With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Dur'id the Druid]

You know, I would really love to know how Thangar intelligence people react to the overheard conversation when Bleez hands in her report.

 

[Mr Zoat]

What was it that Jade was unable to do?

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It was more complicated than 'kill this many bad people and you're good'. It was a path of penance, where you kill bad people as part of a violent othering of your own vices and accept your own injuries as divine punishment for your flaws and failures. Jade was fairly confident that she couldn't make the required mental transformations.

You know, I would really love to know how Thangar intelligence people react to the overheard conversation when Bleez hands in her report.

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Currently, they just think that he's being romantic.

 

[Steelplaza]

"No, that's when the next defence platform comes over the horizon. If it fires, they were behind it. If it doesn't, then they either regained control or they destroyed it with the defence fleet."

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Eh maybe, though the Thangarians have shown some sophistication about testing OL while having a backup plan to deflect blame. (Recalling the prior incident with the cultist attack that they allowed to happen.)

Some smart operators might say, "Well if the first platform didn't get him with a surprise attack, we can safely assume more platforms won't do the job now that his shields are up. Institute plan 'blame it on a patsy' instead of doubling down."

 

[Ardy]

She mostly just said that to asuage her boyfriend. It turned out that meeting their requirements was impractical.

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Would be nice if she established that in the story rather than it appearing that you forgot about it until the comments brought it up

 

[Ardy]

She mostly just said that to asuage her boyfriend. It turned out that meeting their requirements was impractical.

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Would be nice if she established that in the story rather than it appearing that you forgot about it until the comments brought it up

 

[Mr Zoat]

Would be nice if she established that in the story rather than it appearing that you forgot about it until the comments brought it up

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True, but I just made it up because, as you noticed, I forgot about it.

 

[Ardy]

True, but I just made it up because, as you noticed, I forgot about it.

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Perhaps rewrite the conversation?

 

[hkim]

Perhaps rewrite the conversation?

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Perhaps let it go Paul has.

 

[PDV]

"Really. I would have hoped you would at least have tried something less obvious. I was 'annoyed'. Now I am 'right peeved'. Pray I do not become 'nettled'."

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Mistake Not...

 

[Ngamer11]

Currently, they just think that he's being romantic.

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Even after everything Thanagar has learned of Earth and OL in particular, they still don't know that they need to verify what he says no matter how outlandish to confirm whether or not he's being literal? Either they're still underestimating him, or they're in denial over how chaotic and messy the universe they live in really is.

 

[RoninSword]

@Mr Zoat Jade already picked the Scouring Path as a religion. Its a source worshipping religion. Paul was somewhat iffy on it because its ultimate goal is still transcending to join with the Source.

 

[Mr Zoat]

@Mr Zoat Jade already picked the Scouring Path as a religion. Its a source worshipping religion. Paul was somewhat iffy on it because its ultimate goal is still transcending to join with the Source.

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Got a link? Google can't find it.

Edit: Never mind, found it. I'll... Work something out.

 

[RoninSword]

Got a link? Google can't find it.

Edit: Never mind, found it. I'll... Work something out.

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Here you go.

"The Scouring Path."

Ah..?

I blink as the ring brings me up to speed on… A minor martial-focused Source-worshipping religion. One with… A strong emphasis on earning salvation through morally praiseworthy combat. And redemption through morally praiseworthy combat. They usually field a large number of penitents under arms in their military deployments, and they're fairly popular amongst soldiers in about seventy different systems around their world of origin.

"That's… A pretty good choice. I didn't.. know-."

"A couple of Darkstars I was stationed with are into it. Like you said, it's a good idea to pick something. And I get to earn redemption for something I was doing anyway."

Because one of the Scouring Path's beliefs is that someone who performs moral deeds will naturally come to identify with them, regardless of how pure their original motives were. Faults and weaknesses are scoured away as you walk towards the Source.

"Right, but it's Source-worshipping."

"Is that a problem?"

"Well… All Source religions… Except some of the really out there ones… Ah… Direct their adherents towards spiritual transcendence."

"So do most Earth religions."

Yeah. Most. Cyclic reincarnation leading to transcendence or bringing a soul that did its best closer to God to give it a better idea of what it's supposed to be. That's… What most modern religions do.

Ah, there we go.

"Jade, you picked a religion-. I won't necessarily be able to resurrect you."

"You couldn't guarantee that anyway. This lets me avoid the worst outcome when I die. And I checked; The Scouring Path lets souls keep fighting after they die if they want. You'll have time to work something out."

