With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Handlewithcare]

I mean, considering Paul's primary shtick is being an asshole about how the League members have a responsibility to do everything they can, just because they can,

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The League chose to do what it does. All he wants is for them to do it competenly and reasonable.

 

[Grimnar]

Is the Team assigned to deal with the issue? If not then literally not his job.

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It's not Clark Kents job to deal with flooding in Africa, he's a damn reporter. It's not Bruce Wayne's job to deal with thugs in gotham, It's not Olliver Queens job to deal with crime in Star City.

They Chose to be more, to make the stuff that isn't their problem, thier problem to deal with.

This is 100% OL's problem and he dserves shit for his downright petulant behaviour, but he won't because he's an SI.

 

[BlueMangoAdea]

It's not Clark Kents job to deal with flooding in Africa, he's a damn reporter. It's not Bruce Wayne's job to deal with thugs in gotham, It's not Olliver Queens job to deal with crime in Star City.

They Chose to be more, to make the stuff that isn't their problem, thier problem to deal with.

This is 100% OL's problem and he dserves shit for his downright petulant behaviour, but he won't because he's an SI.

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Not... really? OL judged that letting conventional humanity deal with the problem themselves would be the better option than dealing it by himself.

 

[Idkusername]

The League chose to do what it does. All he wants is for them to do it competenly and reasonable.

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^^This. And the fact that he wants them to actually work towards the super-important mandate given to them that they voluntarily accepted and that no one else can do, just because they're too scared of the slippery slope. I can agree with Batman not kiling, or other stuff like that because there is moral reason that makes sense, that individuals shouldn't have that kind of power, and even if Batman was born of necessity, his desperate measures still have reasonable force.

In this case, they have been given the authority, nay, the responsibility of Earth's planetary defences, and they're twiddling their thumbs. Even a diplomatic meeting such as this which really is the kiddie pool of interplanetary relations, they;re trying to avoid instead of actually dealing with it, by giving the actual governments a kick up their arses.

What the League, and the audience, is falling prey to, is the action bias, the fact that any action looks better than inaction. If a footballer will kick a ball into the goal with it having an equal probability of going in the middle or either of the sides, the goalie will always be blamed if he didn't move, even though diving to the sides would still have given the same chance of success.

 

[Grimnar]

Not... really? OL judged that letting conventional humanity deal with the problem themselves would be the better option than dealing it by himself.

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He literally caused this to happen. They are here as part of a treaty he brokered, under an Authority he helped create, aided by a power he helped to spread.

Everything is 100% his fault and he needs to stick his oar in and Fucking Sort It.

 

[Idkusername]

It's not Clark Kents job to deal with flooding in Africa, he's a damn reporter. It's not Bruce Wayne's job to deal with thugs in gotham, It's not Olliver Queens job to deal with crime in Star City.

They Chose to be more, to make the stuff that isn't their problem, thier problem to deal with.

This is 100% OL's problem and he dserves shit for his downright petulant behaviour, but he won't because he's an SI.

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Right. Since you seem to be ignoring my post, let me at least explain to you what that quote actually means. It's All Might saying that being empathetic to others is what a hero is about. If you see someone in pain, help them out. You don't let the drudgery, the apathy, get to you. You see a person who might be in an abusive relationship, you don't disregard him and say, 'not my problem'. In essence, it's saying be empathetic and helpful, and don't fall prey to the bystander effect.

What you are saying is that individuals should take the law into their own hands, that they shouldn't respect the sovereignty of countries and the consent of the governed. That's pretty much the exact opposite of what All Might was trying to say,

 

[Darko]

It's not Clark Kents job to deal with flooding in Africa, he's a damn reporter. It's not Bruce Wayne's job to deal with thugs in gotham, It's not Olliver Queens job to deal with crime in Star City.

They Chose to be more, to make the stuff that isn't their problem, thier problem to deal with.

This is 100% OL's problem and he dserves shit for his downright petulant behaviour, but he won't because he's an SI.

