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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Reader mode
Lothlo said:
One of these chapters I'm sure this will happen, and Paul won't be surprised one bit:
-Angelika of Earth 10. You possess a great will. Welcome to the Green Lantern Corps.
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More like:

"Angelika of Earth 10, you are angry beyond all belief and have no reasonable way to express it. Here is a way to express it. Welcome to the Red Lantern Corps.
 
Seeing as how things are going maybe she won't becomes a better person. This episode could be just her getting her world view destroyed without becoming a better person.
Though maybe if she shows up in the future something good could be done with her.
 
So another chapter in which one character supports Nazi ideology while the protagonist flails around and can't manage to muster a serious opposition.

Why isn't OL bringing up how the standards that the Nazi regime is using to determine genetic fitness are hopelessly biased and that the Nazi system of eugenics is not in any way representative of real genetic science> It should be trivial for him to prove that Jews and other people deemed genetically unfit by Nazi Ideology do not possess genetic characters that make them inferior or dangerous.

You can say what you want about it making sense for OL to behave like this from an IC perspective, but you are the one setting up the conditions that lead to this situation where the arguments supporting a horrific ideology are presented in a strong manner while the arguments against it are delivered in a lackluster manner. Why have you led the story in this direction? Are you trying to prove some philosophical or political point here?
 
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Mr Zoat said:
"No."

"I can s-."

"No."

"Overg-."

"No."

"Angelika-."

"How is your society so degenerate that a good woman like Aunty Gerri is… Infected with these filthy habits?"
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Oh, she is not a happy camper. Looks like she's gone from 'Screaming Internally' to 'Screaming Externally'

"Simply put, we-" Mostly. "-don't regard them as filthy or degenerate. I mean, what logical-."

"What djgkh-?" She shudders, taking a moment to compose herself. I really have to admire her presence of mind; she's had to do that a lot today, but even being confronted by the idea that the woman who's become her mother-substitute was homosexual all along she's trying to respond coherently and rationally. "Logical. Yes. How do they have children?"
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You assume they want children? Not everyone is interested in making babies for the State...

"In vitro fertilisation. Or they adopt." I shrug. "Come on, I know kryptonians has exo-wombs. I don't believe for a moment that Earth Ten doesn't have technology for assisting reproduction."

She shakes her head. "We could probably perform such procedures but we do not use the technology like that. If it cannot breed then it does not deserve to breed."
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...Like talking to a brick wall. She is not coming around anytime soon...

"Oh."

She glares at me. "What do you mean 'oh'?"

"Kon hasn't.. exactly asked, but it.. seemed… He wouldn't be able to have children with M'gann anyway. I.. had wondered how you squared superheroing with… 'Children, church and kitchen'."
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Old-fashioned attitudes... That belong in the past they came from...

"Women aren't that limited. Ariosophists like strong women. And the fact that I cannot have children does not unduly trouble me. We do not sterilise war veterans who lost limbs in honourable battle in the way we do people born without them due to genetic flaws. I lost the ability to bear children but my race gained knowledge of kryptonian genetics. Mine was an honourable sacrifice."

"Your men-."

"Karl could sire children on any healthy kryptonian woman. It does not apply."
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...Ew. He's basically your father, lady. Even if not biological, just... Ew.

"And most lesbians could reproduce through conventional sex with a man if they wanted to. And I imagine that prior to the invention of assisted reproduction technology.. some did. I've personally helped thirty one lesbian couples have children or become pregnant-."

"If they are having-" She frowns. "-sex with you then they are hardly lesbians."
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Phrasing, OL, phrasing. You'd think he'd learn to consider it in situations like this...

"Ah, no, sorry, I meant that I've used my ring to assist them, merging genetic material and triggering cell division."

Which is not to say that I haven't had… Offers. Some of which included Jade. I'm pretty sure that she'd never go for it.
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Huh. I didn't know he'd even taken Jade to visit Themyscira.

"Besides, one man causing that many pregnancies amongst a isolated population would be terrible for genetic diversity."

"Please repeat that?"
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Does she not even understand basic physiology? Or is this a 'lost in translation' thing?

I frown. "Besides… One man causing.. that many pregnancies amongst a isolated population would be.. terrible for genetic diversity?"

