With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[mastermenthe]

...I would be way too tempted to throw the Spectre at Darkseid.

 

[Steelplaza]

After all these years, the madlad Zoat decides to use the Spectre after all. Wow. I guess his imprisonment is what was creating the thaumosphere.

Transferring the Spectre to another host is... not a great solution, but if there was a host who can keep it under control (or at least relatively weak) it would be a respectable one. Certanly better than letting it roam around free, or leaving it here and maybe the next person to find it is less wise. (And don't even suggest the Sword of the Fallen- the possibility that counts as "death" is too great.)

I don't know, does Grayven know any dead guys with great willpower? .... ...noooo...

...but.... Alan is used to manipulating green fire. And if anyone had both the willpower and the purity of heart to control the Spectre....

In other news, I think we can safely say this is not a suitable colony site. Yuga Khan has touched this place. Maybe give that planet with three suns another look. It didn't seem that bad!

 

[Stsword]

Bad idea.

If he has a good host who can ride herd on him, he can be useful but otherwise.....

Well, my favorite example of Spectre's decision making abilities comes from the time the Brujeria woke up the Great Darkness.

Click to shrink...

And mine is the time he crushed a four year old boy under a sea of coins because he took some spare change from mommy's purse.

Folks, for those not that familiar with the Spectre, he is God's wrath. That's it.

The host is what is supposed to provide humanity, empathy, and judgement.

 

[Mr Zoat]

...I would be way too tempted to throw the Spectre at Darkseid.

Click to shrink...

That doesn't go like you hope it would.

 

[BartlettMagic]

i may be a little paranoid or over-thinking this, but i can't help thinking that Hinon sent them here. for a Controller, she was uncharacteristically lazy with her knowledge of this planet, or at least what she doled out to Gravy. Controllers gonna control, and manipulate. was this a test for Gravy, instigated by Hinon, who knew (more or less) what was here?

also, given that Maltusians are so ancient and near-omnipotent, did they ever have interactions with Yuga Khan, neutral or otherwise? seems like whatever may have happened, the Controllers came out on top, even if it only means they didn't throw themselves at the Source Wall.

my knowledge of all this deep lore is basically zero.

 

[Darko]

i may be a little paranoid or over-thinking this, but i can't help thinking that Hinon sent them here. for a Controller, she was uncharacteristically lazy with her knowledge of this planet, or at least what she doled out to Gravy. Controllers gonna control, and manipulate. was this a test for Gravy, instigated by Hinon, who knew (more or less) what was here?

also, given that Maltusians are so ancient and near-omnipotent, did they ever have interactions with Yuga Khan, neutral or otherwise? seems like whatever may have happened, the Controllers came out on top, even if it only means they didn't throw themselves at the Source Wall.

my knowledge of all this deep lore is basically zero.

Click to shrink...

When Hinon woke up from her coma she did mention Yuga Khan.

 

[mastermenthe]

That doesn't go like you hope if would.

Click to shrink...

Ah, right, i forgot that!
The whole thing with Darkseid Is, since the guy himself is naturally a fop, is from him Mantleing Yuga Kahn's portfolio and responsibilities as the new Divine Figurehead. (of evil? darkness?)

You sit in the throne, you become the chair.

 

[Steelplaza]

The whole thing with Darkseid Is, since the guy himself is naturally a fop, is from him Mantleing Yuga Kahn's portfolio and responsibilities as the new Divine Figurehead. (of evil? darkness?)

Click to shrink...

I think it's more that Darkseid wishes that were true, but it's not. He doesn't have Yuga Kahn's juice, no matter how much he'd like to convince everyone else he does.

 

[mastermenthe]

I think it's more that Darkseid wishes that were true, but it's not. He doesn't have Yuga Kahn's juice, no matter how much he'd like to convince everyone else he does.

Click to shrink...

That's what i said.

 

[PDV]

That doesn't go like you hope it would.

Click to shrink...

I don't buy it. Sure, there has to be an evil of his tier, but it doesn't need to be him. It could be Yuga Khan; it was, once. It could be someone else, next. Someone with less grudge against Renegrayven.

 

[Steelplaza]

You know, every discussion of the Spectre starts out with the Spectre experts saying that of course his power level can vary between "slightly powerful ghost" and "God".