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They chose to take on these extra responsibilities.

Paul chose to let the governments of Earth actually figure out what they will do in this type of situation when superheroes wouldn't and couldn't help them. He's not a traditional superhero, yes he will help out, but not coddle people.

He literally caused this to happen. They are here as part of a treaty he brokered, under an Authority he helped create, aided by a power he helped to spread.

Everything is 100% his fault and he needs to stick his oar in and Fucking Sort It.

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Yes they are here because of what he did, but they would have come irregardless of his actions, they are interested in making money. And if not them then someone else would have come and Earth would be in a similar situation.

Remember the government's have had at least a decade to make plans and they probably haven't done anything that we've seen.

Paul wants to set up systems to help society and he views the world relying on just a few individuals to fix their problems as stupid and impractical.
He compared it to wiping the ass of a physically and mentally healthy adult.

Sometimes a sink or swim approach may be the only thing that can get through people's minds that you need to learn.

 

[Grimnar]

The sheer amount of justifications that fans of a work can come up with boggle the Mind.

What you are saying is that individuals should take the law into their own hands, that they shouldn't respect the sovereignty of countries and the consent of the governed. That's pretty much the exact opposite of what All Might was trying to say,

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HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

This is fucking DC, where being a Superhero ISN'T A FUCKING JOB! Every single one of them takes the law into their own hands and disobeys the government. And when the government cracks down on them, they Do It Anyway. Because they are Hero's and make other peoples problems their own to deal with.

This is Supermans pod doing on a Rampage, shrugging his shoulders and saying it's more of an issue for the DMV to deal with. This is Batman's batmobile barreling through the streets by itself, and him strugging his shoulders and saying that it's the Polices job to deal with it.

 

[BlueMangoAdea]

The sheer amount of justifications that fans of a work can come up with boggle the Mind.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

This is fucking DC, where being a Superhero ISN'T A FUCKING JOB! Every single one of them takes the law into their own hands and disobeys the government. And when the government cracks down on them, they Do It Anyway. Because they are Hero's and make other peoples problems their own to deal with.

This is Supermans pod doing on a Rampage, shrugging his shoulders and saying it's more of an issue for the DMV to deal with. This is Batman's batmobile barreling through the streets by itself, and him strugging his shoulders and saying that it's the Polices job to deal with it.

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And one of Paul's goal is to reduce the necessity of such actions. What's your point?

 

[The Chosen One]

This is Batman's batmobile barreling through the streets by itself, and him strugging his shoulders and saying that it's the Polices job to deal with it.

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Except, in this analogy, OL is Robin, and not actually responsible for the decisions of his superiors, and it's a little weird that everyone is acting like he is.
Paul's been very clear with them all that he is merely a(n incredibly close and powerful) affiliate of the Orange Lantern Corps, having given up responsibility for its operations to a better mind as quickly as possible after founding it. And Aquaman didn't give him shit for that, then, so...

 

[Darko]

The sheer amount of justifications that fans of a work can come up with boggle the Mind.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

This is fucking DC, where being a Superhero ISN'T A FUCKING JOB! Every single one of them takes the law into their own hands and disobeys the government. And when the government cracks down on them, they Do It Anyway. Because they are Hero's and make other peoples problems their own to deal with.

This is Supermans pod doing on a Rampage, shrugging his shoulders and saying it's more of an issue for the DMV to deal with. This is Batman's batmobile barreling through the streets by itself, and him strugging his shoulders and saying that it's the Polices job to deal with it.

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The League works for the UN, they just don't have much oversight.

Paul isn't a traditional hero, please remember that.

If Khan goes on a Rampage without a justified reason Paul would stop.

While Khan's actions may be questionable he hasn't technically broken any laws so there isn't any legal reason for Paul to do anything he doesn't want.

Paul is not a League member and the Team doesn't officially exist.

He also doesn't need to do anything the League tells gim to as the oath with Gaia is done and while he respects them somewhat he doesn't view them as being superior in every single way compared to him.