"So perhaps you should add negroes and Jews to it? Have you been educated into believing that you need genes from degenerates in order to remain healthy?"
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<Sigh> Yeah, OL, this is not working. She's just not interested in dropping the National Socialist thing.

"Ah-. Not exactly, but genetic errors tend to be expressed far less in diverse populations."

"Just sterilise the people carrying them."
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Oh, that's gonna start some arguments...

"That seems a little extreme."

"Does 'diversity' prevent genetic errors from being expressed, even when only unrelated people reproduce?"

"Ah, no, not completely. We don't-."

"Sterilisation does, when combined with mandatory genetic screening."
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Yeah, Earth 16 don't swing that way. That would raise so many red flags... Gee, I wonder why?:V

"We don't have the technology to screen like that. But we're getting off the point, unless your Earth has discovered an underlying genetic basis for homosexuality."

"What is the point?" She turns away. "In a few days, either your Justice League will send me back, or the New Statesmen will have come to recover me. You will not 'turn' me in that time, and I doubt that I will have turned you."
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Well, that's that, OL. Time to turn up the 'polite host' stance, wait for Overman to turn up and send her home.

"The.. point is that we told Mrs Brauer that we'd meet her, and we're going to be late."

"So-. Wait, she is married? You told me that she is only interested in women!"
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Because of course there's no homosexual marriage in her world. Something that doesn't exist doesn't need to marry...:mad:

I don't remember what Germany Prime's stance on gay marriage was, but here it's been legal since the naughties.

"German law allows two people to marry. Whether they're a man and a woman or two of either only significant if they want a church wedding."
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And cue the offended face...

Angelika appears to be uncertain what to make of that. Either that, or she's about to vomit, but we're over countryside here so that won't matter too much.
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...Or the 'Do Not Want' face. good enough. Which is similar to a 'What is that horrible smell?' face, I bet.

"Gay people are no more inherently liberal than straight people. If given the opportunity to form near-conventional romantic relationships, most will go for it. I mean, what do your schools teach about Ernst Röhm?"

"Who?"
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Winners write history books. They can also delete people from them...

"Member of the German Workers' Party? Commanded the Sturmabteilung? Took over the War Ministry during the Beer Hall Putsch? Got purged when the National Socialists went mainstream?"

"Are you implying that he may have been homosexual?"
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Guess what, honey... No implying needed!

"I'm not implying anything; I'm directly stating it. As I understand, he was pretty open about it. It was public knowledge at the time. And he was still a member of the National Socialist party because it didn't have a hard line on sexual orientation at the time and he agreed with everything else." Hm. "You know, you could take a copy of our archives back with you. Everything your Germania has chosen to forget. I mean… If you're sure that you're right, what's the harm is getting more primary sources?"

"Sometimes the purity-. The purity of the state must be preserved by impure means."
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How... Impure of you, Angelika...

"Meaning?"

"The criminal terrorists I fight often have friends and families. Some of whom knew nothing of their illegal activities. People who would morn their loss, and beg for clemency. It would be 'nice' to be able to grant it, but all that would do is release a criminal to commit more crimes. So I don't dwell on it. I don't hear petitions. And I don't record that someone I tore in half was considered to be 'a friendly, regular sort of guy' in official reports, because people will read those and may reach the false conclusion that terrorism is what friendly, regular sorts of guy do."
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In other words, your world's narrative demands bad guys, so you can't have anything that disagrees with that.

"And is having sex with other women something that national heroines do?"

She gives her head a small shake. "No."
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Ah, Hypocrisy incoming. She is human after all.

"Then how do you intend to explain-?"

"Overman-. I'm sure that he knows. And… If my Aunty Gerri is… Then I will not talk about it. I will not report it. And I will bear talking to your Mrs Brauer as I have borne everything else here."
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Fine. Just try to keep your opinions on the matter to yourself, please.

Well, there's the explosion we were all waiting for. Thankfully it wasn't nuclear. The sooner she's headed home the better, I think, if only to settle the tempers of all involved...

Corrections:
"Come on, I know kryptonians has exo-wombs.
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"Come on, I know kryptonians had exo-wombs.
...amongst a isolated population...
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...amongst an isolated population...
...and a woman or two of either only significant if they...
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...and a woman or two of either is only significant if they...
People who would morn their loss...
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People who would mourn their loss...
 