But then if a fanfic ever dared use him in "sightly powerful ghost" mode, I get the feeling there would be endless complaints/questions over and over about it.

 

[Vaermina]

20th August 2013
12:51 GMT -7

Click to shrink...

So yes, this guy absolutely has the ability to tell that Grayven's just Grayven who was made to believe he is Renegade.

 

[Stsword]

I don't buy it. Sure, there has to be an evil of his tier, but it doesn't need to be him. It could be Yuga Khan; it was, once. It could be someone else, next. Someone with less grudge against Renegrayven.

Click to shrink...

From what I recall from reading about that story, yes, that was the point- By killing Darkseid the Spectre would be the next Darkseid. "The king is dead, long live the king."

That wasn't the Presence saving Darksied, that was the Presence saying "Oh hell no, he's my Spectre, I ain't sharing."

 

[Darko]

So yes, this guy absolutely has the ability to tell that Grayven's just Grayven who was made to believe he is Renegade.

Click to shrink...

The Spectre is currently in a sack of skin with some bones in it and he has lost a lot of power.

He also lied to Iname about Renegade killing her parents.

He is not a reliable source of information.

His whole thing is punishing people for things he perceives as being wrong, and it's very common for his punishments to be significantly brutal and disproportionate; like the kid and the pennies that was previously mentioned.

Telling Renegade that he's not Renegade is just a punishment, and most likely one based on lies.

 

[Silveraith]

So yes, this guy absolutely has the ability to tell that Grayven's just Grayven who was made to believe he is Renegade.

Click to shrink...

Could this question not be answered, the debate settled, by determining if Grayven can say his own name. If He can say "Paul 'Candle'" than he's Grayven who's been made to believe XYZ, but if he can't then we can say he's the Renegade who's metaphysical soul consumed the real Grayven upon his physical death.

 

[Silverias]

...but.... Alan is used to manipulating green fire. And if anyone had both the willpower and the purity of heart to control the Spectre....

Click to shrink...

I will genuinely be unhappy if Alan ends up being brought back for Renegade.

Alan's death is one of the things that Grayven failed on in a way that Paragon didn't. Reversing that is bad in my opinion

 

[Someguy Somewhere]

The whole "Darkseid vs Spectre" thin is why we have the current run of DC comics ...Darkseid TOOK the Spectre's power and made his own darker twist on the universe, hence the 'roided out 'Absolute' Batman with an axe and the rest of the trinity with a pile of emotional baggage running around the multiverse.

 

[RoninSword]

To those wondering, Renegade is still unable to say or think the name Paul.
Which means there is in fact some of the og person there in him and he is not just Grayven being made to think he is the other guy.

 

[Mr Zoat]

I will genuinely be unhappy if Alan ends up being brought back for Renegade.

Alan's death is one of the things that Grsyvencfailed on in a way that Paragon didn't. Reversing that is bad in my opinion

Click to shrink...

If Alan was offered the opportunity to come back as the Spectre's host, I suspect that he'd ask what degree of control he'd actually have and then turn it down before he got Crispus Allened.

 

[CrazyNoVa]

Note that, as far as everyone including him knew, the Great Darkness was God's Evil Half with all the power that implies.

Click to shrink...

So, the Anti-God, then. The dark void to his light. The opposite of The Presence. An Absence, if you will.

 

[ShadowScion626]

So, the Anti-God, then. The dark void to his light. The opposite of The Presence. An Absence, if you will.

Click to shrink...

Oh, that's a good one. But yeah, situations like that always felt like plot-induced stupidity to me, because the Spectre should absolutely be smart and wise enough to know that they can't possibly fight Gods equal-opposite counterpart and win, yet the plot needed for the Spectre to stand aside and the Absence out, so ergo plot induced arrogance.

Hmm. I would like to have an SI-as-the-Spectre story. Im gonna go search for some.

 

[Mr Zoat]

20th August 2013
12:55 GMT -7

"Could you put your host on for a minute?"

"He would die."

