With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Theoretically just cause doesn't give them a carte blanche to kill hundreds of thousands and displace millions, which is what would happen if their plans come to fruition.

 

I was joking-but-not-joking because pirates (that is, naval piracy) have historically been viewed as the enemies of all civilized people against whom it was everyone's duty to act. The reason for that being that they operated on the open seas, not strictly in the territory of any particular nation, and therefore everyone's responsibility to stop because they are in no one in particular's jurisdiction.

Meanwhile mere land-based terrorists are just criminals acting in whatever nation they're operating in, and arguably the problem of that nation to deal with. The rest of the world can make the judgment, as always, as to whether those criminals were right to break the laws they were breaking or not, but it's not the job of other nations to fight criminal activity occurring in the territory of one nation.

 

But what if the terrorists have prominent positions in foreign 3rd world governments? You get what is essentially an international spy that’s very likely to try large-scale sabotage on whatever target affects the entire western world.

 

I thought you already did PM her about it. I know someone did (and I thought it was you) and she seemed pretty open about what happened, so I don't see any obvious reason why a polite request for a copy (if she still has it, and I'm not sure she does) would be inappropriate.

 

The Danner Enhancile Tibes have no such positions, so either this is a war or they're criminals. If it's a war then the Justice League has a policy against intervention. If they're criminals, the Justice League might intervene if they want to, but are not obligated to if they approve of the crimes or do no feel that they could deliver justice in the situation.

Or to quote one of my favorite Orange Lantern lines when the Flash protested he had to arrest Konvict, "Are you a member of the League of Lawyers?"

 

You're looking at things very narrowly here, the second it becomes clear that the Danner Tribes are an organised group of people with a shared goal of tearing down governments, forcing people from their homes and deindustrialising half the continent they'll be labelled a terrorist group, which is very much within the Leagues purview as we've seen with Kobra

Also, if the UN puts pressure on the League to interfere in a situation then they have to do it since the only reason they can do their job is because of the UN charter and if people don't feel like they're holding up their end then they'll just withdraw from the charter

Plus, even if they could refuse they wouldn't because even though they'd probably sympathise with the tribes that doesn't change the fact that if they won it would have far far worse consequences than the other way round

 

Why is everyone claiming they’ll slaughter or displace millions, they explicitly said no one has to leave if they don’t want to! There is going to be economic turmoil yeah, but that’s not the League’s purview

 

What happens when farmer john doe says "get the fuck off my property I'm not moving?" what about the poor in the city who don't want the city torn down?

 

Yes, a very generous offer that amounts to nothing in the real world.

No cities, no agriculture, the people will have the options of starving to death or leaving.

Rio alone has more than 6 million people in it.

 

I guess it depends on if they care about the cities.

It seems that their primary goal is to stop the deforestation of the rainforest/normal forest for purposes like agriculture and industry. A green city concept could theoretically exist in those restrictions.

They would be very heavily limited in their ability to function, hamstrung by the lack of jobs that would stem from this, but it could work.

Eh, who am I kidding? Modern economies would crumble under that kind of stress. Unless Danner has some sort of plan that would let him overhaul the entire nation's economy to allow near-tribal living conditions (assuming that they allow cities, but don't want industry beyond a power plant) I don't see it working.

 

Puttig aside the fact that a war on that scale will kill thousands just as a side effect, the elder explicitly said that they want to tear down all industry and replace it with jungle

Which means their offer basically comes down to "You can keep living here but it will be in a hut in the jungle, cut off from the outside world and with none of the amenities that come from modern life"

When given the choice between living in a third world country after everything you knew and loved was stripped away by a bunch of random superpowered luddites or just moving somewhere else, the vast majority of people will choose the latter and most of the people who do the former will do so with the intent of fucking over the tribals somehow

So yeah, the tribes winning results in a humanitarian crisis on a scale that the worlds never seen

 

It seems like the comment thread has focused on the idea of Brazil calling in the League, but if I were OL / Hugo / Dawn Warrior, I would be a lot more concerned about Brazil calling up China and asking for a favor. An army of Danner enhanciles < Ghost Fox Killer and Celestial Archer.

 

He did, but Britishly enough that they didn't notice.

And at that point the Justice League come in on the tribal side.
The tribes probably could beat just Brazil, but Brazil would get desperate before they went down. Against the coalition of aggrieved countries the tribes would lose, but, again, the governments would get desperate. And if they resort to desperate measures, the JL stop helping, if they already started, or join the other side, if they'd stayed out (and maybe even switch sides outright).

Piracy is in international waters, but also, piracy interferes with reliable international trade. And if you make international trade unreliable, a lot of the stabilizing forces that maintain peace break down. The US Navy has guaranteed the free flow of trade in international waters for most of a century now, and it's generally agreed by both political science people and economists that was instrumental in the long peace we've had for most of that time.

