1. Due to issues with external spam filters, QQ is currently unable to send any mail to Microsoft E-mail addresses. This includes any account at live.com, hotmail.com or msn.com. Signing up to the forum with one of these addresses will result in your verification E-mail never arriving. For best results, please use a different E-mail provider for your QQ address.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. For prospective new members, a word of warning: don't use common names like Dennis, Simon, or Kenny if you decide to create an account. Spammers have used them all before you and gotten those names flagged in the anti-spam databases. Your account registration will be rejected because of it.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Since it has happened MULTIPLE times now, I want to be very clear about this. You do not get to abandon an account and create a new one. You do not get to pass an account to someone else and create a new one. If you do so anyway, you will be banned for creating sockpuppets.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. If you wish to change your username, please ask via conversation to tehelgee instead of asking via my profile. I'd like to not clutter it up with such requests.
    Dismiss Notice
  5. Due to the actions of particularly persistent spammers and trolls, we will be banning disposable email addresses from today onward.
    Dismiss Notice
  6. A note about the current Ukraine situation: Discussion of it is still prohibited as per Rule 8
    Dismiss Notice
  7. The rules regarding NSFW links have been updated. See here for details.
    Dismiss Notice
  8. The testbed for the QQ XF2 transition is now publicly available. Please see more information here.
    Dismiss Notice

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Discussion in 'Creative Writing' started by Mr Zoat, Jan 27, 2019.

Loading...
  1. Maxx Crowley

    Maxx Crowley I trust you know where the happy button is?

    Joined:
    May 10, 2017
    Messages:
    873
    Likes Received:
    4,339
    I'm...pretty sure we've already had a discussion just like this over on the last board.

    I've also been forced to go through Conversion "Therapy" for the purposes of making teh gay into godly straightness. So...I'm pretty much in the "Just shoot me" rather then the whole...take apart my brain and fill it with you deem acceptable. Just a puppet on strings, smiling when you say, and dancing to the tune you've forced upon me.

    Death of personality IS death. That's my position, and I'm sticking to it.
     
  2. Queshire

    Queshire Not too sore, are you?

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2019
    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    2,771
    That's fair. Personally I'd be in the camp that'd be doing it to myself to try and see what sort of transhuman monstrosity I could become.
     
    Vorian likes this.
  3. Buggy123

    Buggy123 I trust you know where the happy button is?

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2019
    Messages:
    504
    Likes Received:
    3,749
    Possibly, but I honestly can't remember it.

    I agree with you there, death of personality is death, it's just a question of where you draw the line as I see it. If you set the line at "literally any change", then by definition you die countless times every single day, every time you go to sleep, etc, as your personality ever so gradually changes and shifts.

    If you set the bar any higher, then that opens up the possibility for it to change without dying, and at that point that means that its technically possible for mental editing to be done without killing someone, even if it may not be possible to change enough to make them not-a-murderer or other such thing. The only way you could define this as still killing someone without nonsensical conclusions like "a million different people inhabit your body and die every single day" is to say that mind-editing specifically always causes death, regardless of other factors.



    That, is a substantially more complicated problem.

    You're essentially saying "if humans could do this sort of stuff, they'd do awful things with it." And you're absolutely right. The reason I don't see that as a reason to throw the whole thing out is simple:
    Humans will do awful things with absolutely everything. Because humans are terrible.

    I could easily make a argument that humans should never be allowed to have sporks, PB&J sandwiches, free will, or tubas. As I see it, literally nothing we're talking about applies or can apply to humans, humanity, Earth, etc in reality, because by default everything and everyone here is always going to be awful. Any improvement, idea for a better thing, etc is by definition fictional and non-applicable to us.
     
  4. hkim

    hkim Know what you're doing yet?

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2018
    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    599
    If I remember right, the trouble with gates in outer space was that there's no magic in outer space. If you put the gates somewhere there is magic, you're gucci.
     
