With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Not from the local people. They have other priorities.

 

I thought there was, but haven't been able to find it. It's possible I misremembered.

 

No. While he might well not have been celibate, for the most part the Children of Dawn were his children in the metaphorical sense. No harem.

'Freedom fighters'.

Thank you, corrected.

Wolf Krieger would never tolerate his God-Fuhrer being Canadian.

 

In mice!

 

I'm wondering if the blood that DID fit was compared to that other blood. If the enhancile is that worker and deliberately got himself cut again as a way to explain why his blood was there.

 

No, but that's a lot clever than what actually happened. Well done.

 

D) Paul isn’t about to do something that will make it more likely the Nazis with Kryptonian tech will try to attack Earth-16. That’s the sort of thing which will result in significant casualties on the good guys’ side.

 

Nazis are always a hotbutton for everyone, but boiling things down to the very basics, I think most of us could agree that being brainwashed into what is basically an evil cult isn't, in-and-of-itself, an irredeemably immoral action.

So long as you don't, whilst a member of said cult, go around murdering people, then morally you're probably in the clear. You're just... brainwashed into believing something that isn't true.

By all accounts in story, Overgirl doesn't actually have innocent blood on her hands, if only because all the murdering was pretty much over with by the time she was grown up and brainwashed enough to take part.

Of course, people don't want to feel sympathy for a nazi, so they're making stuff up in their heads about how she must have gone around killing people, even though Paul, and by extension Mr Zoat, have explicitly said that she hasn't.
Not this version of her, anyway.

 

del

 

Also, unless they, like, deliberately pick a fight with Earth 10 . . . I don't really see one of the cliche and, frankly, stupid scenarios of multiversal invasions happening.

They already have an entire goddamn universe to expand into. What the fuck is even the point of attacking alternate Earths when you can be secure in your power over the Earth you already own?

If you have to do that shit, wait until you've got an interstellar empire going so that you have the manpower and industry of multiple worlds fueling your war machine. Then you can worry about finding another Earth that isn't as far along and picking a fight when you have, like, a trillion motherfuckers to throw at their billions.

Or maybe they figure out time fuckery and how to clone Overman, and send copies of the pod and baby into the Nazi Germany's of other Earths. Plus whatever new bullshit they might have picked up along the way.

Crisis on Infinite Nazi Earths.

 

It got silly the moment someone started talking about milking dryads for maple syrup. Fun, yes, but also very silly.

To be perfectly fair, Grayven is basically a good person in that his goals line up with what most people would consider the greater good. "Asshole" and "good person" are not mutually exclusive. It's quite possible - maybe even common - to be a complete ass to people and still be working for the greater good. It's also possible and very common to be polite and genial and even apparently kind to people around you but still be a completely evil SOB. See most politicians for an example of that one.

Meh, they don't enjoy Grayven and they're not excited about him visiting MLP land. They may dislike the Nazi stuff so much that they start frothing at the mouth over it (not naming any names, but at least one person here has had that sort of reaction) but they at least enjoy the story. They do not, however, enjoy Grayvan's antics.

And me? I not only enjoy Grayvan, but I've been thoroughly enjoying that 12 Steps to Omnipotence story that Zoat linked last week (or the week before maybe?). It's a lot like Grayven only moreso (I even think at the point of the story I'm at Hyperion would be an even match to Grayven, and he's only going to get more powerful if his plans play out). I dunno, maybe I just like dickish, godlike anti-heroes.

 

I, for one, am actually looking forward to the pony episodes. They'll probably be quite interesting.

I like the vast majority of Zoat's writing, it's very rare that he does something that annoys me.

That said, a warning: One important trap to avoid falling into is "X is a belief of evil group Y who we know have false beliefs A, B and C. Therefore X is false.".
Not all of the Nazis/Hitler's beliefs will be incorrect and immoral (the classic example is veganism).
Similarly, not all brainwashing is to instill incorrect beliefs. The classic example here is belief in democracy that's drilled into children at school.

 

Brainwashing can be extremely confusing sometimes. Technically OL is trying to brainwash Overgirl into adopting a way of life that goes against everything she was taught to believe in.

 

Which is a problem - democracy might be the best type of government, but there’s a lot of things wrong with America’s democracy and there is space to improve.

 

Of course he would be. "Shoot first, ask questions later" is the hallmark of bad judgment.

She won't, but not for some fourth-wall reason. She won't because she's not mentally unstable. She's not going to "snap". She's basically a soldier, and if ordered she'll kill someone without losing any sleep over it, but she's not a crazed lunatic that's a hair trigger away from killing someone on a whim.

He IS liable for her actions, though, as he has taken responsibility for her supervision and rehabilitation. And as we see, he actually IS taking that responsibility seriously.