Ah, yeah. His species isn't really designed to live when they're that decayed. I take out my purple healing ray and begin fabricating a nutrient drip. Duties of the Domitor

"See this gun? It was designed by a woman from the most notoriously murderous political movement on Earth, after she quit and tried repenting. It fires a ray which invigorates living tissue, a 'healing ray' if you will. If you'd encountered her prior to her making it -whether she was still loyal or repentant- you'd have killed her, and it wouldn't exist. But, I can fire it at your host, and hook him up to-" I nod to the drip. "-that, and he'll probably survive."

"I will not release Yuga Khan."

"If he starts to die, take over. I just want to pay my respects to a man brave enough to fight my grandfather, and to ask what funerary rites he wants." Hm. "But I suppose you can pass that on. Let's not be unrealistic about your chance of getting out of this."

"I will escape eventually. And now that you are here, the Knights of Passage will have observed the changes on the surface and dispatched a patrol to investigate. My host had given up hope, but your folly has renewed it."

"You know… That's the sad thing. He deserves a chance to return to his people."

"You cannot harm me in a meaningful way. In our weakened state you could slay my host, but you fear Yuga Khan too greatly to risk it. If you free me, I will grant you a swift and painless death; it is the one leniency I afford to anyone."

"Mm, let me thinkno." I feel around my-. Ah, there it is. "Spectre, are you aware of Masak Mavdil?"

"It would not hold me."

"Sure, sure. Point is, while I was there, I picked up this." I pull out a tiny piece of kaahuite from my harness. "Nasty stuff, hm? Now, I'm not sure what would happen if I killed you with it-. Killed your host, I should say. But I'd give it an even chance of sticking. And my grandfather had no idea that this stuff existed. Which means that whatever Source-based thing is supposed to happen almost certainly won't."

"Almost."

"Yeah, but for me, you being free is actually worse than Grandfather getting free. I mean, I certainly don't want him free, but he'd probably just ignore me. He might even deal with Father for me. You, on the other hand, would send me to the Source at the first opportunity."

"Yes."

"At least you're honest. What was up with that Provider?"

"Your minions unleashed them upon thousands of worlds."

"No-." I frown. "No, you've got me confused for the other Grayven. The clone I got merged with. He's the one who recruited the Citizenry, I'm the one who rallied Vega to stop them."

"No. You're not."

…

"I had wondered. Still, I think I am, and that's the main thing. And the Source takes my soul either way, so… Distinction without a difference." I shrug. "Or perhaps not. Something tells me that you're the sort who would underestimate the power of friendship." I take hold of the drip's infusion pad. "May I? You've already acknowledged that I'm not going to kill your host with something so mundane as poison."

"I will make no accommodation with evil."

"Okay, fine. Other option is that I kill you with this." I draw the Sword of the Fallen with my left hand. "This has the interesting effect of causing you to incarnate as a mortal. No magic power, but you can work on your morals and maybe earn your way back into the Silver City. Which I… Vaguely recall is the whole point of this exercise."

"If I live, I will regain my power. If I regain my power, I will slay you."

"Unless you live and die as a mortal man. Most of those don't get as powerful as me. But I will respect your dedication if you try. So. Do you have a preference, or anything useful to say on the subject?"

"I will make. No accommodation. With evil."

I shrug, and look to my assistants. "Girls? Any thoughts?"

Persuader gestures to the ship's machinery. "Couldn't we just wreck this place, and then take him with us?"

"It would be a risk, but in theory, yes. The problem is that I don't know the systems that Grandfather would have used. Plus, there are all sorts of problems that could come about from having him as a prisoner. First and foremost, it leaves open the possibility of escape."

"Master, isn't Christianity all about encouraging people to be better?"

"Yes. Which is why the Spectre here literally stopped existing while Jesus Christ was alive."

Iname blinks. "King Jesus is real?"

"Sort of. I'm not exactly sure what he was. I had wondered if he was a human who turned himself into a New God unaided. That's why I delayed in Awakening Persuader; to see if it was possible. But after Knockout got a bit into things I thought it best not to wait."

"I'm not Jesus, boss."

I nod. "I realised that."

"And it was just grinding, it wasn't even-."

"I don't need to know that, Persuader." … "Though to be clear, Knockout's job is to teach you to fight. Consent customs are.. different on Apokolips, but in my home we use American norms."

"… Right."

That's going to be an awkward conversation for later.