  5. Threadmarks: Ways and Means (supplementary, Renegade option)
    Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2016
    Messages:
    14,696
    Likes Received:
    729,112
    24th January
    15:12 GMT -5


    "Grayven." Ms Lane looks up at me while her colleagues in the Daily Planet office try to pretend they're not rubbernecking. "What do you want?"

    "I need to get hold of Superman really quickly. Would you mind if I threw you off the building?"

    She tilts her head to the left, her eyes narrowing. "Oh har. Did you come here just to make that joke?"

    "No. Actually, I wanted to try interesting you in a project I've got going on."

    She shrugs. "There's no way Horne can lose the election."

    "That's what they said about-."

    "Jonathan Horne is the one politician I'd actually believe if he told me those girls were in his room to 'get some ice'."

    I snigger. Yeah, that was… Not the most credible denial ever. "That reminds me of a joke about John Major-."

    "Who?"

    Oh. Rrright, he doesn't exist here. "A British politician from Earth Prime. But if you don't know who he is, it.. falls rather flat. The reason I'm here is that one of my ongoing projects is to try and… Not rehabilitate so much as refocus certain types of criminal-."

    "Like Lex Luthor."

    "Ah… I don't believe that he's been convicted-" I nod. "-but I did have to have words with him at one point. And now he's being far more rational about how he applies himself."

    "He's getting a space fleet."

    "Nothing illegal about a private citizen building spaceships. And a great many people are benefiting from the cheaper electricity."

    "There is something illegal about it if those ships are armed."

    "I believe that he intends to build an office on the dark side of the moon, register the ships to the lunar nation and then install the guns. And given what you know of Superman's career, are you really going to try to argue that Earth doesn't need a self-defence force?"

    "He's founding his own country?"

    "It's an interesting bypass. The government of the United States is obliged to enforce the Outer Space Treaty upon its citizens. But if Lex registers all of the guns to a non-terrestrial polity, does it apply?"

    "He's still a US citizen. Unless he's planning on renouncing his citizenship?"

    "I doubt it-. At least, not in the immediate future. I suppose that if he ever gets to the point where he's spending most of his time in space he might consider it…" I shake my head. "I don't have any special knowledge there."

    "But Luthor's fleet is definitely going to be armed."

    "Yes, and with all sorts of fascinating weapons." I smile. "You humans can be so creative! It's a marvel. But if we can return to the reason I'm here..?"

    "Rehabilitation. Like you did with Black Adam."

    "Theodore Adam and Teth Adom are different men. Do you blame Superman for the things he's done while under the influence?"

    "He murdered Kahndaq's government after he stopped being controlled."

    I smile self-depreciatingly. "I'm hardly one to criticise that."

    "What is happening to the British government?"

    "The coalition government? They'll remain-."

    "No, the one you deposed."

    "That.. won't be decided until after the next General Election. I understand that Mister Talbot wants them charged under pre-existing laws. I'd just have killed them all, but it isn't my decision."

    And if anything disproves the idea that Red Lanterns are mindless berserkers, that's it. He didn’t even hesitate when the technically-not-acting Prime Minister asked him about it.

    "And exactly who else have you rehabilitated?"

    "Circe." Ms Lane blinks, then her eyes narrow slightly. "I'm a little surprised more hasn't been made of that."

    "Circe. The witch who turns men into animal-men."

    "She doesn't do that any more, and she turned back-" Most of. "-the ones she had."

    "I don't remember hearing anything about her being arrested. Or decapitated."

    "She behaved erratically due to a curse that had been placed upon her. Once I worked out how to bypass the curse, she no longer felt the need to."

    "So she gets off scot free."

    I shrug. "Despite what you might think, I'm not particularly vengeful. I'm a pragmatist. I killed Klarion because there was no way he was going to be anything other than a murderous little shit. I don't see the point in trying to rehabilitate people who can't be rehabilitated. And I'm a little frustrated that I had to have Mister Tuckman oppose plans to give Mister Napier bionic limbs." I shake my head in frustration. "Honestly, what sort of idiot thinks that giving the Joker new arms is a good idea?"

    "You might have to rip them off again."