"I'm not in a position to fight the S-."

"There isn't a perfect choice. But this works for me."

…

It doesn't work for me.

…

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[Mr Zoat]

Okay, rewritten that part.

 

[Ardy]

Okay, rewritten that part.

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Yay!

 

[boo600]

A few questions, regarding contradictions in the story - or just something that doesn't make sense.

I sigh. I'm going to need to assimilate more demons. I wonder if I can get a warlock to summon some for me?

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Here, Paul makes use of a demon. Specifically, in regards to the Sheeda:

I release my construct-Lantern wraith and deposit it just above the undead.

"Possess one of the Sheeda-faries."

"Gladly, master."

One spine rider simply tries to flee, and the orange spectre swiftly undulates through the air and catches up with it, circles around it and then lunges, passing into its body and causing its eyes to flare with orange light…

No disintegration.

I sigh. I'm going to need to assimilate more demons. I wonder if I can get a warlock to summon some for me?

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Now, I can understand not wanting to mess with Mammon. But he's clearly willing to assimilate beings that are malevolent and otherwise unkillable, and he makes a decision to hunt down some because they're useful. Then he just… never does.

I suppose the answer is that it fell by the wayside, and that he forgot - though that's still frustrating given that he has a perfect memory, and once the Sheeda invasion is over, at least, he has free time. And non-aligned, mindless monsters like the Hellwraith are probably available in Hell outside of the territory of the demons aligned with him; going on a hunting trip incognito, or just summoning generic weak demons (like the Praexis demons, who could eat magic and do other things with it, making them uniquely useful for Paul before they were destroyed.)

Actually, let's focus on the Praexis demons. How useful are they? Besides being self-replicating constructs, meaning he can get more without even needing to assimilate more?

This useful:

"Item one is an ancient Human magic user with a soul made out of Hell magic. Item two is a pair of wings cut from a high-end Angel. I need to know how to fuse the magics of-" Sephtian starts laughing and twitching, his right hand wiggling backwards and forwards and sending him in a circle. I think he's been drinking. "-the wings with the demonoid without destroying her. This is made more complex by the fact that she's empowering herself using a pocket Hell containing thousands of tormented souls. Ideally I'd like a way to release them somewhere as part of the process."

My escort's tentacles are hanging straight down now. "Is that all?"

"Um… I was wondering… If it would be possible to include scry-ward tattoos like mine? Since you're essentially going to have to recreate her soul from nothing without killing her, I thought you-" The whole room is staring at me. "-could..?"

An Eel-man standing toward the back of the cluster in the library puts his right hand to his mouth. "Do you have a thaumatic break down of the demonoid's power?"

I shake my right hand, causing three Praexis Demons to fall out of my ring. "No, but they do, and the woman herself is available for consultations." Ah… "But that will have to be on the surface; her abilities don't lend themselves to the aquatic life and she's loath to leave a heavily warded environment."

The Praexis Demons give up on trying to waddle through the water. Instead, two of them pick up the third and throw him at the cluster around the library entrance. That provokes a sharp bit of backing up as it lands, tilts back its head and opens its cavernous mouth. A floating wisp of purple/red flame emerges from the back of its throat, and after a moment's delay the guests' hands rise, tattoos glow and invocations get muttered.

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They can let him use magic indirectly, letting him interact with it (where he normally can't, bar eating it all with FEED ME!), and without spending effort learning what Orange Magic (unique to his Orange Soul) looks like.

With him actually planning to hunt down some demons, it seems… strange, for that to never happen.




Second question, and this is the actual contradiction:

John might not be able to kill people without specific Guardian authorisation, but he can shield other people while they do it. And he can beat someone nearly to death and then leave them for someone else to finish off. And… If the Sheeda start using mass entropic ray fire on the refugees, he… Probably couldn't stop that. I could.

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Here, we see that - barring Guardian Direct Authorization - green lanterns can't kill.

In Cold Iron.

Then later, in the same arc:

As Diana steps closer the woman shifts, flesh rippling as she dives for Diana, claws shimmering-!

Jordan and I put ring-bolts through her head as Diana stabs her through the chest, her claws failing to penetrate Diana's armour.

"Changelings. We'll have to check all prisoners."

Jordan raises his ring. "Barry, come in."

"Guys, get here now."

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But they're time travelers, and maybe he got authorization?

But then:

Thaal Sinestro hasn't actually committed all that many crimes on Earth.

Considering.

