the centre of the capital. This is an expensive place to live, so I doubt that she's about to out me by needing me to defend her from a mob.

Perhaps she would learn something from the experience.
And the police would probably be close at hand if anything turned violent. Not necessarily jumping in right away, I suspect, but if it looks likely to turn lethal...

And you wouldn't enjoy it at all, Kral'nag?

I would enjoy it immensely. But it would be better to be shattered into a thousand pieces rather than forced to live in the vorlon's crystal stasis. There were minbari who saw it our way.
Pretty clear where that one stands, then.

Mayan is still standing there, just taking in the glares. I think she's genuinely surprised, though I'm not at all sure why. I walk up to her, smile and nod at the audience, grab her around the waist and lever her into a nearby chair.

She stares at me in shock as I sit down opposite her, and then looks down and wriggles herself to defray stress.
Ah, trying to convey a sense of 'don't mind her, she's a little slow.' Better they think her a fool than think she's taunting them.

I lean a little closer. "Sorry if that violates propriety-"

Her head comes back up. "Yes. It did."
It was that or face some rather loud complaints and possibly thrown food.

"-but you were making yourself a target. And I really hope that you have a better plan than this."

"Yes, I have reached out to human writers at the University of Zurich. I will be holding a seminar in two days."
I wince. "I did not think that the response to be presence would be so widespread."
Oh, boy. I wonder how many people will turn up just to see how high-and-mighty she acts. She might never act that way on purpose, but it's very easy for Minbari to seem condescending.

"So, you know how well the narns and centauri get along?"

"The minbari never occupied human worlds."
The relationship is rather like tinder and wood-dust. One spark and you have a firestorm. So let's not try to be that spark?

"And the centauri never actually tried to exterminate the narns. Now, I wasn't here for that whole thing so I'm not as emotionally invested in it as they are, but you must understand where they're coming from."

"But how can out peoples know peace if we cannot talk to each other?"
Talking would require a level of social contact far calmer than 'silent stares in the street'.

I smile.

"Are you familiar with the human concept of a Catch Twenty-Two situation?"

"I.. am not."
The particular logical problem that can best be summed up as 'damned if you do, damned if you don't.'

"In the novel 'Catch Twenty-Two', the protagonist wants to stop flying bombing missions, so he feigns mental incapacity in the hope that he'll be removed from the duty. The problem is that his commanders are perfectly aware that no sane person would want to fly those missions. Therefore, if he's mad, he's perfectly qualified, and if he's sane, they've got no reason to remove him anyway."

Her brow hardens as she tries to make sense of that.
Yes, it's probably a concept the Minbari would struggle with, given their tendency towards submission to legitimate authority.

"That makes no sense."

I nod. "Yes. In this situation, it would be… We want peace. To get peace, we need to talk to people. Until we are at peace, we cannot talk. Therefore..."
And with every failure, it gets harder and harder to make the attempts.

Her brow smoothes. "We will never have peace."

I grin, sitting back and throw my arms up. "Bingo!"
Yep. And so both sides sit behind their walls, slowly stewing until it all boils over again.

"I cannot accept that."

"Then this will either be a learning experience, or a comedy experience. Though since someone is going to ask… It doesn't matter to me, you understand, but-."
I'm sure every human ear in the place is not-so-discreetly listening in right now. And more than a few electronic ones too.

"Ten years ago I was poet in residence at the Thanan monastery. I considered the war with your people to be regrettable-." I wince, and she stops. "Did I misspeak?"

"If that's genuinely how you felt about it, no. You're still speaking a minbari language, right?"

"No, I am speaking English. Is that not the main human language?"
Ah, yes. It can be hard for Matthew to notice what language they're speaking due to Ring translation... Which means that every person in the place heard every word they said.

"Sometimes it's better if people can't understand you. Ah. For future reference, most humans consider 'regrettable' to be an insufficient adjective for the extermination of any species, especially ours. We don't even really like that the dilgar got wiped out, and we were the ones who wiped them out!"
Sometimes that sort of violence can shock even the people committing it, after all.

She stare at me in incomprehension.

"Seriously, check out our discussion forums. The prevailing view is that while their entire leadership class deserved to get fed feet-first in to a wood chipper, most of their people didn't really have any decision-making power and if evacuating them had been at all practical we should have done it."
Except it wasn't practical, unless you could somehow send in teams to extract every person in a leadership position simultaneously.