    "If I'd ripped them off he'd be dead. I crushed them. Anyway, there's someone new I'm working with at the moment, and I was wondering if you'd like to meet them."

    "I can get interviews with Luthor any day of the week."

    "I'm sure that you can. I wasn't talking about him."

    "Fine. Who is it this time?"

    "Black Manta."

    She frowns. "Who?"

    24th January
    23:21 GMT +3


    Ms Lane follows me through the boom tube onto the… Bridge of the oil tanker. Two of Mr Hyde's soldiers are guarding the bridge, a third has the captain under guard while several members of his crew man the stations. Mr Hyde gives Ms Lane a moment to take in her environment before he turns away from the bridge window.

    "Ms Lane."

    "Black Manta. I don't think companies pay ransoms on oil tankers any more."

    "Actually, they do and then say they don't. But I won't be ransoming The Queen's Grace." He reaches up and takes off his helmet. I felt that visual transition was quite important; show himself as a supervillain changing into something else. "They were cleaning out their oil tanks at sea; illegally dumping hundreds of gallons of waste oil."

    "And you care about that since when?"

    "I'm a mercenary, Ms Lane. I don't care about anything except my crew unless someone's paying me to."

    "Grayven said he was trying to rehabilitate you."

    "Grayven wants me to take legal jobs. Which I can't do at the moment because I've got international arrest warrants on me."

    "You attacked the capital of Atlantis."

    "I got hired by one side in a civil war. Whatever King Orin likes to think, Orm had plenty of support in Atlantis. If Orm had won, I'd have had a major payday. He lost, so I'm a criminal."

    "You were a criminal before that."

    "I was a mercenary before that. Or a.. private security operative, if you want to be polite about it. Governments say all kinds of things are against the law, except when they're the ones doing them."

    "So what's this about?"

    "This is a sign I'm willing to go legitimate. Useful work for the community."

    "Which you're getting paid for."

    "If you think Grayven's paying me as much as I could get for quietly ransoming an oil tanker, you've got another thing coming. But I've reached the point in my life where the prospect of spending all my time in a submarine isn't as appealing as it used to be. I'm trying to show that I'm willing to limit myself to legitimate work."

    "If you get let off all your crimes."

    "I'm willing to negotiate. But I don't want to pretend I've had some kind of moral revelation here." He shrugs. "It's a move from high risk high reward to low risk low reward. The costs of staying outside the law have mounted up and I'd rather stop paying them."

    I smile. Mr Hyde isn't one of the world's greatest speakers, but he's sticking to our agreed angle. I send the files on the ship to the relevant port authorities, then step back towards the boom tube.

    "I'll leave you two to get better acquainted. Back in an hour."
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
  6. doug89

    doug89 Versed in the lewd.

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2017
    Messages:
    2,134
    Likes Received:
    28,797
    Cue Superman smashing into the bridge of the tanker to 'rescue' Lane.
     
  7. Handlewithcare

    Handlewithcare Versed in the lewd.

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2019
    Messages:
    1,289
    Likes Received:
    12,978
    I still don't get why Grayven is so invested in him.
     
    Maxx Crowley and Mastigos2 like this.
  8. Queshire

    Queshire Not too sore, are you?

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2019
    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    2,771
    *Shrug* How big of an investment is it really?
     
  9. Jormuungaand

    Jormuungaand Out of work World Serpent

    Joined:
    May 9, 2019
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    174
    Humans are also wonderful. Antibiotics. Red Cross, Habitat for Humanity. Electricity. Beethoven’s symphonies. Pizza. I could go on. We’ve created some real wonders too. Don’t get hung up on the negatives.

    Good question. I always thought he was a minor fringe villain. I’m not all that conversant as a lot of readers however, so I may be missing something fairly well known quite easily.
     
    Cuchulin and Alexandercctv like this.
  10. Ardy

    Ardy I trust you know where the happy button is?

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2017
    Messages:
    641
    Likes Received:
    3,471
    If he succeeds, he gets a moderately competent mercenary of which he already had plenty through Scandal Savage.