He also… I haven't been able to establish a pattern of behaviour. When I first arrived on this Earth, I wondered which version of… Each person I met I was dealing with. Goofy, silver aged Batman or serious modern Batman. Dr. Fries motivated by a desire to cure his wife, or just another criminal arsehole. Brain damaged Guy Gardner or arrogant git Guy Gardner. And it was mostly pretty easy to work out. I only got confused when I got a version I didn't recognise from anywhere, or a character superhero I'd never heard of, like Icon or Hardware.

Comic Sinestro has two very distinct phases. The early 'I-just-love-being-evil', exists purely to dick around with Jordan phase, and the later Sinestro Corps Order Through Fear stage. So when I checked the record and found out that he had spent a significant amount of time fighting Jordan at a relatively early point in Jordan's career, I… I thought I'd dodged a bullet. Because there's no obvious way for the first version to morph into the later one. He's effectively a new character. I mean, the second one was more of a threat so I kept an eye out, an eye that has now seen everything that I need to know that I'm definitely dealing with Sinestwo now.

And that's why I'm reluctant to contact him. Ah, one of the reasons. I can't explain the change. Which means that I can't explain his motives. Green Lanterns aren't banned from using lethal force, it's just heavily discouraged, so he wasn't picking a fight to get that rule changed. So is he still just plain evil but with backup? Just.. acting out early on? Messing with Jordan as some sort of training exercise?

I don't know.

And I'm not going to find out standing here waiting for Batman to have a breakthrough.

"Illustres to Sinestro. Please respond."

I glance through the wall. Batman's… I think he's getting there, but I don't know if it'll be quick enough. I-.

"Illustres." Sinestro's face appears over my ring, his face carefully in neutral. "This is unexpected. To what do I owe the pleasure?"

"Apokoliptians are covering Earth in Anti-Life. I've got a solution, but it requires a yellow power ring."

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(Some context left in, to make it easy to grasp when these are happening. Meeting the Atlanteans for Angelika, the Sheeda war, the anti-life, etc).

Anyways, I don't… see a way to make the last quote mesh with the others. And there were… I think a few other places where it was indicated, one way or another, that Green Lanterns can or can't kill, like Jack Chance. Is there a single narrative explanation that I'm missing, or are these inconsistencies/mistakes/things I'm misreading outright?

 

[Signaller]

@Zoat, as a point of policy, when we spot things like this do you want us to propose solutions, or leave that up to you?

For example:

Now, I can understand not wanting to mess with Mammon. But he's clearly willing to assimilate beings that are malevolent and otherwise unkillable, and he makes a decision to hunt down some because they're useful. Then he just… never does.

I suppose the answer is that it fell by the wayside, and that he forgot - though that's still frustrating given that he has a perfect memory

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Maybe Paul's perfect memory only works when he wants it to?

 

[boo600]

I mean, I'm happy to help if that's helpful and not presumptuous, but the demon quote at least makes it clear he doesn't like them (his reaction to the Hellwraith - a shade of a person twisted by hell until their soul was unrecoverable - being destroyed was 'couldn't have happened to a nicer demon.'); it's just that he planned on getting more demons anyways, and they're useful enough (magic manipulation, working on spine riders where nothing else did) that it seems… well, like Superman refusing to talk to Jor-El for a decade about kryptonite, the thing that blew up the planet he came from. You know, the disaster he foresaw. From the substance Karsta recognized. Because it was harmful, and they had protection devices. Like the one Paul gave Superman. That he took from Superman's Fortress.

It makes sense, character-wise, for Earth-16 Superman to run away from stuff that makes him uncomfortable (like his weaknesses, Kon, or what Fate was doing to the Zataras). But it sucks to deal with, and it's clearly a flaw. For something this big, I'd expect Paul to have to confront this, and go 'and my moral lesson today is that Assimilation is Awesome!' Or at least confront his apparent fear of becoming too powerful for the story to handle.

But then he assimilates the Apokolips squad, or the Hydra Heads, or Gary, and it's not… he didn't overcome anything. So why not… hunt down some uncontrollable, nigh-unkillable monsters with useful abilities - specially magic ones, that cover his weaknesses - and assimilate them? (Like demons. Who he can have summoned at will by Ambrose, if not John)

It's just too big, coming up again and again, and the only reason I can see is Doylist - because it makes the writing harder. Which is fine, but he's not Sworn-Off-Assimilation like Grayven explicitly noted he was (when mind-controlling Melmoth before leaving the Sheeda in the future), and it's just… so useful. And he's aware it's useful, because it covers his explicit weaknesses, and he's seen it do that. Without having to enslave people.