"Then what should I have done?"

"Anti-war poetry and music are fairly common in human society. Siegfried Sassoon is the poet who comes immediately to mind, but my poetry studies stopped at sixteen. Public protests against government actions are also common. If you could honestly say that you'd made some noise and been imprisoned or otherwise punished, you'd find that the crowd would warm up considerably. 'Oh dear, oh well' will not go down well."
Certainly, trying to phrase her opinion in a manner more sympathetic to the human listeners would be wiser.

She makes a… Sort of shaking, neck-snaking gesture. "Minbari do not protest our government."

"Yes, I know, strict hierarchy, need to know and obedience. And… To a degree, in some circumstances, humans would accept that for a soldier. But not for a poet."
As noted, many poets, musicians and other artistic folks oppose wartime leaderships in the best way they can. Generally by asking people 'this is wrong, isn't it?'

"I not believe-"

The door chime rings, and I glance around.
Instinct for incoming trouble already honed, I see.

Black uniform, Psi Corps insignia.

Looking at me.
Most likely because of the Lyta Alexander thing.

Oh, boy. The crows gather. Now, will they take the soft approach and humbly request Matthew come quietly and make an accounting of himself where it concerns a certain missing telepath. Or will this situation get loud, given that PSI Corps likely has a warrant out for his arrest, and Mayan will likely get caught up in the splash zone...
 
Wait does she really have that much trouble understanding how bad attempted genocide is? Is this some Minbari cultural thing?
 
Ah...we are ON Earth, now. Pity, I wanted to see the fallout in Minbar, but this is good, too. Well, from a readers perspective, probably not from ground zero.

8th April 2258
09:33 G.M.T. +1


Mayan and I walk down a busy street in Geneva, which has somehow become Earth's capital. How it beat New York or Brussels I don't know, but I can see 'Earth Dome' from here. There are a few aliens around, mostly embassy staff, but virtually the entire population is human.

And anyone interested in our location could work it out from the way sound stops when they see Mayan.

...yeah, not surprised. And I understand. Heck, even Sinclair admits that he reigns in his impulse to strangle a minbari dead on sight. Respect for the man for getting over it, there are people who genuinely can't.

"Do you think maybe it would have been a better idea to wait a generation?"

"Someone must be the first to extend a hand."

I frown. "Are minbari like centauri, where you don't have major blood vessels in your wrists?"

"We are not."

"Then don't extend anything you're not going to get back."

Brutal, but honestly, I think the average minbari just don't get this...and I just had a worrying thought that she didn't do any background research on humans.

She looks around slightly nervously. "I had thought that the reception here would be… Better."

"A-." I frown hard at me. "Why?"

An excellent question, and brilliant reaction. Babylon 5, at the moment, works because the people there want it to work. They do everything in their power to make it work. And they are talking...there. Not here, on Earth...which very nearly was glassed from orbit by your people, Mayan. I think she finds it genuinely baffling that people would tar her with the same brush.

"Because the war is over, and has been over for ten years."

"You know humans can live for a hundred years, right? Ten years is definitely not a lifetime. I doubt that anyone here has had an interaction with a minbari that wasn't shooting at them."

Debatable...though if they are on Earth Dome, a large part of them would be members of EarthForce. So...yeah, a lot of them would be veterans from the Line or from other fronts. And them educating the next generation of military what it meant to go against minbari war machine...would have things to say about it.

She draws herself up slightly. "The I will be the first."

"Okay, so how about we ease into-"

She turns hard left and walks into a café.

"-it gradually-?"

Again, I respect the intent, Mayan...but I think you should have done some ground work before jumping into this head first.

Mayan is still standing there, just taking in the glares. I think she's genuinely surprised, though I'm not at all sure why. I walk up to her, smile and nod at the audience, grab her around the waist and lever her into a nearby chair.

Not surprised. What's surprising is that they're not hurling insults or throwing food at her. Of course, doing just that would have...repercussions.

"Are you familiar with the human concept of a Catch Twenty-Two situation?"

"I.. am not."

"In the novel 'Catch Twenty-Two', the protagonist wants to stop flying bombing missions, so he feigns mental incapacity in the hope that he'll be removed from the duty. The problem is that his commanders are perfectly aware that no sane person would want to fly those missions. Therefore, if he's mad, he's perfectly qualified, and if he's sane, they've got no reason to remove him anyway."