 

[Rafin]

Paul is avarice-enlightened. What exactly are his wants here, as they relate to the situation? Because whatever they are, it doesn't look like he's been choosing any set of actions that actually facilitate the accomplishment of any goal or goals with any consistency or efficiency.

 

[Grimnar]

Paul's been very clear with them all that he is merely a(n incredibly close and powerful) affiliate of the Orange Lantern Corps, having given up responsibility for its operations to a better mind as quickly as possible after founding it.

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Yes, the same way General Lane is an affiliate of the US Army, and Superman is an Affiliate of the Justice League. To whit, not a fucking affiliate at all, but a senior member.

While Khan's actions may be questionable he hasn't technically broken any laws

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Violation of Australian Airspace, smuggling, and counting.

 

[BlueMangoAdea]

Violation of Australian Airspace, smuggling, and counting.

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...And have breaking those laws actually hurt anyone yet? If things go so bad that his help is actually necessary, OL would step in, but until then, he judged that intervening would be worse than letting Earth learn from practical experiences. You can disagree with his decision, but he is pursuing his motivation pretty consistently.

 

[Darko]

Paul is avarice-enlightened. What exactly are his wants here, as they relate to the situation? Because whatever they are, it doesn't look like he's been choosing any set of actions that actually facilitate the accomplishment of any goal or goals with any consistency or efficiency.

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He wants the Earth то develop methods for dealing with these types of situations without relying on superheroes.
He thinks that helping them when they've had decades to make some solutions on their own won't help then in the long run.

 

[Idkusername]

Yes, the same way General Lane is an affiliate of the US Army, and Superman is an Affiliate of the Justice League. To whit, not a fucking affiliate at all, but a senior member.


Violation of Australian Airspace, smuggling, and counting.

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Look, OL is no more responsible for this situation than a clerk who sold you an item that later turned out to malfunction. He did not make it, he did not package it, he did not deliberately give you the malfunctioning article, he is not responsible for it. He is just an intermediary.

 

[Idkusername]

The sheer amount of justifications that fans of a work can come up with boggle the Mind.

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Right, and you didn't actually respond to the actual argument I was making. Why am I not surprised. Oh, and if you want to be rude and ad hominem, you can fuck right off.

 

[DAT_NOOB]

I did not need one chapter like that in my life and the longer we go without another one the less Zatanna gets traumatized.

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Why would you deny desire Mon-keigh, give in to the lust, the want, the excess. We only want for you to indulge yourself more.

"Traumatized"? From her reaction last time I dare say Zatanna wouldn't be "traumatized" so much as "strangely interested".

(Also for the record I would love more chapters like that in my life)

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This guy gets it, give in to your desires Mon-keigh.

Look, OL is no more responsible for this situation than a clerk who sold you an item that later turned out to malfunction. He did not make it, he did not package it, he did not deliberately give you the malfunctioning article, he is not responsible for it. He is just an intermediary.

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usually those intermediary's offer a replacement if it's broken

 

[Grimnar]

...And have breaking those laws actually hurt anyone yet? If things go so bad that his help is actually necessary, OL would step in, but until then, he judged that intervening would be worse than letting Earth learn from practical experiences. You can disagree with his decision, but he is pursuing his motivation pretty consistently.

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So OL doesn't step in to stop mundane thieves? Oh wait, he does. Other mundane crimes? Oh wait, he does. If he truly thought that was a problem for the mundane authories to deal with he wouldn't involve himself, but he does and has.

He did not make it,

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Yes he did. The Orange Lantern corp is his creation.

he did not package it,

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He made the deal for the ships arrival at Earth.

did not deliberately give you the malfunctioning article,

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He handed out recruitment policy to someone else, which was his decision.

he is not responsible for it. He is just an intermediary.

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Lies.

 

[BlueMangoAdea]

So OL doesn't step in to stop mundane thieves? Oh wait, he does. Other mundane crimes? Oh wait, he does. If he truly thought that was a problem for the mundane authories to deal with he wouldn't involve himself, but he does and has.