 

Why would they come in on the tribal side, if hypothetically the league doesn't help brazil claiming it's a civil war well... there are civil wars going on that use chemical weapons that the league don't involve themselves in. (IK napalm is different from chemical weapons but I don't really see the difference in this context)

 

... when your solution is to unleash a Nazi on someone, you need a new solution.

 

Make sure that the nazis are your final solution.

I just had to say this I'm sorry.

 

Look, she's the only person there other than Paul himself who wouldn't be squeamish about stopping these lunatic tribes. The rest of the hero community isn't really big on that lethal force thing, and I'm pretty sure lethal force is going to be required at some point.

Danner Formula or not, their demands are psychotic.

But maybe cooler heads will prevail and they'll accept a significantly smaller chunk of land. After all, these tribes account for less than a percent of the population of Brazil.

Oh, and for my own tasteless joke . . . Insert something about not needing a new solution when you have the final solution.

 

Bless you sir, for taking that bullet. If it wasn't you, it would have been me. And that would be awful.

 

Either this will go to shit like with the renegade and Mars, or who knows it may work.

 

The Brazilian government at least seems willing to negotiate, rather than immediately calling the army and telling them to open up the war crimes cabinet and get the nerve gas out, so this has a decent chance of going well.

 

Not 'endured', I think the word you need is 'inured' (definition: accustom (someone) to something, especially something unpleasant).

 

There are Superheros in the room.

Give it time.

 

I'm trying to be optimistic. I don't have a lot of practice at it (though I do have some).

 

Thank you, corrected.

 

Mm. I mean it remains to be seen whether the Accala really did mean for their demands to be an excessive negotiating position, or whether OL was just being hopeful and naive. But yes, Brazil seem to at least be willing to sit at the table.

 

Getting the old runaround, eh? Understandable, but rude...

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

And likely to take the government's silence as refusal...

At least to anything they don't like... This could be quite the mess.

I don't think they care, other than 'Away.'

Heh. A nice variation of "Go back where you came from!" "But this is where I came from!"

You're assuming they're allowed to interfere? Superheroes usually don't come down on these sort of things...

Poor guy, he is not having a good day.

Uh, no? He's spent 60+ years in prison. By anyone's standards, he's served his time.

Red Tornado, Diana and Alan? Most likely. Jay Garrick and Ted Grant might have been there back then, but they aren't League members... Can't think of any other surviving All-Stars...

Ah, the actual politicians are here. Time to get started.

Boy, he's grumpy.

I suspect they think that their heads are likely to be the ones that roll, whatever happens...

A sensible distinction to make. Venom, at least, can wear off in the middle of combat...

This must be their worst nightmare: An enemy who is almost tireless, near impossible to track short of low-altitude spotters, can tear through defences with their bare hands, and have a quite large axe to grind with those in power... And the most effective response would involve war crimes.

Good to see he's not panicking. Not by the looks of that Will.

Do you want to be the nation that sets the precedent of Superhuman involvement in internal affairs? No, I didn't think so.

Now that's thinking outside the box... But I don't think he quite understands what he's asking...

Super-strong/tough soldiers, who are blank slates for military training and could probably be persuaded by the offer of a colony world of their own? It'd think so.

Beryl! I guess she's playing Good Cop to OL's Bad Cop. Or Vice-versa.

They would just laugh at the offer, methinks.

And you won't know they're there until the screaming starts.

I think they're willing to give it a day or two. Catch up with Hugo, if nothing else.

Ah, the wheels of government ever turn slowly...

Well, they're not immediately going for the military response... Presumably they're hoping to talk the tribes down, maybe to a 'cessation of all future planned clearing operations', at least. The problem is how that'll go down with the Elders...

 

I have no idea how I would resolve this situation and I'm looking forward to seeing your version, Zoat.

Can the League truly maintain it's neutrality though? Sure, technically it's covered by the charter, but people won't care. Outside or inside the League.

 

I believe the generals understand how little their military can do in this situation. Their military isn't specced for it.

 

When he talks about the level of force the Lantern Corps would need . . . Really? They're Lanterns. It can't be that hard to have a couple Lanterns just have their rings whip up some knockout gas and go from there.

Or do the kind of scans that would make it impossible for them to hide the way they could from a more conventional force. I doubt they have anti-scry wards.

Also. Fun fact. While almost every nation on the planet has signed a treaty promising to destroy their chemical weapons stockpiles, in most of the world the use of chemical weapons in a civil dispute technically isn't a war crime.

To be more specific. The use of chemical weapons is largely only considered to be a war crime if used in an international conflict. There was an amendment to the Rome Statute to explicitly include civil disputes in the banning of their use, but the amendment only applies to nations that have ratified the amendment.

Brazil has not ratified it. The only South American nations that have are Argentina, Chile, Guyana, and Uruguay.

Brazil deploying chemical weapons against these tribes might hurt their reputation, but given what's at stake they might also decide they just don't care.