(And he's willing to enslave people, like Satanus - but that's at least a Godzilla Threshold kind of thing, which makes sense).

Gah. I was intending to write about how I like the story and there's characterization sense in it with the demon thing, and how the only real inconsistency is the Lantern Thing (and I could be reading that wrong, though I'm not sure how), but the assimilation keeps bothering me. When he had the Praexis demons and just didn't use them often, that was fine, same as the Hellwraith, but this is just… too big for the way he forgets about it. It's a core ability! And he has access to near-mindless animalistic demons! Who are malevolent by nature! And I don't think Gary can help him with carrying and conveying mystical energies like they could, or possess spine-rider equivalents! And he's been through the situations, and knows he's lost the tools that helped him through them - he couldn't kickstart the Angelica discussion, or take over a spine rider, today! Those aren't lethal missteps, but they are a clear reduction in capability, like losing a mage-slayer - and hellish politics shouldn't be enough to stop him in this case, because both of the demons he used were at the bottom of the totem pole in power and intelligence!

…I'm going to go slam my head into a wall until I can keep the dumbass ranting inside of it.

 

[Mr Zoat]

A few questions, regarding contradictions in the story - or just something that doesn't make sense.

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Aaaaaaaarrrrrhhhhhh...​

Here, Paul makes use of a demon. Specifically, in regards to the Sheeda:

Now, I can understand not wanting to mess with Mammon. But he's clearly willing to assimilate beings that are malevolent and otherwise unkillable, and he makes a decision to hunt down some because they're useful. Then he just… never does.

I suppose the answer is that it fell by the wayside, and that he forgot - though that's still frustrating given that he has a perfect memory, and once the Sheeda invasion is over, at least, he has free time. And non-aligned, mindless monsters like the Hellwraith are probably available in Hell outside of the territory of the demons aligned with him; going on a hunting trip incognito, or just summoning generic weak demons (like the Praexis demons, who could eat magic and do other things with it, making them uniquely useful for Paul before they were destroyed.)

Actually, let's focus on the Praexis demons. How useful are they? Besides being self-replicating constructs, meaning he can get more without even needing to assimilate more?

This useful:

They can let him use magic indirectly, letting him interact with it (where he normally can't, bar eating it all with FEED ME!), and without spending effort learning what Orange Magic (unique to his Orange Soul) looks like.

With him actually planning to hunt down some demons, it seems… strange, for that to never happen.

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Let's say... He mentioned the idea to any of the people that he runs ideas past, and they reacted negatively to the idea of exposing him to more demon magic.

Second question, and this is the actual contradiction:

Here, we see that - barring Guardian Direct Authorization - green lanterns can't kill.

In Cold Iron.

Then later, in the same arc:

But they're time travelers, and maybe he got authorization?

But then:

(Some context left in, to make it easy to grasp when these are happening. Meeting the Atlanteans for Angelika, the Sheeda war, the anti-life, etc).

Anyways, I don't… see a way to make the last quote mesh with the others. And there were… I think a few other places where it was indicated, one way or another, that Green Lanterns can or can't kill, like Jack Chance. Is there a single narrative explanation that I'm missing, or are these inconsistencies/mistakes/things I'm misreading outright?

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They got authorisation for the sheeda. 'Authorisation' is a shoot on sight thing. In theory, killing someone without that is prohibited, but in practice, if they were bad enough and otherwise containing them was impractical, the punishment is so light that it's effectively allowed. On the other hand, Jack Chance's normal 'I'm going to kill every asshole in this room' is usually an automatic booting out of the Corps thing.

In the old comics, Jack's deal was supposed to be an exception from normal operational procedure, but then you look at how they fought the Anti-Green Lantern Corps and it appears that it's not quite that universal. Because they just slaughtered them.

@Zoat, as a point of policy, when we spot things like this do you want us to propose solutions, or leave that up to you?

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Fill your boots.

 

[boo600]

They got authorisation for the sheeda. 'Authorisation' is a shoot on sight thing. In theory, killing someone without that is prohibited, but in practice, if they were bad enough and otherwise containing them was impractical, the punishment is so light that it's effectively allowed. On the other hand, Jack Chance's normal 'I'm going to kill every asshole in this room' is usually an automatic booting out of the Corps thing.