Ct613hulu said:
snip
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I...don't see any arguments for Nazi ideology? She is merely saying what they did, not why it was justified. Like...she isn't even seeing the human cost.

She isn't even defending anything, for her it's self evident.

It's a fairly realistic portrayel of someone raised in a totalitarian belief system, I think.
 
Wait, didn't Paul have a mission where he interacted with a clone of Hitler who was married to a black woman?? He could take Overgirl to meet him just to mess with her on the topic of nature vs nurture
 
In fairness to Angelika i can see why she would like to consider criminals as just criminals, instead of ordinary people. They commited crimes and if she let them go they would commit more crimes.
One guys monsters is anothers hero.
It is still a shitty argument coming from the mouth of a nazi, but i am pretty sure that most ordinary people and police officers, that being those who aren't nazis, have a similar mindset when it comes to criminals.
 
Darko said:
In fairness to Angelika i can see why she would like to consider criminals as just criminals, instead of ordinary people. They commited crimes and if she let them go they would commit more crimes.
One guys monsters is anothers hero.
It is still a shitty argument coming from the mouth of a nazi, but i am pretty sure that most ordinary people and police officers, that being those who aren't nazis, have a similar mindset when it comes to criminals.
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That seems more like a criticism of the ordinary people and police officers with that mindset than any kind of defense of Overgirl or other enforcers of Nazi ideology. The fact that dehumanizing enemies can be a psychologically tempting and useful means of behavior doesn't mean that it should be considered to be morally acceptable or any less dangerous.

We should keep in mind that some of the "crimes" deemed worthy of death by Overgirl's would be things like being slavic, supporting servile insurrection, sabotaging concentration camps, and spreading "propaganda'" on the misdeeds of the Nazi Party. Her argument in defense of her lack of sympathy for "criminals" only makes sense if you consider these behaviors to be crimes worthy of death. It actually seems to serve as a good example of why dehumanizing people is an incredibly dangerous type of behavior that can lead otherwise moral individuals to commit horrific actions.
 
rdfox said:
The largest named number is the googolplex,
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Ah-hahaha-no.
Googolplexian is 10googolplex​. And even that is peanuts.

Graham's Number.
To get to Graham's Number, we first have to explain uparrow notation.

You know that doing addition multiple times is multiplication.
3+3+3 = 3×3 = 9
That's one part of a pattern.

You know that doing multiplication multiple times is exponentiation. You multiply it by the previous, 9.
3×3×3 = 33​ = 27
That's the next part of the pattern. It's also where uparrow notation starts. Because this pattern continues, and we need ways to talk about it.
3↑3 = 3×3×3 = 33​ = 27

If you make a tower of exponents, you've got what's called tetration. You raise it to the power of the previous, 27.
Tetration is the next step beyond exponents, in the same direction as from addition to multiplication, or multiplication to exponents.
333​​ = 327​ = 3↑↑3 = 3↑3↑3 = 7625597484987
You may notice that this number is... significantly larger than the previous steps. This is a trend that not only continues, but gets worse faster in a way you can't comprehend.

A googolplexian is less than 3↑↑6

The next step is pentation. You make a stack of power towers as tall as the previous. Which is... 7625597484987
3↑↑↑3 = 3↑↑3↑↑3 = 3↑↑7625597484987 = a stack of threes 33333...​​​​​ which is 7625597484987 threes tall = Fuck you.
But we're only getting started. Now that you know what uparrow notation is, we can start talking about Graham's Number.

So let's start at a relatively small number to give a sense of scale. Let the number g1​ mean:
3↑↑↑↑3
which is a tower of 3s as high as the "fuck you" answer I noped out on.

The number g2​ would then be:
3↑↑↑...↑↑↑3
where the number of ARROWS between those threes is the answer to the tower of 3s as high as the "fuck you" answer.

The number g3​ has THAT MANY arrows between the threes.

Graham's Number is g64​

There was some question about coloring lines, where they figured out that the answer was somewhere between this bullshit number... ...and 6.
"Clearly, there is some room here for improvement," states Graham about his solution.

The number TREE(3) which makes Graham's Number look like it isn't even trying, will not be covered here.
 