This is reasonable -- keep a potential threat contained for evaluation. It's nothing permanent, easily rectified in either direction if it turns out you were wrong.

Kryptonite on-hand is also a good plan. And he has that.

Brainwashing requires "systematic and forceful means." Persuasion isn't brainwashing. And brainwashing, like any other form of indoctrination, is intended to result in someone who uncritically accepts dogma as truth without reflection or introspection. OL is doing very much the opposite -- he's trying to induce the reflection and introspection that Overgirl's upbringing never let her have, in order to let her come to a different conclusion on her own.

 

I mean, what people talk about when they talk about nazism is the actual nazism.
Nobody mentions hitler being a vegan because that's really not the important part here. We're not doing the 'Hitler ate sugar' fallacy here. We're talking about someone being brainwashed into believing about the uebermensch and the untermensch, about how Joos are behind everything, and all the other bullshit that people actually mean when they talk about the evils of nazism.
Not to say that veganism isn't also wrong and evil, because you're wrong and it totally is.

 

Well... Were behind everything.

But not because Hitler did it. Because of characteristics intrinsic to the creed.

 

Obviously.

 

You are seeing a contradiction where there is none.

He had a harem. He had no children whatsoever off of said harem. So he settled for his metaphorical Sons of Dawn.

Hugo was apparently pretty infertile.

It was a plot point.

His excuse for never being there for Iron Monroe was that it never occurred to him that he could get Anna pregnant. If you want to give him the benefit of the doubt that is.

Although considering he planned on his Mighty Whitey campaign to end with his Sons of Dawn waging a genocidal campaign of world conquest that would kill more people than the Nazis of Earth-10, I'm not sure how many people will feel the need to give him the benefit of that doubt.

Although considering you're having Fire be something of a fan, either you're really sanitized the man from the comics version, or history has seriously whitewashed the scumbag.

 

This is a diffrent universe, maybe he doesn't have his main universe counterparts more negative traits, and maybe he didn't have a harem in this universe because he was uncomfortable with the idea or just wasn't interested.

 

I don't know where you're getting this harem thing from? There was no harem. None.

 

I've got to be honest, Mr Zoat I'm shocked at how casual OL has apparently been about knowing that Lex has had access to the Danner Formula for a long time now between the fact that he usually pushes for human enhancement pretty heavily and would probably try and make it publicly available asap and the fact that it means that any random Light thug could be Danner enhanced and he'd probably push a lot harder for people like Batman to accept the treatment as a result

 

The same place I got his being an infertile genocidal lunatic from, from actually reading the Young All-Stars storyline which included him and the Sons of Dawn.

If you interpreted "Although considering you're having Fire be something of a fan, either you're really sanitized the man from the comics version, or history has seriously whitewashed the scumbag" in anyway but my pointing out that there is already evidence from the story that implies Zoat changed Hugo's character, you interpreted it incorrectly.

While it's not impossible that Zoat has Fire have nostalgia filter for a genocidal lunatic that would have buried her entire family under a mountain of corpses to build his Dannered utopia over, that seems highly unlikely.

 

I believe he isn't too worked up about it because unless you have a power ring and can convert a person's cells using the Danner formula, you're limited to the usual method of operation of the formula, i.e injecting a pregnant mother with the formula. Since Paul is hardly going to be volunteering to convert Light members using the Danner formula that means that he's got 16 years or so until Danner-enhanced Light operatives become a problem.

 

Except that Lex has scientists working for him capable of cloning full adults in a matter of months, Paul even informed him that cloning humans infused with the Danner formula would have been more effective than cloning Superman.

 

There are several points in favor of it.

Alternate Earths, almost certain to be habitable, then most of space isn't.
Travel time is cut down to almost nothing compared to space travel.
That makes all sorts of logistics much easier compared to managing a conventional space empire.
Also easier to defend from conventional spaced based non dimensional empires.

Also, Earth is inhabited by humans, and not alien species. No need to deal with special accommodations for different body types or mindsets. What works on one planet can be implemented on another planet easily, since they are basically the same planet with the same native species.
Also, easier to keep the empire cohesive.

 

Given that earth has technology that shits all over constructs (The crumbler tech) and has several magical applications that thwart it, I really would not be surprised if Lex couldn't whip up someway to induce Danner enhancement in full grown adults.

I mean, hell, Even with a power ring, OL mostly uses it to create various earth weapons (Railguns and various Earth forms of ammunition, crumbler tech, Captain Cold Cold-guns and the like)

 

And if Science! fails, there's always Magic. Lex might have difficulty getting competent mages and/or alchemists though, even with the Light's aid...

 

Lex wants to be able to use the Danner formula legitimately. Cloning humans is very illegal, and he knows that if it turns out that someone has cloned Dannered humans the League will look for any link to him. He's considered it, but it's most likely that he's decided that it isn't worth it.