"Master, um…"

I give Iname a mildly pained look. "You too?"

She blinks. "Me t-?" Her eyes widen as she works out what I just implied. "No!"

"Oh, ah-. It wouldn't be a problem exactly, I was more surprised-." Though given how we met, perhaps I shouldn't have been.

And now she's blushing. "I want to ask why the Spectre is trying to kill me. Persuader murdered her teacher and he thinks you are the Other Grayven, but what did I do?"

"Ignorant child, you have murdered thousands."

"But they were all really bad."

"By the law of Heaven, not all of those you slew deserved death."

She thinks for a moment, and then turns back to me. "Master, I don't like Heaven's laws."

"Then you're in the historical majority. Last words, Spectre?"

"Your evil will not stand."

"Neat."

I step forwards and stab his host in the heart with the Sword of the Fallen. He shudders for a moment, then his skin returns to its former blue hue and his cloak turns into the remains of a uniform. The second that happens I withdraw the Sword and repair his heart, sticking the infusion pad onto his chest to start the process of feeding him and shooting with the now fully functional purple healing ray.

Scans show...

Not dead. He hangs limply, eyes barely capable of tracking me. But they are tracking.

Let's hope that the Knights of Passage are so glad to see him that they don't ask too much about anything else.

 

[Ngamer11]

I hope Paul never meets the Spectre and the latter stays trapped forever in the Paragon timeline.

 

[MajorPane]

Incarnating the Wrath of God as a human feels like you've accidentally anti-christed. There's no way this doesnt end, heh, apocalyptically.

 

[Silverias]

"No. You're not."

Click to shrink...

…huuuuh

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

20th August 2013
12:55 GMT -7

"Could you put your host on for a minute?"

"He would die."

Click to shrink...

I mean, they've been here for hundreds, even thousands of years. Without food or medical care. Probably the only things keeping him alive are the Spectre's power and the Apokaliptian devices. So that's entirely understandable.

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

Ah, yeah. His species isn't really designed to live when they're that decayed. I take out my purple healing ray and begin fabricating a nutrient drip. Duties of the Domitor

Click to shrink...

Best be careful with that, or the Spectre might take measures to prevent you.

"See this gun? It was designed by a woman from the notoriously murderous political movement on Earth, after she quit and tried repenting. It fires a ray which invigorates living tissue, a 'healing ray' if you will. If you'd encountered her prior to her making it -whether she was still loyal or repentant- you'd have killed her, and it wouldn't exist. But, I can fire it at your host, and hook him up to-" I nod to the drip. "-that, and he'll probably survive."

Click to shrink...

I don't think the Spectre will appreciate you pointing out his behaviour's drawbacks.

"I will not release Yuga Khan."

"If he starts to die, take over. I just want to pay my respects to a man brave enough to fight my grandfather, and to ask what funerary rites he wants." Hm. "But I suppose you can pass that on. Let's not be unrealistic about your chance of getting out of this."

Click to shrink...

The Renegade did say he's kill the one responsible for this place. The only matter is of how and what consequences it will have...

"I will escape eventually. And now that you are here, the Knights of Passage will have observed the changed on the surface and dispatched a patrol to investigate. My host had given up hope, but your folly has renewed it."

"You know… That's the sad thing. He deserves a chance to return to his people."

Click to shrink...

And what's the bet the Spectre would take a look at the Knights who release him and instantly declare them sinful and promptly execute them?

"You cannot harm me in a meaningful way. In our weakened state you could slay my host, but you fear Yuga Khan too greatly to risk it. If you free me, I will grant you a swift and painless death; it is the one leniency I afford to anyone."

"Mm, let me thinkno." I feel around my-. Ah, there it is. "Spectre, are you aware of Masak Mavdil?"

"It would not hold me."

Click to shrink...

The deepest place of Hell, there the First of the Fallen landed. Of course the former Aztar would know of it, since he was part of that rebellion before repenting.

"Sure, sure. Point is, while I was there, I picked up this." I pull out a tiny piece of kaahuite from my harness. "Nasty stuff, hm? Now, I'm not sure what would happen if I killed you with it-. Killed your host, I should say. But I'd give it an even chance of sticking. And my grandfather had no idea that this stuff existed. Which means that whatever Source-based thing is supposed to happen almost certainly won't."