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False equivalence. In those situations, he judged his interventions to help more than harm. In this situation, he judged otherwise.

 

[Idkusername]

So OL doesn't step in to stop mundane thieves? Oh wait, he does. Other mundane crimes? Oh wait, he does. If he truly thought that was a problem for the mundane authories to deal with he wouldn't involve himself, but he does and has.



Yes he did. The Orange Lantern corp is his creation.


He made the deal for the ships arrival at Earth.



He handed out recruitment policy to someone else, which was his decision.


Lies.

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Are you actually going to understand the arguments I'm making, instead of immediately jumping to the clearly metaphorical example I gave you? Not to mention the rest of the posts you've disregarded.

usually those intermediary's offer a replacement if it's broken

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They have the express authority to do so. oL can at best ask Dox for a replacement, but even then that would only delay the problem, not solve it.

 

[BlueMangoAdea]

Yes he did. The Orange Lantern corp is his creation.

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He created it alongside multiple individuals.

He made the deal for the ships arrival at Earth.

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He didn't decide the specific type of ships. Dox(apparently) did.

He handed out recruitment policy to someone else, which was his decision.

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? Wasn't Dox actively experimenting which type of recruits would work best for the corps? Paul didn't give a specific recruitment policy, as far as I remember. He just looked at their emotional structures, and intuitively chose those he felt would fit well with the corps. Dox probably considered their personality as well and may have incorporated them into his experiments, I guess.

 

[Grimnar]

Are you actually going to understand the arguments I'm making, instead

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Your arguments are shit. And as to why, I will explain it to you.

Look, OL is no more responsible for this situation

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Let me lay out how causality works.

He pulls with Orange Light on the Ring Truggs is wearing, inadvertantly calling dozens of Rings and scattering about space.
While he isn't responsable for what the people do with those rings, he IS responsable for putting the Rings within reach of each of them. This is his mess to clean up, and the other character make it abundandly clear they expect him to do so.

OL reaches out the Guardians about the creation of an Orange Lantern Corp.
He captures Larfleeze and the CPB.
He recruits dox.
He introduces the Controlling Controller and Dox as the new leader.
He recruits optimal lanterns.

Without his unique involvement and investments the Orange Lantern Corp wouldn't exist. Every bit of good it does and every bit of bad is does is a consequence of his actions to a far more egregious degree than just calling those rings. As the creating infleunce the messes they cause are a result of his actions.

This is how Causality works. Action to consequence and so on.


To act as if this has nothing to do with OL is fucking nonsensical because he set all this into motion. And as is the case with the Rings, everyone rightly holds him responsable for actions he knowing and deliberately took. And this isn't going to be a one time thing. He created the damn thing and others will hold him accountable for his actions.

 

[moralrelativity]

Could someone please remind me who Arnus is and how Paul pissed him(?) off?

 

[FeepingCreature]

The fact that the governments of Earth have no way to compel Paul to help is exactly why he shouldn't help. There's a difference between being a hero and being a doormat. I'm very glad Paul is asserting himself more. Paul's whole point is that it's insane for a planet to suborn its government to the will of a bunch of unelected supers because the government is too lazy to actually do their damn jobs. That's not even Justice Lords tier, that's Justice No You Do It It's Okay. Takeover of society by dint of nobody else could be arsed; authority via disinterest of the governed.

So Paul ain't gonna do it. What are you- restate. Aside from whining at him and giving him puppy dog eyes, what are you going to do about it? Seriously, what do you do about it? What's your plan for if a super doesn't feel like it right now?

Cause if you don't have a plan, if you're that powerless and aimless, then you don't have a government. Just a bunch of pointless titles.

Jesus Christ. Apparently supers are supposed to do the government's job because the government just doesn't have the work ethic to do it at all. If that is what supers do to a society, then Lex was right.

 

[Darko]

Could someone please remind me who Arnus is and how Paul pissed him(?) off?