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So basically she refuses to acknowledge anything that counteracts her worldview, she doesn't care for truth only for principles she was brought up in. She would rather bury her head in sand and ignore that is there rather than confront it and idea that what her society says is wrong.

Sadly that is a very common attitude among people, if if doesn't conform to your personal world view your either ignore it or violently remove it.
 
Ct613hulu said:
That seems more like a criticism of the ordinary people and police officers with that mindset than any kind of defense of Overgirl or other enforcers of Nazi ideology. The fact that dehumanizing enemies can be a psychologically tempting and useful means of behavior doesn't mean that it should be considered to be morally acceptable or any less dangerous.

We should keep in mind that some of the "crimes" deemed worthy of death by Overgirl's would be things like being slavic, supporting servile insurrection, sabotaging concentration camps, and spreading "propaganda'" on the misdeeds of the Nazi Party. Her argument in defense of her lack of sympathy for "criminals" only makes sense if you consider these behaviors to be crimes worthy of death. It actually seems to serve as a good example of why dehumanizing people is an incredibly dangerous type of behavior that can lead otherwise moral individuals to commit horrific actions.
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NSDAP isn't quite stupid enough to waste the time of one of their power powerful superheroes on things like that. They also don't really have concentration camps any longer due to a lack of need.
rkyeun said:
Ah-hahaha-no. Googolplexian is 10googolplex​. And even that is peanuts.

Graham's Number.
To get to Graham's Number, we first have to explain uparrow notation.

You know that doing addition multiple times is multiplication.
3+3+3 = 3×3 = 9
That's one part of a pattern.

You know that doing multiplication multiple times is exponentiation. You multiply it by the previous, 9.
3×3×3 = 33​ = 27
That's the next part of the pattern. It's also where uparrow notation starts. Because this pattern continues, and we need ways to talk about it.
3↑3 = 3×3×3 = 33​ = 27

If you make a tower of exponents, you've got what's called tetration. You raise it to the power of the previous, 27.
Tetration is the next step beyond exponents, in the same direction as from addition to multiplication, or multiplication to exponents.
333​​ = 327​ = 3↑↑3 = 3↑3↑3 = 7625597484987
You may notice that this number is... significantly larger than the previous steps. This is a trend that not only continues, but gets worse faster in a way you can't comprehend.

A googolplexian is less than 3↑↑6

The next step is pentation. You make a stack of power towers as tall as the previous. Which is... 7625597484987
3↑↑↑3 = 3↑↑3↑↑3 = 3↑↑7625597484987 = a stack of threes 33333...​​​​​ which is 7625597484987 threes tall = Fuck you.
But we're only getting started. Now that you know what uparrow notation is, we can start talking about Graham's Number.

So let's start at a relatively small number to give a sense of scale. Let the number g1​ mean:
3↑↑↑↑3
which is a tower of 3s as high as the "fuck you" answer I noped out on.

The number g2​ would then be:
3↑↑↑...↑↑↑3
where the number of ARROWS between those threes is the answer to the tower of 3s as high as the "fuck you" answer.

The number g3​ has THAT MANY arrows between the threes.

Graham's Number is g64​

There was some question about coloring lines, where they figured out that the answer was somewhere between this bullshit number... ...and 6.
"Clearly, there is some room here for improvement," states Graham about his solution.
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OFF TOPIC
 
You know, it's just occured to me how much of a fucking dick OL is being.

She gets thrown through into an alternate universe, wakes up, and her keeper is just rushing her about trying to convert her.

Dude, chill. Get her somewhere to sit down, eat a kabab and throw on the TV or something. She hasn't had a moments peace since she woke up.
 
Massgamer said:
So basically she refuses to acknowledge anything that counteracts her worldview, she doesn't care for truth only for principles she was brought up in. She would rather bury her head in sand and ignore that is there rather than confront it and idea that what her society says is wrong.
Sadly that is a very common attitude among people, if if doesn't conform to your personal world view your either ignore it or violently remove it.
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More like TRYING to refuse to acknowledge anything that contradicts her world view, i'd say Paragon and this Earth are getting through to her at least a little or she would not be so agitated or so loudly trying bury her head in the sand.