Click to shrink...

Pity it's so uncertain. Perhaps it would punt the Spectre right back to the Presence, ready to be weighed and measured.

"Almost."

"Yeah, but for me, you being free is actually worse than Grandfather getting free. I mean, I certainly don't want him free, but he'd probably just ignore me. He might even deal with Father for me. You, on the other hand, would send me to the Source at the first opportunity."

Click to shrink...

And then everyone else who doesn't live up to his exacting and impossible moral standards. So most of the universe. Until the Presence noticed the sudden outbreak of mortality and yank his leash.

"Yes."

"At least you're honest. What was up with that Provider?"

Click to shrink...

Weapon of opportunity, perhaps?

"Your minions unleashed them upon thousands of worlds."

"No-." I frown. "No, you've got me confused for the other Grayven. The clone I got merged with. He's the one who recruited the Citizenry, I'm the one who rallied Vega to stop them."

Click to shrink...

And in fact he stopped that behaviour, I believe. Or at least aimed them at deserving targets.

"No. You're not."

…

Click to shrink...

Well, that's an interesting accusation. But ultimately, what will it matter in the end?

"I had wondered. Still, I think I am, and that's the main thing. And the Source takes my soul either way, so… Distinction without a difference." I shrug. "Or perhaps not. Something tells me that you're the sort who would underestimate the power of friendship." I take hold of the drip's infusion pad. "May I? You've already acknowledged that I'm not going to kill your host with something so mundane as poison."

Click to shrink...

What does it matter if it is the Renegade's soul reformed inside Grayven-16's shell, or Grayven-16 who is only dreaming he is the Renegade? Unless the latter's soul awakens and overtakes the former's mind, the point is moot.

"I will make no accommodation with evil."

"Okay, fine. Other option is that I kill you with this." I draw the Sword of the Fallen with my left hand. "This has the interesting effect of causing you to incarnate as a mortal. No magic power, but you can work on your morals and maybe earn your way back into the Silver City. Which I… Vaguely recall is the whole point of this exercise."

Click to shrink...

Frustratingly, the Spectre has no greys in its perception. You are either pure good, or pure evil and even the slightest stain counts as the latter.

"If I live, I will regain my power. If I regain my power, I will slay you."

"Unless you live and die as a mortal man. Most of those don't get as powerful as me. But I will respect your dedication if you try. So. Do you have a preference, or anything useful to say on the subject?"

Click to shrink...

Another case of creating his own foes. He really needs to avoid antagonising people potentially capable of destroying him...

"I will make. No accommodation. With evil."

I shrug, and look to my assistants. "Girls? Any thoughts?"

Click to shrink...

Yeah, no changing that mind.

Persuader gestures to the ship's machinery. "Couldn't we just wreck this place, and then take him with us?"

"It would be a risk, but in theory, yes. The problem is that I don't know the systems that Grandfather would have used. Plus, there are all sorts of problems that could come about from having him as a prisoner. First and foremost, it leaves open the possibility of escape."

Click to shrink...

Whether of Yuga Khan or of the Spectre, that would be a serious problem for everyone.

"Master, isn't Christianity all about encouraging people to be better?"

"Yes. Which is why the Spectre here literally stopped existing while Jesus Christ was alive."

Click to shrink...

Heh, that's an amusing idea.

Iname blinks. "King Jesus is real?"

"Sort of. I'm not exactly sure what he was. I had wondered if he was a human who turned himself into a New God unaided. That's why I delayed in Awakening Persuader; to see if it was possible. But after Knockout got a bit into things I thought it best not to wait."

Click to shrink...

More likely it was something like the Spectre: A tiny fragment of the Presence incarnated in a human body. Probably 'Redemption' or something.

"I'm not Jesus, boss."

I nod. "I realised that."

"And it was just grinding, it wasn't even-."

Click to shrink...

Excuse you? Oh, my... </takei>

"I don't need to know that, Persuader." … "Though to be clear, Knockout's job is to teach you to fight. Consent customs are.. different on Apokolips, but in my home we use American norms."

"… Right."

That's going to be an awkward conversation for later.

Click to shrink...