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Arnus is Icon, an alien that crashed to Earth in the 19th century and was reconfigured as a black man by his shop.

He's a lawyer named Augustus.

As for why he's pissed at Paul no idea, though it could be something else seeing as I'm not familiar all that much with his comics.

 

[Idkusername]

Your arguments are shit. And as to why, I will explain it to you.

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And you still seem to have missed the 4-5 posts I made before you replied, one or two of which were in direct response to you. Unless you actually respond to my arguments and not whatever snippet that fancy, this is the last post I'll be responding to.

Let me lay out how causality works.

He pulls with Orange Light on the Ring Truggs is wearing, inadvertantly calling dozens of Rings and scattering about space.
While he isn't responsable for what the people do with those rings, he IS responsable for putting the Rings within reach of each of them. This is his mess to clean up, and the other character make it abundandly clear they expect him to do so.

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Except this ring is not from that event. An just because people expect you to do something doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do, or your responsibility. It just means the]at they expect you to do something.

OL reaches out the Guardians about the creation of an Orange Lantern Corp.
He captures Larfleeze and the CPB.
He recruits dox.
He introduces the Controlling Controller and Dox as the new leader.
He recruits optimal lanterns.

Without his unique involvement and investments the Orange Lantern Corp wouldn't exist. Every bit of good it does and every bit of bad is does is a consequence of his actions to a far more egregious degree than just calling those rings. As the creating infleunce the messes they cause are a result of his actions.

This is how Causality works. Action to consequence and so on.

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Was Ol the 'cause' for the Orange Lanterns? That's a no, because that was Hinon, when she made the ring that sought him out. Is he the cause for their creation as they are? Partially. He brought in Dix to actually head the Corps. Is he then responsible for the Corps? No, that's Dox. Is he to blame? No, even less than he can be held responsible.

There is a difference, between causality, responsibility and blame.

To act as if this has nothing to do with OL is fucking nonsensical because he set all this into motion. And as is the case with the Rings, everyone rightly holds him responsable for actions he knowing and deliberately took. And this isn't going to be a one time thing. He created the damn thing and others will hold him accountable for his actions.

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Except he really isn't. By your logic, it is not OL, but Hinon, Batman, Wonder Woman and Alan Scott who are responsible for all actions that Paul has taken, because they provided him with his ring and lantern, and as such created 'Orange Lantern 2184'.[/Quote]

 

[Ace Dreamer]

Might be just me, but I read this episode and saw exploding goats* in the future...

* Why? Because exploding them is about the only way to stop goats** eating stuff.

** Why worry about exploding goats? Because, for the goats, it's a pretty terminal situation.

Spoiler: Learn from the masters...

OK, this is here because of the explosions. It has, as far as I know. zero goat content.

Easy they say. Stick a stake in the ground. Tie a rope to it, with the goat on the end. The goat will pull the stake out of the ground. Then, eat the rope. Then the stake.

 

[l---erddad---l]

I mean, considering Paul's primary shtick is being an asshole about how the League members have a responsibility to do everything they can, just because they can, it's bizarre as fuck to have him trying to sell "This person who was given power by the organization I created and is on Earth because I asked my organization for backup (as far as I know, because I literally can't even be arsed to double-check his credentials and orders) has nothing to do with me."

If the guy was putatively representing the Thanagarian government, and Hawkman had this kind of "No one's paying me to give a fuck" attitude, we'd get three chapters of Paul giving "You suck!" speeches.

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The League chose to do what it does. All he wants is for them to do it competenly and reasonable.

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^^This. And the fact that he wants them to actually work towards the super-important mandate given to them that they voluntarily accepted and that no one else can do, just because they're too scared of the slippery slope. I can agree with Batman not kiling, or other stuff like that because there is moral reason that makes sense, that individuals shouldn't have that kind of power, and even if Batman was born of necessity, his desperate measures still have reasonable force.