Her brow hardens as she tries to make sense of that.

...yeah. The whole Earth-Minbari War was a massive Catch-22 for Earth. One they nearly didn't survive.

"That makes no sense."

I nod. "Yes. In this situation, it would be… We want peace. To get peace, we need to talk to people. Until we are at peace, we cannot talk. Therefore..."

Her brow smoothes. "We will never have peace."

I grin, sitting back and throw my arms up. "Bingo!"

Eh, it did eventually start working...but it took a lot of work.

"I cannot accept that."

"Then this will either be a learning experience, or a comedy experience. Though since someone is going to ask… It doesn't matter to me, you understand, but-."

"Ten years ago I was poet in residence at the Thanan monastery. I considered the war with your people to be regrettable-." I wince, and she stops. "Did I misspeak?"

*wince* That was...I have no words. I knew that average minbari was...not wholly part of the whole thing, but damn. Hopefully she wasn't overheard.

"If that's genuinely how you felt about it, no. You're still speaking a minbari language, right?"

"No, I am speaking English. Is that not the main human language?"

"Sometimes it's better if people can't understand you. Ah. For future reference, most humans consider 'regrettable' to be an insufficient adjective for the extermination of any species, especially ours. We don't even really like that the dilgar got wiped out, and we were the ones who wiped them out!"

She stare at me in incomprehension.

Not surprised. I don't know if it was ever outright said in the show, but I remember it being a nasty surprise to EarthGov when Dilgar sun went nova after the Dilgar War ended and they were quarantined on their homeworld. The fact that Mayan is surprised by this in itself noteworthy, as well. She's surprised that Humans would feel regret for defeating the Dilgar.

"Seriously, check out our discussion forums. The prevailing view is that while their entire leadership class deserved to get fed feet-first in to a wood chipper, most of their people didn't really have any decision-making power and if evacuating them had been at all practical we should have done it."

"Then what should I have done?"

"Anti-war poetry and music are fairly common in human society. Siegfried Sassoon is the poet who comes immediately to mind, but my poetry studies stopped at sixteen. Public protests against government actions are also common. If you could honestly say that you'd made some noise and been imprisoned or otherwise punished, you'd find that the crowd would warm up considerably. 'Oh dear, oh well' will not go down well."

All good stuff, but, again, it shows that she did not research nearly enough. And, true, there's stuff that you just wouldn't get from text. You'd actually have to talk to people. Babylon 5 would have been a far better starting point...and we know how that nearly went.

The door chime rings, and I glance around.

Black uniform, Psi Corps insignia.

Looking at me.

...welp, here we go. This is either going to go really badly...or really funny. Not yet sure which.

Hold on to your butts, gentlemen. This is going to be...interesting.
 
Wait does she really have that much trouble understanding how bad attempted genocide is? Is this some Minbari cultural thing?
Yes.

The Minbari considered the war to be a holy war, so to a lot of them it was a spiritual necessity.

Even ones that didn't approve of it may not have thought about how insane it was.

Minbari also didn't interact that much with aliens before, so they may not understand how they'd react to a Minbari's presence.

Minbari also don't have anything like a news network. They just get told what their superiors think they should know, so Mayan may not know about the atrocities the Minbari committed since they don't have a system for showing those things.
 
"Are you familiar with the human concept of a Catch Twenty-Two situation?"

"I.. am not."

"In the novel 'Catch Twenty-Two', the protagonist wants to stop flying bombing missions, so he feigns mental incapacity in the hope that he'll be removed from the duty. The problem is that his commanders are perfectly aware that no sane person would want to fly those missions. Therefore, if he's mad, he's perfectly qualified, and if he's sane, they've got no reason to remove him anyway."
As I recall the titular 'Catch 22' was that being insane would get you kicked out of the Army Air Forces - but if you were actually insane they wouldn't have let you into the Army Air Forces. But it's been awhile.


Wait does she really have that much trouble understanding how bad attempted genocide is? Is this some Minbari cultural thing?
...She's relentlessly optimistic, isn't she? I wonder if it's just a pose for her or if she's really that naive...
She's a poet. And it's clear that the "but I believed the right things!" mindset is, unfortunately, not specific to humans.

The door chime rings, and I glance around.

Black uniform, Psi Corps insignia.

Looking at me.
and Mayan will likely get caught up in the splash zone...
That'd be the first three rows.
 

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