Grimnar said:
You know, it's just occured to me how much of a fucking dick OL is being.
She gets thrown through into an alternate universe, wakes up, and her keeper is just rushing her about trying to convert her.
Dude, chill. Get her somewhere to sit down, eat a kabab and throw on the TV or something. She hasn't had a moments peace since she woke up.
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She is Nazi and so is in part bringing it on her self. OL is mostly just politely and truthfully answering her questions.
 
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Hope of flipping Overgirl isn't lost, we just need to find someone who can act with empathy better than Paul. Yes, I know about his enlightenment vision, but that doesn't make him better at acting with empathy. Increased stimuli just increases the amount of social information he misses, or the number of social opportunities he misses due to time spent processing information. Just because Paul couldn't swing her literally less than an hour after waking her up doesn't mean that someone can't make meaningful progress.
 
Mr Zoat said:
NSDAP isn't quite stupid enough to waste the time of one of their power powerful superheroes on things like that. They also don't really have concentration camps any longer due to a lack of need.
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Again with the defense of a Nazi regime and the enforcer of that regime. I can understand moral ambiguity and the idea that exploring the humanity of people immersed in a monstrous system can be the seed of an interesting story, but this is really going to far. Does your world-building really need to have an explanation for why all the people mercilessly killed by a enforcer of a Nazi regime were all "evil" and deserving of death?

Why do you keep on seizing on reasons to explain why a victorious Nazi Regime and an enforcer of that Regime are not really that bad? It seems like you are trying to depict the Nazi World as a place that is not substantially different from the real world in terms of standards of morality and behavior for the government. The problem is that even a basic understanding of the goals of the Nazi Party and the type of world envisioned in Nazi ideology should indicate that this is complete nonsense.

A "Nazi World" is not going to be anything less than a total hellhole for the vast majority of humanity who do not fit into the artificial standards of "purity" defined by Nazi Ideology. The massive scale of their ongoing suffering is should be a major feature in any description of a "Nazi World" and the fact that this is totally missing is something I find extremely disturbing.

PS: I think that I am getting a overly bothered by this, so I will make this my last post on the subject.
 
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The comment from Paul about church made me realize that all the Nazis are probably "good Christians". However, what they believe is right isn't necessarily what the Silver City thinks is right. This means they might be worshipping a religion that'll send them to Hell when they die. How would Overgirl react to that? Especially since Hitler is there as well? That'll at least make her realize her world is seriously messed up.
 
The religion thing could be an angle to work with, but even if she figures it out she may decide to switch to one that allows those type of things. Zoat said that what could get a christian a ticket to hell could get a pat on the back from Odin. If the government on her world found out about it i am pretty sure that most would switch faiths from the Silver City to something else.
Even she may decide to switch, depending on how strong her faith in christianity is.
And while they may condemn people who commited those crimes they may allow average civilians that did not take any part in the genocides, whose only crime is believing a shit philosophy but otherwise being decent people that meet the angels criteria for admittance in heaven.
 
Ct613hulu said:
Again with the defense of a Nazi regime and the enforcer of that regime. I can understand moral ambiguity and the idea that exploring the humanity of people immersed in a monstrous system can be the seed of an interesting story, but this is really going to far. Does your world-building really need to have an explanation for why all the people mercilessly killed by a enforcer of a Nazi regime were all "evil" and deserving of death?

Why do you keep on seizing on reasons to explain why a victorious Nazi Regime and an enforcer of that Regime are not really that bad? It seems like you are trying to depict the Nazi World as a place that is not substantially different from the real world in terms of standards of morality and behavior for the government.
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Shit, it's like he's trying to show a Nazi's point of view, from a Nazi. Since that's what she is. Zoat isn't the one with the beliefs, it's Overgirl, who is a Nazi, from a Nazi run world.

How did you think the conversation would go? Instant conversion with no pushback from the person indoctrinated into those beliefs?
 
RichardWhereat said:
How did you think the conversation would go? Instant conversion with no pushback from the person indoctrinated into those beliefs?
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"Hi, I'm a nazi and I believe all sorts of terrible things. The nazi utopia I come from is a hellhole for everyone else."
"Hello, didn't you know that nazis are bad and wrong, and that terrible things and hellholes aren't nice?"
"Oh, I never realised. I guess I'll have to just immediately change my entire worldview."
 
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