In this case, they have been given the authority, nay, the responsibility of Earth's planetary defenders, and they're twiddling their thumbs. Even a diplomatic meeting such as this which really is the kiddie pool of interplanetary relations, they;re trying to avoid instead of actually dealing with it, by giving the actual governments a kick up their arses.

What the League, and the audience, is falling prey to, is the action bias, the fact that any action looks better than inaction. If a footballer will kick a ball into the goal with it having an equal probability of going in the middle or either of the sides, the goalie will always be blamed if he didn't move, even though diving to the sides would still have given the same chance of success.

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Paul's issue has to do with a form of hypocrisy, where you espouse a set of beliefs but don't follow through. If the League wants to be protectors of Earth, they can fucking do it right. It's about following through, not about what you're doing in the first place.

Let me lay out how causality works.

He pulls with Orange Light on the Ring Truggs is wearing, inadvertantly calling dozens of Rings and scattering about space.
While he isn't responsable for what the people do with those rings, he IS responsable for putting the Rings within reach of each of them. This is his mess to clean up, and the other character make it abundandly clear they expect him to do so.

OL reaches out the Guardians about the creation of an Orange Lantern Corp.
He captures Larfleeze and the CPB.
He recruits dox.
He introduces the Controlling Controller and Dox as the new leader.
He recruits optimal lanterns.

Without his unique involvement and investments the Orange Lantern Corp wouldn't exist. Every bit of good it does and every bit of bad is does is a consequence of his actions to a far more egregious degree than just calling those rings. As the creating infleunce the messes they cause are a result of his actions.

This is how Causality works. Action to consequence and so on.


To act as if this has nothing to do with OL is fucking nonsensical because he set all this into motion. And as is the case with the Rings, everyone rightly holds him responsable for actions he knowing and deliberately took. And this isn't going to be a one time thing. He created the damn thing and others will hold him accountable for his actions.

Click to shrink...

The fact that the governments of Earth have no way to compel Paul to help is exactly why he shouldn't help. There's a difference between being a hero and being a doormat. I'm very glad Paul is asserting himself more. Paul's whole point is that it's insane for a planet to suborn its government to the will of a bunch of unelected supers because the government is too lazy to actually do their damn jobs. That's not even Justice Lords tier, that's Justice No You Do It It's Okay. Takeover of society by dint of nobody else could be arsed; authority via disinterest of the governed.

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Okay. First off, everybody who's arguing this isn't OL's fault is a fucking moron, because that's not why he's not getting involved. If he were making decisions based on whose responsibility it is to do this, he would do it. HE'S NOT!!! He's literally going, in the text, "the Earth needs to be able to interact with the rest of the universe reasonably on a level beyond "toss superheroes at it", and it's had at least 14 years to get used to this and think of how to do so. It needs to solve this problem itself." This is a relatively low-stakes environment: The fact is, if things go horribly wrong then OL can yank Khan's ring pretty ez. It's not a question of whether OL can take charge, because he's definitely more powerful, it's whether he should. He doesn't have the perfect answers, but in his opinion Earth needs a wake-up call that it needs to figure out a way to meaningfully interact with the rest of the universe.

 

[Idkusername]

Okay. First off, everybody who's arguing this isn't OL's fault is a fucking moron, because that's not why he's not getting involved. If he were making decisions based on whose responsibility it is to do this, he would do it. HE'S NOT!!! He's literally going, in the text, "the Earth needs to be able to interact with the rest of the universe reasonably on a level beyond "toss superheroes at it", and it's had at least 14 years to get used to this and think of how to do so. It needs to solve this problem itself." This is a relatively low-stakes environment: The fact is, if things go horribly wrong then OL can yank Khan's ring pretty ez. It's not a question of whether OL can take charge, because he's definitely more powerful, it's whether he should. He doesn't have the perfect answers, but in his opinion Earth needs a wake-up call that it needs to figure out a way to meaningfully interact with the rest of the universe.

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While I agree with most of what you've said, I do still believe it isn't OL's fault. He might be the cause, yes, but he is not to blame. The two are very different.