On both sides. Though if he asks Knockout about it, she'd probably boast.

"Master, um…"

I give Iname a mildly pained look. "You too?"

She blinks. "Me t-?" Her eyes widen as she works out what I just implied. "No!"

Click to shrink...

Heh, still so innocent after all this time...

"Oh, ah-. It wouldn't be a problem exactly, I was more surprised-." Though given how we met, perhaps I shouldn't have been.

And now she's blushing. "I want to ask why the Spectre is trying to kill me. Persuader murdered her teacher and he thinks you are the Other Grayven, but what did I do?"

Click to shrink...

...I would have thought it was obvious, given what you've learned of the Spectre's beliefs.

"Ignorant child, you have murdered thousands."

"But they were all really bad."

Click to shrink...

Sadly, context and circumstance don't seem to apply where the Spectre is concerned.

"By the law of Heaven, not all of those you slew deserved death."

She thinks for a moment, and then turns back to me. "Master, I don't like Heaven's laws."

"Then you're in the historical majority. Last words, Spectre?"

Click to shrink...

Heh. Renegade pulling no punches today.

"Your evil will not stand."

"Neat."

Click to shrink...

And really, it's not meant to. He aims to pull down the old, broken systems and erect ones that work in their place. A better world. If that is evil, then so be it.

I step forwards and stab his host in the heart with the Sword of the Fallen. He shudders for a moment, then his skin returns to its former blue huge and his cloak turns into the remains of a uniform. The second that happens I withdraw the Sword and repair his heart, sticking the infusion pad onto his chest to start the process of feeding him and shooting with the now fully functional purple healing ray.

Click to shrink...

That will have consequences, I fear. Whether they come home to roost sooner or later, they will come back to him.

Scans show...

Not dead. He hangs limply, eyes barely capable of tracking me. But they are tracking.

Let's hope that the Knights of Passage are so glad to see him that they don't ask too much about anything else.

Click to shrink...

It'll be tricky to explain that you basically stabbed the universe's personification of Vengeance with a knife that makes them mortal. Wonder what world he'll be reborn on. Almost certainly Earth, I bet...

And so it's done... For now. I expect there'll be at least one scene of the Renegade dealing with the immediate clean-up, then Boom Tubing home. Of course, with his typical style, there's a lot of dangerous pieces scattered about just waiting to come back as disasters in future. Now, I wonder how team OL is doing against the Cyberdemon...

 

[BR549]

It was designed by a woman from the notoriously murderous political movement on Earth,

Click to shrink...

"a", I believe should go here.

Well, it turns out the Sword of the Fallen does work on the Spectre after all.

But I suspect the Silver City will remember that.

 

[Austin Pharos]

Hm, was killing the Spectre with the Sword of the Fallen the best choice? I suppose that keeping him prisoner is begging for him to escape or be broken out. And I can't think of many things that would actually properly contain or kill the Spectre.

 

[Bigreader]

Is the specter a trustworthy source of information about whether this version is graven or graven Paul? Because original Paul didn't have a soul by this universe's standards. So for all intents and purposes, he could be that tall just more, we've graven, added in.

 

[Duke Long]

"I will escape eventually. And now that you are here, the Knights of Passage will have observed the changed on the surface and dispatched a patrol to investigate. My host had given up hope, but your folly has renewed it."

Click to shrink...

'changes'

"At least you're honest. What was up with that Provider?"

"Your minions unleashed them upon thousands of worlds."

"No-." I frown. "No, you've got me confused for the other Grayven. The clone I got merged with. He's the one who recruited the Citizenry, I'm the one who rallied Vega to stop them."

"No. You're not."

Click to shrink...

Hey, he didn't explain it! Why did the Provider have tron lines?

"Oh, ah-. It wouldn't be a problem exactly, I was more surprised-." Though given how me met, perhaps I shouldn't have been.

Click to shrink...

'we'

I step forwards and stab his host in the heart with the Sword of the Fallen. He shudders for a moment, then his skin returns to its former blue huge and his cloak turns into the remains of a uniform. The second that happens I withdraw the Sword and repair his heart, sticking the infusion pad onto his chest to start the process of feeding him and shooting with the now fully functional purple healing ray.

Click to shrink...

'hue'