    If he fails, he gets this thrown in his face every time he tries to get someone else on his side.

    Seems high risk, low reward, to me.
     
  11. Oglymogly

    Oglymogly I trust you know where the happy button is?

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2017
    Messages:
    565
    Likes Received:
    3,677
    Remember, Black Manta approached the Light wanting a seat at the table. Grayven "subtly" turned him away and asked what he wanted. Now he is trying to give him that while also fitting him into Grayven's vision of how the world should work. And hopefully he'll be a example other villains can follow in the future.

    Beyond that, he is removing a potential wild card from interfering with one of the Light's bases of operation. If Black Manta was simply turned away from having a seat, he could attack or inconvenience Venturia or implicate Queen Clea with a attack elsewhere.

    Also, if Aquaman actually starts using Black Manta as deniable assets, Grayven would have a way to track or influence those black op missions. Very doubtful to happen, but possible. Always take free shots when you can, they just might score.
     
    Drode, Hell's Razer, BBJimmy and 6 others like this.
  12. FreeGod

    FreeGod If you see a God on the road fuck it!

    Joined:
    May 26, 2016
    Messages:
    8,526
    Likes Received:
    15,126
    I really don't understand why Grayven is going to bat for him. Black Mantis isn't anything special. Grayven could make 10 more like him in a week.

    Just hire some sailors and give them subs with good auto pilot.
     
    Ardy likes this.
  13. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2016
    Messages:
    14,696
    Likes Received:
    729,112
    No, Grayven actually can't conjure up veteran mercenaries without any effort. He could make some, but that would require considerable time and oversight.
     
  14. Vaermina

    Vaermina Well worn.

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2015
    Messages:
    5,521
    Likes Received:
    20,837
    Yes, because international law says a private citizen can't legally own any part of the moon.

    And that includes founding a country on said moon.
     
    nobodez and Handlewithcare like this.
  15. FreeGod

    FreeGod If you see a God on the road fuck it!

    Joined:
    May 26, 2016
    Messages:
    8,526
    Likes Received:
    15,126
    It's not like veteran mercenaries are in that short supply if DC is anything like earth prime.
    International law is always somewhat flexible until it is actually enforced.
     
    Drode, Blackshard, Ardy and 7 others like this.
  16. Queshire

    Queshire Not too sore, are you?

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2019
    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    2,771
    Ahahaha, I've been thinking of work arounds too, and while I'm sure it wouldn't work in real life I still like the idea megacorps settling the moon instead of individual countries. Of course, that may just be because I like the idea of a major metropolis being called the city of Apple-Google
     
    nobodez and w34v3r like this.
  17. Chojin Patriarch

    Chojin Patriarch Veteran Lurker

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2019
    Messages:
    2,149
    Likes Received:
    33,437
    Hey, it's worked when she wanted an interview with him, once or twice.

    Starting to get suspicious. No one's that squeaky clean.

    I see Lex has all the angles worked out.

    'United Space'? Wot?

    Lovely Earth Bullshit Technology.

    From what we saw of them, that was a public service...

    Cold rage is always more potent than hot.

    A 'Curse'. Only in comic books would that be believable :)

    ...Seriously? Are the staff of Arkham Asylum idiots with no pattern recog-... Oh, right.

    "I can get interviews with Luthor any day of the week."

    Ouch. That says something about Hyde's rep.

    Sums up Atlantean politics nicely.

    Sounds nice...

    "I'm willing to negotiate. But I don't want to pretend...

    Ah, pragmatism.

    ...You did make sure Superman isn't on his way, didn't you?

    Looks like the 'reform Manta' quest is progressing nicely.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2019
  18. Oglymogly

    Oglymogly I trust you know where the happy button is?

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2017
    Messages:
    565
    Likes Received:
    3,677
    If it came down to it, Grayven could just grab some good sized asteroids, fuse them solid, set it up in orbit with a space station on it. Nations can be built on artificial land masses.
     