In the old comics, Jack's deal was supposed to be an exception from normal operational procedure, but then you look at how they fought the Anti-Green Lantern Corps and it appears that it's not quite that universal. Because they just slaughtered them.

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I… yes, that's why I said 'maybe he got authorization?' I can square those two together.

The reason I said 'but then' and then quoted Paul saying that killing is discouraged, but allowed is - how does that work out? Did he simply mean that Sinestro should be happy because killing is allowed at all? Because Sinestro campaigning to allow lethal force outside of pre-approved situations (such as if things turn violent beyond nonlethal force's control, or in the case of nuclear war/demon invasion/spider guilders/etc) seems like a possibility, and Paul (in the quote during the Anti-Life finishing arc) discounts that.

Also, thank you for the WoG. I appreciate the Demon thing; it's been driving me nuts. And imagining Jade arching her eyebrow and reminding him of his Mammonite episode is funny to me. "More hell-Magic? Really? More demons?"

…I still wish he'd get a magic-capable minion, but most of those aren't going to be sub-sapient atrocity maximizers, so assimilation's off the table! Plus, he's got Ambrose.


One more for the road:

"Illustres."

"Clarissi."

No facial projection. That's usually a fifty-fifty with Dox, and I haven't noticed a particular pattern. I assume it's based on whether he's working on something he actually needs to look at or not.

"Slight problem."

"I am aware that Manga Khan resigned. The fleet which you requested remains en-route to Earth and you already have the authority to replace him."

"He quit after the outermost planet in our system turned out to have a Mother Star inside it. In point of fact it was mostly Mother Star by mass. The Mother Star is dead and we think we got all of the rest of the Star Conquerors. The Mother Star's corpse is currently in-system. Sending scans now."

"A shame that no record of the bioengineers who created these macroorganisms exists."

"Preliminary investigations suggest that it was magic. I'm still looking into how it was achieved. Do we have any telepathic Lanterns available?"

"Lantern Nax may become available in the future, but at the moment I need her to focus on countering Reach bio-infiltration techniques. The L.E.G.I.O.N. xenology team will have to suffice for now."

I nod.

"I'm sure we'll cope. Earth is getting the expertise required, but we're still organising things. Is the fleet briefed on the Sheeda?"

"The limited information you assembled was included in their briefing documents. Do you have any information indicating that their return is imminent?"

"Depends what you mean by imminent. I'd say 'yes', but given the time frame involved and the recent incident with Krona that could be years away. The only good news is that it can't have already happened."

"If I thought that anyone understood what changes you made at Vanishing Point I would accuse you of misusing your language's temporal tenses."

"I can't give away what I don't know. Though I do know a couple of time travellers if you want me to try and get a more helpful answer."

"Do so. You should strongly consider them as recruitment candidates."

"I.. don't think either of them like me well enough for me to want to risk giving them a power ring."

"Work on them. We may require their expertise."

I nod. "Since the Sheeda are time travellers, I might be able to persuade them to cooperate that way. It's not in either of their interests for our civilisation to be destroyed."

"Whatever you think best."

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Doo doo de doo…

"Illustres to L.E.G.I.O.N. theatre command."

A grey-skinned humanoid who looks a little like a yautja who had a run-in with a disc sander appears on in the holoprojector in front of me.

"Illustres."

"Earth is presently under attack by time-travelling magic-using harvesters. I am requesting that you make best possible time to Earth. We need your sensors and strike-weaponry."

"My orders make no mention of this. My flotilla is simply coming to protect one small city."

"That's Earth for you, I'm afraid. The bizarre doesn't stop." I sigh. "I'm not in your chain of command, so I can't issue you orders. If you think that your ships can't meaningfully assist, or that your orders don't give you the authority to make that decision yourself, I can't gainsay them. However, if that's the case, then I'm going to suggest that you turn around and fly back to Maltus, because you clearly aren't up to being in this system. Time travellers, psychics and weapons far more advanced than the locals should have just happen here. What's it going to be?"

"We will require additional information."

"I'll relay it to you as I receive it. I'll look forward to your arrival, captain."

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I mean, the last bit makes sense - the situation on the ground - but Dox said they'd been given info on the Sheeda existing, even if they didn't know their capabilities. (Which makes sense; don't send military forces into a war zone without warning them of potential conflicts that could happen).

Did he send a… different fleet? And… not inform the new one… for reasons? Or… did they not read their briefing documents…? I doubt a coluan with a power ring would make such a basic mistake with data management; maybe he thought they were more professional than they were…?