  19. Khettien

    Khettien Perpetually confused

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2016
    Messages:
    442
    Likes Received:
    3,698
    To be fair, every one of those has a down side, as well - even with the symphonies, we've made muzak of them and then made that into hold music and ringtones - and I'm pretty sure Beethoven would have killed the people responsible if he'd known that's how his compositions would be used. He had some pretty strong feelings on the proper way to listen to music.
     
  20. Mquz

    Mquz Versed in the lewd.

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2018
    Messages:
    2,117
    Likes Received:
    8,242
    You know, considering this is the joker, he might wind up getting some sort of psychic powers to let him move around due to narrative convenience.
     
    DrThoth likes this.
  21. TheEyes

    TheEyes Well worn.

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2018
    Messages:
    5,045
    Likes Received:
    49,808
    That seems wiser anyway: build a fuel depot in L2 and a city in L5 on artificial landmasses. Leave the Moon alone until someone, or more likely several someones, can be absolutely certain it isn't being used as a prison to hold a magical dark matter entity or something (it's DC; it could happen).
     
  22. Handlewithcare

    Handlewithcare Versed in the lewd.

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2019
    Messages:
    1,289
    Likes Received:
    12,978
    That one is the only one that actually makes sense to me.

    Grayven is rather straining his relationship with Orin and others and the only way to justify that would be with a potential payoff like that.
     
    WhiteNoise, Prince Charon and w34v3r like this.
  23. Simonbob

    Simonbob Really? You don't say.

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2014
    Messages:
    1,003
    Likes Received:
    11,009
    Sure, and upsides to most of the less plesant things we've made and done.

    There were a fair number of medical breakthroughs as a result of the horrors the Nazi's did unto their victims, for example.
     
  24. Valint

    Valint I trust you know where the happy button is?

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2018
    Messages:
    799
    Likes Received:
    4,951
    I was assuming it was the Aqualad connection. In the same way that Grayven did a better job than Paragon at getting Superboy a family, giving Kaldur a chance to connect with his father is perhaps worth at least some minimal effort to him.
     
  25. Vaermina

    Vaermina Well worn.

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2015
    Messages:
    5,521
    Likes Received:
    20,837
    Assume for a moment that anything any of us can think up in five minutes to get around something has already been thought up and countered by lawyers who have spent decades making laws about these sorts of things...
     
  26. Aeess

    Aeess I trust you know where the happy button is?

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2018
    Messages:
    632
    Likes Received:
    3,595
    Cant he just have Dubbilex make some and give them some personality adjustments similar to William Harper.
     
  27. Jormuungaand

    Jormuungaand Out of work World Serpent

    Joined:
    May 9, 2019
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    174
    Just Luna, or are moons further out off limits too? Mars is occupied, Mercury is too hot, Venus is a horrible atmosphere, not worth trying to build in burning hot acid.(Even with Sivana there already) I challenge even schitzo-tech to find something to land ON on the gas giants. Pluto is inconvenient. Asteroids have already been mentioned, so, moons.
     
    Prince Charon likes this.
  28. Mr Zoat

    Mr Zoat Dedicated ragequitter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2016
    Messages:
    14,696
    Likes Received:
    729,112
    Thank you, corrected.
    It's more 'reform' Manta, really.
     
  29. Buggy123

    Buggy123 I trust you know where the happy button is?

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2019
    Messages:
    504
    Likes Received:
    3,749
    At some point you have to put your foot down and say "look, tiny little blue-green ball, you do not have jurisdiction over the entire universe. I am going to build here and if you have such a big issue with it, come up here and make me leave."

    Bah, that's only if you keep thinking inside the box. Venus is actually a fairly good candidate for colonization with floating habitats. Jupiter is... less viable, not so much because you couldn't copy that same concept to a gas giant, but rather because it's really fucking radioactive, to the point that you wouldn't be worrying so much about cancer because you'd die long before that becomes a issue.
     
  30. Ardy

    Ardy I trust you know where the happy button is?

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2017
    Messages:
    641
    Likes Received:
    3,471
    He has Scandal Savage, who ran her own damn mercenary group! This should not be that hard!
     
    DrThoth likes this.
Loading...